We’re on the verge of a great, great depression. The [Federal Reserve] knows it.

[matt0611]

In other words, a certain level of stimulus after a crash limited the economy getting worse; when that stimulus was reduced, things got worse; and when that stimulus was greatly increased, for throwing vast sums down the toilet for war but strengthening the US manufacturing and workforce, including stimulus like the GI bill, it led to historic prosperity in a repaired economy. And today, economists are saying the stimulus is too small. Others can learn a lesson there.

The crash where we did the most drastic government interference, spending and control of the economy lasted for over ten years so we should do what they did.
(and don't you dare say that they did not spend enough money)

Yet there were other crashes that were just as big, if not bigger, than the great depression (like in 1920) and somehow, someway, the economy fixed itself without any government interference.
How could this possibly be?!!?

But nooo, we are doing the right thing now you say! Don't you see?!!? The economy was getting better, we just need more! more more more! More spending programs, more deficits, more money printing!

Its weird that only AFTER there was a massive DECREASE in government spending when WWII ended that the economy started to pick up again. When money actually flowed back into the private sector, and hundreds of thousands of government workers were let go.

Yet, the depression that was the worst in our countries history is the one we are supposed to model our government actions from. Could it be that the government actually PROLONGED the great depression from all the interference they did? And that we are, in fact, repeating the SAME mistakes that they did?

 

[theeedude]

Yeah, right now. I love that little caveat you threw in there because it's true and we both agree on it. Right now it is manageable, but NOT after you finish printing money EACH and EVERY year to keep the government-run economy going.

You have to pull the plug now.

No, you pull the plug when the economy recovers, and not before. What you are suggesting is like a malnourished person to go on a diet now because if they keep eating they may one day get obese.

 

[Zebo]

LOL @ comparing anytime pre 45 to today were we are now a nation where the private sector's sales and profits supported the public sector in its first 230 years of existence and mainly in debt. You just don't get it. Back then capital was flowing to America, now it is flowing to the rest of the world. We were a low leveraged production economy and are now a MASSIVLY leveraged consumer based economy. You're not in Kansas anymore.

 

[dmcowen674]

Great article today on how Teddy Roosevelt knew the Corporations would spell the end of the U.S.

6-2-2011

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucru/201106...lYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGVkZHlyb29zZXZl

TEDDY ROOSEVELT SAW THIS COMING


"The great corporations which we have grown to speak of rather loosely as trusts are the creatures of the State, and the State not only has the right to control them wherever need of such control is shown but it is in duty bound to control them," he said in 1901.

Why did our political system become so corrupt and unresponsive?

How did we end up with such a rigid, Old European-style class system--in which you can't get ahead unless you were born that way?

The result of unbridled corporate corruption is disparity of wealth worse than much of the Third World, and 20 percent unemployment.

 

[Thump553]

Reading through some of these comments I chanced upon an easy way to wealth.

Tin foil futures.

 

[Doppel]

No, you pull the plug when the economy recovers, and not before. What you are suggesting is like a malnourished person to go on a diet now because if they keep eating they may one day get obese.

Can you define this point? The government has been running stimulus (debt-based spending) for a good decade now. When exactly is this magical point at which it will suddenly try and balance the budget if it hasn't been able to in a decade? The government has no realistic plan to reign in spending. We all know this, including the ratings agencies who've now started to warn the government more directly that it needs to buck up or suffer a downgrade in coming years.

 

[boomerang]

It's Official: The Left Is Out of Ideas

"the SS Liberal has officially run out of steam."

CNBC reports that the private sector job market is still shrinking, with employers announcing over 37,000 more job cuts this month. That's up nearly 2% since April. In addition, Forbes reveals that home prices have dropped to their 2002 levels, falling another 4.2% in the first quarter of 2011. David Blitzer, Chairman of the Index Committee at S&P Indices, released a chilling statement that, "This month's report is marked by the confirmation of a double-dip in home prices across much of the nation."

Any rational person hoping that we were righting our economic ship knows the words "double-dip" signify the exact opposite. Of course, not all numbers are down.

Government statistics show the number of food stamp recipients is at an all time high -- up 39% since Barack Obama took office. And though things are lean in the private sector, it's never been a better time to be employed by the federal government. Beyond just salaries soaring to the point where roughly 77,000 federal employees are making more money than state governors, a new study has found there has been a 73% increase in the amount of federally owned limousines to cart our central planning VIPs through the streets of the peasantry.

Along those streets, it's a different story. Bloomberg reports that as jobless claims jumped another 10,000 last month, "more Americans than forecast filed applications for unemployment benefits last week, a sign the labor market is struggling to gain momentum."

With economic numbers like these, it's no wonder that liberal commentators are advising Barack Obama -- the man who got elected as the anti-war president -- to run for re-election on his record as a war commander. Still, some left-wing economists aren't ready to give up the ship.

