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We ARE so lucky, Amnest Bill has started its deathrattle today

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Well then, let's open up the season, sell licences, and put a bounty on the illegals...
$1000.00 for the licence,
$50. for each one you bring in alive,
$45.00 for each dead one,
but if you bring a dead one that's actually legal, it costs you $5.00.
Baiting is legal...

/me envisions the lines of red-necks waiting to buy a licence...





BTW, before this gets me a vacation...PLEEZE check yer sarcasm meter...
I DO NOT advocate killing other humans, even the crimmigrant ones...However, there are certain conditions in which it IS legal to kill someone...and that I support. This simply is not one of those conditions...
 
This issue is not going anywhere, which is a good thing, because it's a nice wedge between the business and the conservative wings of the GOP.
 
And the president said, "Congress' failure to act on it is a disappointment."

Get used to it Dumbya: the rest of us've had plenty of disappointment over the last 6 years.
 
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Well then, let's open up the season, sell licences, and put a bounty on the illegals...
$1000.00 for the licence,
$50. for each one you bring in alive,
$45.00 for each dead one,
but if you bring a dead one that's actually legal, it costs you $5.00.
Baiting is legal...

/me envisions the lines of red-necks waiting to buy a licence...





BTW, before this gets me a vacation...PLEEZE check yer sarcasm meter...
I DO NOT advocate killing other humans, even the crimmigrant ones...However, there are certain conditions in which it IS legal to kill someone...and that I support. This simply is not one of those conditions...


You must be proud of yourself. Very proud.

Disgusting.


 
AS long as there are hundreds of billions of dollars to be made by Corporations if the bill is passed, or some verison of it, the bill is NOT dead.
Yet those who are typically pro-corporation, mainly Republicans, have fought to kill the bill in its current form...and if anything, have pushed for changes to the bill that would arguably be anti-corporation, as more restrictive and punitive measures would essentially eliminate the low-wage labor pool in this country.

 
Originally posted by: techs
With the massive amounts of money the Corporations are pouring into this attempt to replace American workers with cheaper imports it will be difficult to kill this bill.

That massive amount of money will be shifted toward outsourcing jobs. If they can't get the cheap labor force here then they'll move jobs out in greater numbers.

 
Immigration -- Bush's domestic Iraq
Ten Similarities

The rigid thinking leading us to failure in the Mideast spawned 'comprehensive immigration reform.'

By Mickey Kaus

June 4, 2007

MAINSTREAM editorialists like to praise President Bush's immigration initiative as an expression of his pragmatic, bipartisan, "compassionate conservative" side, in presumed contrast to the inflexible, ideological approach that produced the invasion of Iraq. But far from being a sensible centrist departure from the sort of grandiose, rigid thinking that led Bush into Iraq, "comprehensive immigration reform" is of a piece with that thinking. And it's likely to lead to a parallel outcome.



1. They're both ideas Bush had when he came into office. Former Bush speechwriter David Frum wrote about his first Oval Office meeting with Bush, a few weeks into Bush's presidency, at which the president explained his "determination to dig Saddam Hussein out of power in Iraq." About the same time, Bush was meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox to try to hammer out an immigration deal that would combine a guest worker program with legalization of existing illegal Mexican immigrants. (This was all before 9/11, although in both cases Bush has claimed that 9/11 made essential what he wanted to do all along. Funny how that happens.)

2. They both have an idealistic basis. Bush was sympathetic to the way Middle East democrats had been frustrated by "realist" foreign policies, and he's clearly sympathetic to the problems of poor immigrants who come to the U.S. to work and feed their families, only to be forced to live "in the shadows." Those who have doubts about Bush's plans (e.g., Brent Scowcroft on Iraq) get little sympathy from him, however. They're seen not as prudent realists but as cultural imperialists, even racists: What, you think Iraqis are incapable of democracy? What, you think the immigrants from south of the border are any different from previous immigrants?

3. They both seek, in one swoop, to achieve a grand solution to a persistent, difficult problem. No "smallball!" The Iraq Project was going to begin the transformation of the Middle East, an area that had frustrated president after president. Similarly, "comprehensive" immigration reform would, as the name suggests, resolve in one bold bill the centuries-old immigration issue ? "solve this problem once and for all," as Bush said last week.

