We are the 53%!

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Instead we all have modified forms of capitalism. In Europe you have a free market economy that is highly taxed and used by the governments to provide socialism like benefits such as free healthcare and extensive welfare benefits. The US economy is similar, except we have less taxes and less benefits.

Taxes are like an anchor around the waist of the economy. The higher the taxes the more it hurts the economy which is why Europe with its much higher taxation has a much lower standard of living than that the US. Which is also why the US has the second highest median income in the world, despite all our illegal immigration and our vast size. The median income of the worlds 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th largest economies are only two thirds our median income, which equates to a HUGE difference in stand of living. (China is 2nd)

So what you say about other economies having all the things the protesters demand (UHC, free or cheap colleges etc etc) but they pay for these things by having a much lower standard of living.

That is probably the biggest failure of the occupy types. They want a socialistic system because they think it will result in a more even distribution of incomes, which it will, but they fail to understand that it will also result in a much lower level of income as well.

Nice spin. "Standard of living" is an extremely vague term, and apparently means whatever you want it to mean.

It depends on what you're measuring & how. The Human development index, for example, and the inequality adjusted version of the same-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

There's median household income-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

And also GDP (PPP) per capita-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP)_per_capita

The difference between median and PPP reflects an extremely skewed distribution, obviously, not to mention that the income differences can be like comparing apples and oranges. When we compare wages & benefits combined, the US isn't the workers' utopia you paint it to be-

http://www.ilwulocal142.org/boycott...-17-in-pay-a-benefits&catid=43:quiz&Itemid=68
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
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Taxes are like an anchor around the waist of the economy. The higher the taxes the more it hurts the economy which is why Europe with its much higher taxation has a much lower standard of living than that the US.

I don't know what brand of glue you've been sniffing, but Europe's advanced economies - the ones with the highest tax rates - have Human Development Indices (HDIs), "a standard means of measuring well-being" - comparable with that of the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2010_report

And when inequality in the culture is factored in, the U.S. falls down a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Inequality-adjusted_HDI

Just look at all those high-tax, socialistic, European countries giving the U.S. a run for its money. Maybe God forgot to add "low taxes" to the tablets.

Of course, well-being is a subjective thing. Maybe American citizens are much happier than everybody in those high-tax places. Yeah, maybe we ought to determine how happy everybody is.

Oops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings

In case you can't count that high (or is it low?), the U.S. is the 114th happiest country on the latest list.

But you keep trotting out those amazing economic principles of yours, PJ. You know, the ones you spout without a shred of objective evidence. The ones that just have to be true if God loves America.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
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Ok....

HDI we rank 4th
Household income we rank 2nd
GFP PPP we rank 7th
Quality-of-life Index 13th

Here are the BEST ranking of the 3-6th largest economies (Japan, Germany, France and UK)

HDI Germany is 10th
Household UK is 8th (6,000 below us)
GDP PPP Germany is 19th (10,000 below us)
Quality-of-life Index Japan 17th

The only place we do bad is the Human Poverty Index and some of that is due to odd factors.

For example, we place last in "Population below 50% of median income" which sounds bad, except we have the second highest median income in the world and half our median income still ranks as the 25th highest. So we are being penalized for the fact that 17% of country makes less than what the average person in Greece makes.



We beat the pants off every other large economy in the world.

We are by FAR the most successful county in the world economically and have the best standard of living of any large country in the world.

We are so successful that our working class have a life style similar to many of Europe's middle class citizens. In Europe between 2003-06 the average new house was less than 113 sq meters while in the US it was 214 sq meters. In the UK the average house was less than 800 sq feet! That is a one bedroom apartment in most parts of the US.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
I don't know what brand of glue you've been sniffing, but Europe's advanced economies - the ones with the highest tax rates - have Human Development Indices (HDIs), "a standard means of measuring well-being" - comparable with that of the U.S.
That is because HDI is a measure of development, but is not really useful for comparing highly developed countries to each other due to the measures it uses.