Take Paul Krugman, the intrepid little socialist and Nobel laureate who writes for the New York Times. Faced with the abject failure of the very excessive government spending he has promoted as the solution to our economic woes, Krugman's allegiance to Keynesian Obamanomics nevertheless remains undaunted. That might be admirable if it wasn't so foolhardy.

His recent column is the best evidence yet that when it comes to stimulating economic recovery, the left is simply out of ideas. Far from innovative, creative, or progressive, Krugman actually proposes bringing back one of the greatest failures of FDR's New Deal. He writes, "We could have W.P.A.-type programs putting the unemployed to work doing useful things like repairing roads -- which would also, by raising incomes, make it easier for households to pay down debt."

For those unfamiliar, the Works Progress Administration was a controversial policy of the 1930s to put unemployed people to work doing various construction projects just so the government could give them a paycheck. Yes, sometimes that meant doing constructive things like building roads and highways. But more often, it included boondoggles like hiring one group to go out and dig a ditch, while hiring another to come through after them and fill in the ditch. The object was to put people to work so you could pay them -- the job they were doing was not important.

Did the WPA work? Nope. When FDR initiated it, unemployment was around 20%. Three years later, unemployment was around 19%. In the intervening 75 years, most rational people have figured out why it failed. Government jobs are paid from the general tax revenue that is created and produced only by the private sector. Thus, a plan like the WPA did nothing to generate prosperity, but rather merely allocated what was already there. Once the ditch was dug or the road resurfaced, the job disappeared and we were right back to where we started.

Not to mention that such a program cost an enormous amount of money to maintain. As our private sector continues to shrink under the backward policies of this administration, I'm not sure where Krugman thinks we will find the money to finance more government workers.

Yet this futility is all that remains in the left's idea bag. The only thing that is unclear is whether Americans will recognize it.

 

[Doppel]

Templeton's legendary chairman Mark Mobius: "There Is Definitely Going To Be Another Financial Crisis"

I wonder why...nothing has changed since the last one expect the DEBT has only INCREASED.....same bankers in place...same rules in place...same trash in the books...

I've been saying this since it began. Nothing changed to fix the underlying cause and thus there's no reason to think it won't happen again. The only thing that's changed it the particular trick (sub prime crap mortgages) are now more or less gone. The banks are still being given a pass on anything and everything and they have been taught that they are too big to fail and won't be let to fall no matter what they do. And the concentration of wealth is in fact greater, it's preposterous.

 

[Doppel]

It's Official: The Left Is Out of Ideas

"the SS Liberal has officially run out of steam."

The way things are looking Obama is going to really have his work cut out for himself trying to explain to the masses next year why the economy is still a complete cluster fvck for them and that "hey, I just need more time". They are stupid, the populous, but not that stupid. They will revolt and go...for republicans. Like I said, they're stupid. And the republicans will do the same thing Obama is doing, which is the same thing Bush was doing.

 

[dmcowen674]

Unemployment jumping, housing crashing even harder, jobs still going overseas.

So now that Obama is cooked, what great Republican will come in and fix this especially since it was 8 years of Bush and Republican rule that caused this to begin with?

What will the next great Republican do to fix this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110603/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_economy

Unemployment rate ticks up to 9.1 pct


Employers hired only 54,000 new workers in May, the fewest in eight months, and the unemployment rate rose to 9.1 percent. The Labor Department report offered startling evidence that the U.S. economy is slowing,

The pace of hiring has slowed sharply from the previous three months, when the economy added an average of 220,000 new jobs. Private companies hired only 83,000 new workers in May — the fewest in nearly a year.

 

[Jaskalas]

Can you define this point? The government has been running stimulus (debt-based spending) for a good decade now. When exactly is this magical point at which it will suddenly try and balance the budget if it hasn't been able to in a decade? The government has no realistic plan to reign in spending. We all know this, including the ratings agencies who've now started to warn the government more directly that it needs to buck up or suffer a downgrade in coming years.

Well... as much as I detest the notion, I will point out that last time I compared our WW2 spending to today's GDP, we would have to spend a $4 trillion stimulus if that was ever going to work. Problem is, it may not necessarily work for the circumstances are still quite different.

Their proposal, if matching WW2 as if it's the correct theory to apply, would need another $3 trillion in direct spending.

 

[Zebo]

It's Official: The Left Is Out of Ideas

"the SS Liberal has officially run out of steam."

Right wing clap trap that doesn't even understand the issues.

1. What party is responsible for America becoming an ever growing MASSIVELY leveraged consumer based economy - instead of a production based low leverage economy?

2. What party is responsible for UNPRECEDENTED amout of borrowing....at every level...without borrowing, much of our consumption or lifestyle these past 30 years would have never been possible?

3. What party is responsible for finally cutting off credit to main street and many are having to adjust to much lower incomes and revenues?

4. What party is responsible for bailing out the chosen few criminals in Wall Street and bankers to tune of 5-6 Trillion and leaving main street out?

5. What party is responsible for putting us in 14.7 trillion in debt to the richest people in America and the world? Taking ~20% of our tax receipts, paying them instead of used for current services?