4. Both envision a complicated, triple-bank-shot chain of events happening on cue. Iraqis were going to be grateful to their American liberators, come together in peace and give us a stable "ally in the war on terror," setting off a democratic domino effect in the region ? a scenario that seems like highly wishful thinking in retrospect. Latinos, in the Bush immigration scenario, will be grateful to Republicans for bringing them out of the shadows, etc., ensuring a large, growing GOP Latino vote for decades to come. Meanwhile, a program of legal guest workers will somehow stop new illegal workers from crossing the border to join them.

5. Both depend crucially on pulling off difficult administrative feats. In Iraq, we had to build a nation in the chaotic vacuum of sectarian post-Hussein Iraq ? which meant training a national army and police force from scratch with recruits who were often sectarian loyalists. "Comprehensive" immigration reform requires the government to set up an enforcement mechanism that can prevent millions of impoverished foreigners from sneaking across thousands of miles of unprotected borders ? and prevent America's millions of self-interested employers from hiring them. Meanwhile, the overworked, incompetent federal immigration bureaucracy is going to efficiently sort out the 12 million illegals already here ? "Non-Immigrants Previously in Unlawful Status," to use the official Prince-like euphemism ? running background checks by the next business day and issuing each of them a new, "probationary Z-visa."

6. In both cases, the solution has failed before. The British failed to "stand up" democracy in Iraq. We failed to do the same in Vietnam and also failed to establish stable, trans-factional governing structures in Lebanon and Somalia. Likewise, the grand, bipartisan Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform of 1986 had promised, and failed, to establish an effective immigration enforcement mechanism.

7. In both cases, some Bush plan enthusiasts may not really mind a chaotic end result. Iraq war foes argue that some important neocon supporters of the Iraq war weren't really bothered by the prospect of Sunni-versus-Shiite warfare ? even seeing divide-and-conquer advantages. Similarly, there's the suspicion that many supporters of Bush's immigration plan won't really be bothered if the enforcement parts of the law fail to stop the flow of new illegals. Employers, for one, would get additional inexpensive, willing workers.

8. In both cases, less grand, less risky alternatives are available. Bush could have kept Saddam Hussein boxed up while he planned regime change through other means and pursued the more manageable war in Afghanistan. ("Smallball" in 2002. Sounds good now!) Similarly, Bush could put enforcement mechanisms in place and make sure they work before he potentially stimulates a huge new wave of illegal immigrants by rewarding those illegals who've already made it across the border.

9. In both cases, Bush's sales pitch excludes these middle alternatives. With Hussein, it was war or capitulation. With immigration, we're told, the only choices are legalization or mass deportation.

10. In both cases the consequences of losing the grand Bush bet are severe. Bush himself is busy these days describing the debacle that his big Iraq bet has now made possible: a government "overrun by extremists on all sides ? an epic battle between Shia extremists backed by Iran, and Sunni extremists aided by Al Qaeda." Possibly "the entire region could be drawn into the conflict."

The equivalent disaster scenario on immigration would go something like this: "Comprehensive reform" passes. The 12 million illegals are legalized as planned. But the untested enforcement provisions prove no more effective than they've been in the past ? or else they are crippled by ACLU-style lawsuits and lobbying (as in the past). Legal guest workers enter the country to work, but so do millions of new illegal workers, drawn by the near-certain prospect that they too, some day, will be considered too numerous to deport. Soon we have another 12 million illegals, or more. Wages for unskilled low-income American and immigrant workers are depressed. As a result, in parts of L.A., visible contrasts of wealth and poverty reach near-Latin American levels.

And, yes, the majority of the new illegals are from one country, Mexico ? a nation with a not-implausible claim on large chunks of the Southwestern U.S. For the first time, a neighboring country will have a continuing hold on the loyalties ? and language ? of a majority of residents in some states, with the potential for Quebec-like problems, and worse, down the road.

Hey, stuff happens!