From your own link:
Economist Bryan Caplan has criticised the way HDI scores are produced; each of the three components are bounded between zero and one. As a result of that, rich countries effectively cannot improve their rating (and thus their ranking relative to other countries) in certain categories, even though there is a lot of scope for economic growth and longevity left. "This effectively means that a country of immortals with infinite per-capita GDP would get a score of .666 (lower than South Africa and Tajikistan) if its population were illiterate and never went to school."[23] He argues, "Scandinavia comes out on top according to the HDI because the HDI is basically a measure of how Scandinavian your country is."[23]
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Ok....

HDI we rank 4th
Household income we rank 2nd
GFP PPP we rank 7th
Quality-of-life Index 13th

Here are the BEST ranking of the 3-6th largest economies (Japan, Germany, France and UK)

HDI Germany is 10th
Household UK is 8th (6,000 below us)
GDP PPP Germany is 19th (10,000 below us)
Quality-of-life Index Japan 17th

The only place we do bad is the Human Poverty Index and some of that is due to odd factors.

For example, we place last in "Population below 50% of median income" which sounds bad, except we have the second highest median income in the world and half our median income still ranks as the 25th highest. So we are being penalized for the fact that 17% of country makes less than what the average person in Greece makes.



We beat the pants off every other large economy in the world.

We are by FAR the most successful county in the world economically and have the best standard of living of any large country in the world.

We are so successful that our working class have a life style similar to many of Europe's middle class citizens. In Europe between 2003-06 the average new house was less than 113 sq meters while in the US it was 214 sq meters. In the UK the average house was less than 800 sq feet! That is a one bedroom apartment in most parts of the US.

You had to cherry pick your way through the rankings to support the conclusion originally offered, PJ, and not in a convincing fashion. If anything, you contradict what you originally offered-

So what you say about other economies having all the things the protesters demand (UHC, free or cheap colleges etc etc) but they pay for these things by having a much lower standard of living.

You just demonstrated that other more socialistic economies "standard of living" isn't really "much lower", at all.
 

Ichigo

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2005
2,159
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The size of the home you own seems like sort of an arbitrary measure of standard of living. I mean, it's not irrelevant or anything but maybe Europeans don't consider it a priority?

If we choose another arbitrary measure as a primary example like ease of access to needed healthcare then suddenly it looks worse right?
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Yet again, Jhhnn has scalding hot facts thrown in his face and is unable to deal with it.

Well done PJ.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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If you all want socialism so badly, then move out of the US. This country was not founded on socialism and would not be anywhere near the standard that we have today had it not have been founded on capitalist ideas. You want something else, there are plenty of other places to live. Go to Canada if you don't want that far to go.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
If you all want socialism so badly, then move out of the US. This country was not founded on socialism and would not be anywhere near the standard that we have today had it not have been founded on capitalist ideas. You want something else, there are plenty of other places to live. Go to Canada if you don't want that far to go.

Nah... Then they would have to deal with those pesky immigration laws that other countries have and enforce.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yet again, Jhhnn has scalding hot facts thrown in his face and is unable to deal with it.

Well done PJ.

Heh.

HDI
US- .907 Germany- .888 (that's huge?)

Quality of life index 2011-

http://nationranking.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/2011-qli2.png

Not at all what PJ indicates

PPP? Not really meaningful in relation to median income-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gdp_versus_household_income.png

It just shows growing inequality.

Our cousins in the rest of the developed world live good lives, too. In many respects, their socialized system means they don't need to spend as much out of pocket for things like healthcare.

The whole reference to home size is more than slightly dishonest. Just because flimflam financing allowed the construction of enormous houses during the Ownership society doesn't mean that Americans can actually afford such homes, as we're seeing today.

We're also rich in natural resources in ways that Europeans aren't, so we have more to exploit to create prosperity.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
The German's regulations discourages home ownership and encourages renting which is probably a GOOD thing considering how it blew up in our faces. Comparing home sizes as a measure between the countries is dumb as fuck when it doesn't really have anything to do with how well they live their lives (and especially since you don't factor in the economic damage that the real estate bust had in the US).
 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,671
1
0
These people seem to have all made horrible decisions and are somehow proud that they manage to pay income tax when they are treated like slaves and can barely survive...they should be taking advantage of the deficit while they can.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
If you all want socialism so badly, then move out of the US. This country was not founded on socialism and would not be anywhere near the standard that we have today had it not have been founded on capitalist ideas. You want something else, there are plenty of other places to live. Go to Canada if you don't want that far to go.