If both grand Bush plans fail, which disaster will be bigger? Iraq, obviously, at least in the sense that tens of thousands will have died. But we can retreat from Iraq. We won't be able to retreat from the failure of Bush's immigration plan because it will change who "we" are.
 
Originally posted by: babylon5
Immigration -- Bush's domestic Iraq
Ten Similarities

The rigid thinking leading us to failure in the Mideast spawned 'comprehensive immigration reform.'
...

That is an excellent analysis. Too good, in fact, to hide in this thread - I think it deserves a thread of its own.
 
Originally posted by: hellokeith
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Genx87
We wont displace 12 million people and have no hope of catching them. I think one of the biggest problems with my side of the aisle is our desire to punish these people beyond reasonable means. Look they are here, they broke a law. Make them pay a fine, get them a visa, and get them assimilated into our society. If they close the border down to the point where the influx of people is minimal compared to now we shouldnt have millions of people breaking our laws coming here.</end quote></div>

Imposing a fine serves no purpose, because they will never pay it. They already broke the law and will continue breaking any related legislation until they get straight up freebee amnesty.

If we closeup their opportunity to work by vigorously going after the employers, and we very publicly start deporting them, then most will leave peacefully on their own accord.

I am so glad this bill is dead. The power of talk radio was key.

To you maybe. Did you or anyone else really need to hear it on talk radio to get that this was a terrible Bill.

 
Originally posted by: Darthvoy
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Score one for America today!:thumbsup:

no, not really. For now, things will stay as they are.

One thing at a time. I'm sorry but the shamnesty bill had to go.
Now it's time to demand border security from our politicians!!!!
 
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: hellokeith
Originally posted by: Genx87
We wont displace 12 million people and have no hope of catching them. I think one of the biggest problems with my side of the aisle is our desire to punish these people beyond reasonable means. Look they are here, they broke a law. Make them pay a fine, get them a visa, and get them assimilated into our society. If they close the border down to the point where the influx of people is minimal compared to now we shouldnt have millions of people breaking our laws coming here.

Imposing a fine serves no purpose, because they will never pay it. They already broke the law and will continue breaking any related legislation until they get straight up freebee amnesty.

If we closeup their opportunity to work by vigorously going after the employers, and we very publicly start deporting them, then most will leave peacefully on their own accord.

I am so glad this bill is dead. The power of talk radio was key.

To you maybe. Did you or anyone else really need to hear it on talk radio to get that this was a terrible Bill.

I thought you knew that we can't voice an opinion until Rush gives it to us 😉
 
We will never secure our borders because we never can. The border is thousands of miles long and is impossible to completely secure at a reasonable price. For all the talk about hating gays and terrists the Republicans are first and foremost corporate whores. Companies want illegal immigrants for cheap work. Democrats will never crack down on illegals either for bleeding heart humanitarian reasons.

The immigration "problem" will never end until American wages decrease and Central and South American wages increase to a closer level.
 
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: shrumpage
Everyone wants to blame business for hiring illegals - has it occurred to anyone it is ILLEGAL for a employer to ask if a person is a U.S. Citizen.

How can we hold business reasonable, when they can get sued for evening asking about it?</end quote></div>
EVERY job application I have filled out since the 80's has asked if I can LEGALLY work in the US.

I guess you didn't read the spanish version. 😛
 
Originally posted by: Harvey
It's dead, Jim

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Senate blocks immigration bill


By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Senate drove a stake Thursday through President Bush's plan to legalize millions of unlawful immigrants, likely postponing major action on immigration until after the 2008 elections.

The bill's supporters fell 14 votes short of the 60 needed to limit debate and clear the way for final passage of the legislation, which critics assailed as offering amnesty to illegal immigrants. The vote was 46 to 53 in favor of limiting the debate.
.
.
(continues)</end quote></div>
I'm a lib who thinks this bill sucked, and I'm glad it's dead. Allowing those who entered the country illegally to cut in line to gain citizenship is manifestly unfair to those who did it legally and to all those who are still trying to do so. It undermines the basic principle of equal justice under law.

Well said..
 