The US has socialism- socialism for the Rich. TANF was a great example of that, as was the 100% bailout of AIG, the banks, and the investors in GSE paper. The 15% federal tax rate on dividends & capital gains is another example.

We also have other forms of socialism, some of them with us from the beginning, like the idea of the Commons, of shared resources. Then there are all the federal highway, flood control & irrigation projects, not to mention the FBI, CDC, FDA & a few dozen others.

Maybe we should just let capitalists hire Pinkertons to bust the balls off labor & bring back patent medicines, too... Meat inspection? who needs it? The sacred Free Market will solve all problems!

SS is a form of socialism, supported by regressive taxation, oddly enough, not to mention air traffic control & even Customs- free market capitalists do believe in the free flow of goods & labor, right? So why do we have Customs? How could we possibly object to the importation of cheap labor or any sort of goods?

Leave the country? Really? Why should I? If corporations are persons, then real people should at least have the same right to speak, to influence legislation, to affect change as much as constructs of the monied elite, shouldn't we? Or is patriotism now a function of wealth & power, rather than a desire for all Americans to do well in a society not built on economic slavery?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
You just demonstrated that other more socialistic economies "standard of living" isn't really "much lower", at all.
Median household income
US 31,111
UK 25,000
Germany 21,000
France 19,000
Japan 19,000


I don't know about you buy there is a HUGE difference between 31,000 a year and 21,000 a year.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Median household income
US 31,111
UK 25,000
Germany 21,000
France 19,000
Japan 19,000


I don't know about you buy there is a HUGE difference between 31,000 a year and 21,000 a year.

Within a given society, for sure. Household income doesn't account for differences in the number of hours worked in one country vs another, for example, or the amount of paid vacation and family leave provided, either.

http://20somethingfinance.com/american-hours-worked-productivity-vacation/

Europeans have a different balance between work and leisure, and aren't doing nearly as badly as the numbers you provide would suggest when we consider that along with the average compensation per hour-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensation_of_Employees_%28per_hour)
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
What you Tea Party morons who aren't part of the top 5% don't realize is that you guys are the useful idiots. The Republican and Tea Party base probably has no idea just how much contempt the top 5% has for them.

Yet they are ignorant enough to keep backing them but in their defense more and more are defecting ;)
 

VtPC83

Senior member
Mar 5, 2008
447
12
81
It sounds like no one understands why these protests are going on and just want to blame it on college kids with nothing better to do.

These 53% people definitely don't understand.

The protests are not about getting handouts from the government or from the rich. The heart of these protests is to bring to light that corporations and Wall Street are taking advantage of the middle class by playing with their money. Then when they lose that money they don't seem to care or want to try to help reclaim it, they just want to either get a bailout from the Gov't or they want to ignore and keep trying to make money.

This isn't about the middle class versus the rich. This is about citizens standing up for themselves against CORPORATIONS that prey on them without any reprecussions. It so happens that rich folks are at the head of the corporations.

I also find it ironic that most right wingers are freaking out about these protests calling them jobloss college kids who want a handout. No they don't, thats only be said to discredit them in the eyes of other republicans who don't know any better.
 

RedString

Senior member
Feb 24, 2011
299
0
0
They aren't against billionaires, you idiot. They are against the corrupt and parasitic relationship big banks have with the government and the rest of society.

This.


I don't understand why people keep putting words in their mouth. I'm assuming they watch one youtube video of 2 or 3 people saying something and they attribute it to the entire Occupy Wallstreet collective.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
These 'we are the 53 percent' people are so fucking sad, it's killing me. Most of those pictures are from people who are admitting that their lives suck and that they are getting fucked by our system, yet they wear their victimhood as a badge of honor.

"look how shitty my life is at work!" is some sort of rallying call for people desperately trying to convince themselves that our system is fairly balanced will reward them someday for being so miserable. The joke is on them and they don't even know it.
 

novasatori

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
3,851
1
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I noticed looking through them, that they seem to accept the fact any poor decisions or outcomes are theirs to own.

So why not for corporations and banks?

o_O