Originally posted by: loki8481
does anyone really think it's a practical idea to try and deport every single illegal alien in the US right now?
As others with IQ's over 100 have stated. You make it illegal (as it should be) to employ illegal aliens by fining the hell out of companies that hire them. (Sending a bill is easy) They will stop hiring them.

With no job or money they will leave on their own or apply for work permits or citizenship legally PERIOD
 
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Originally posted by: loki8481
does anyone really think it's a practical idea to try and deport every single illegal alien in the US right now?
As others with IQ's over 100 have stated. You make it illegal (as it should be) to employ illegal aliens by fining the hell out of companies that hire them. (Sending a bill is easy) They will stop hiring them.

With no job or money they will leave on their own or apply for work permits or citizenship legally PERIOD

I feel like I should preface this by saying I've been paying just about no attention to the illegal immigration issue 😛 I don't live in a border state and I've never felt like my job was in peril due to illegal immigrats, so it's not something I feel particularly strongly about in either direction... but won't there be a ripple effect if we suddenly loose 7-20 million people from our workforce overnight, especially the otherwise-law-abiding migrants who've been the backbone of some low-paying industries?
 
Originally posted by: loki8481
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TheSlamma
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: loki8481
does anyone really think it's a practical idea to try and deport every single illegal alien in the US right now?</end quote></div>
As others with IQ's over 100 have stated. You make it illegal (as it should be) to employ illegal aliens by fining the hell out of companies that hire them. (Sending a bill is easy) They will stop hiring them.

With no job or money they will leave on their own or apply for work permits or citizenship legally PERIOD
</end quote></div>

I feel like I should preface this by saying I've been paying just about no attention to the illegal immigration issue 😛 I don't live in a border state and I've never felt like my job was in peril due to illegal immigrats, so it's not something I feel particularly strongly about in either direction... but won't there be a ripple effect if we suddenly loose 7-20 million people from our workforce overnight, especially the otherwise-law-abiding migrants who've been the backbone of some low-paying industries?

Who knows, probably. But that same argument was probably made when it came to abolishing racism (I'm not insinuating anything here btw), but it was still the right thing to do. Right now we have an underclass that works for lower wages than should be acceptable. People will fill those jobs that were vacated by the illegals, but it will be Americans working for decent wages. If the only way that an industry can survive is by paying slave wages, it doesn't deserve to survive. But like anything, industry will adapt, and life will go on. All IMO of course.
 
Two BIG problems, not getting into the issue, but pre-issue no go's.
One, congress is NEVER for anything that doesn?t line their pockets with $$$$ ($$$$$$$$$$), so why do they want this???? What are they NOT telling us???

Two, most think this bill just concerns and applies to illegal?s. Not so...
Every American would be required to jump thru the hoops and go thru the hassles,
not just illegal?s. So because business loves cheap labor and breaking laws, we will all suffer and there goes more of the freedoms.
 
I can't blame Mexicans for wanting to come here and have a better life for themselves and their families, but on the other hand, they are breaking the law. If someone came here illegally for work, they should be fined, and be required to learn some English. Maybe even deported for a minimum of 6 months. If I want to learn Spanish, I have to pay for it. If they want to learn English, it's free. (In most cases. At least where I live.) And I'm fine with that. I really don't like going to my local hardware store and seeing signs in Spanish, and hearing announcements in Spanish. They need to learn English. It's called "integrating."

Employers who knowingly hire illegals, on the other hand, should be fined out the wahoo.
 
Originally posted by: Termagant
We will never secure our borders because we never can. The border is thousands of miles long and is impossible to completely secure at a reasonable price. For all the talk about hating gays and terrists the Republicans are first and foremost corporate whores. Companies want illegal immigrants for cheap work. Democrats will never crack down on illegals either for bleeding heart humanitarian reasons.

The immigration "problem" will never end until American wages decrease and Central and South American wages increase to a closer level.

1. We can secure the border, we have the technology to do so.

2. If Republicans are the corporate whores behind this then how come its Republicans defeating the bill? It is being pushed by a Republican President but its the Democrats in Congress leading the charge. Whose whore are they?


Got to laugh at your last line. Its all about standard of living, wages have a small part in that, but many come here and never leave as our way of life is addicting.
 
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