6. What party is responsible for government spending becoming our hole economy, 7.5 trillion, without which we don't have much of an economy left?

 

[werepossum]

We can start with all the fraudsters. I believe Bill Black, S&L Chief prosecutor, when he says he could indict 10x more this time around. Throw them in jail and take everything they own. Rule of law must be upheld or it's meaningless not to mention moral hazardish.

Course politicians have compromised the system to be compromised as well so I won't hold my breath.

To big to fail and to big to be prosecuted.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...tion-over-mortgage-securities-hintz-says.html

Prepare folks...when criminals are running the country/economy you will get blunked.

Works for me. Too big to fail, too big to be prosecuted, too big to not get our bonuses.

In other words, a certain level of stimulus after a crash limited the economy getting worse; when that stimulus was reduced, things got worse; and when that stimulus was greatly increased, for throwing vast sums down the toilet for war but strengthening the US manufacturing and workforce, including stimulus like the GI bill, it led to historic prosperity in a repaired economy. And today, economists are saying the stimulus is too small. Others can learn a lesson there.

Actual wealth creation, even for war, is much difference than government hand-out programs.

Well... as much as I detest the notion, I will point out that last time I compared our WW2 spending to today's GDP, we would have to spend a $4 trillion stimulus if that was ever going to work. Problem is, it may not necessarily work for the circumstances are still quite different.

Their proposal, if matching WW2 as if it's the correct theory to apply, would need another $3 trillion in direct spending.

Indeed. Even if we had the credit to borrow and spend additional trillions, today most of our consumer spending and an increasing amount of our commercial and industrial spending goes to foreign firms. China's economy would be stimulated, our economy would be starved of cash and credit.

 

[Linflas]

Right wing clap trap that doesn't even understand the issues.

1. What party is responsible for America becoming an ever growing MASSIVELY leveraged consumer based economy - instead of a production based low leverage economy?

2. What party is responsible for UNPRECEDENTED amout of borrowing....at every level...without borrowing, much of our consumption or lifestyle these past 30 years would have never been possible?

3. What party is responsible for finally cutting off credit to main street and many are having to adjust to much lower incomes and revenues?

4. What party is responsible for bailing out the chosen few criminals in Wall Street and bankers to tune of 5-6 Trillion and leaving main street out?

5. What party is responsible for putting us in 14.7 trillion in debt to the richest people in America and the world? Taking ~20% of our tax receipts, paying them instead of used for current services?

6. What party is responsible for government spending becoming our hole economy, 7.5 trillion, without which we don't have much of an economy left?

What is Democrats and Republicans for 1000 Alex? You have to be wearing partisan blinders to believe that all of the above has not been the result of the actions and policies of both parties over the past 100 years.

 

[BeauJangles]

Unemployment jumping, housing crashing even harder, jobs still going overseas.

So now that Obama is cooked, what great Republican will come in and fix this especially since it was 8 years of Bush and Republican rule that caused this to begin with?

What will the next great Republican do to fix this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110603/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_economy

Unemployment rate ticks up to 9.1 pct


Employers hired only 54,000 new workers in May, the fewest in eight months, and the unemployment rate rose to 9.1 percent. The Labor Department report offered startling evidence that the U.S. economy is slowing,

The pace of hiring has slowed sharply from the previous three months, when the economy added an average of 220,000 new jobs. Private companies hired only 83,000 new workers in May — the fewest in nearly a year.

Can I has proof for $5 gas?

Purrrty pleaze?

 

[Zebo]

What is Democrats and Republicans for 1000 Alex? You have to be wearing partisan blinders to believe that all of the above has not been the result of the actions and policies of both parties over the past 100 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX7M3w02Bfw&feature=player_embedded

 

[Zebo]

"never" is an awful long time...I have high hopes unlike these pessimists. Economics is about money velocity. For instance - let's say a few people had all of the money supply in America and wasn't lending or spending the whole economy and work trickles to a stand still... How you get that moving so people "do" is the only question - and the past is your guide.

More Americans Think Economy Will Never Recover

 

[dmcowen674]

Can I has proof for $5 gas?

Purrrty pleaze?

Just come on over to Chicago and fill up at any of the stations around the core. I am on north side near North Ave and Clyburn. There is a variety of stations all closer to $5 than they are $4.50 now.

Also I have posted links of articles with pictures by paid Journalists from the local Media such as Sun Times etc.

 

[Doppel]

blah blah.

So, in other words no.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

The fact that people like Krugman are still on the Keynesian bandwagon just goes to show you that some people will never learn no matter how much reality slaps them in the face. At this point we have shot our wad and there are no more gimmicks to provide short term boosts in the economy.

Since the short and medium term outlook is shit anyway we might as well focus on policy changes that will help the economy in the long run and try to lay the ground work for a real recovery in a few years.

 

[Jhhnn]

Its weird that only AFTER there was a massive DECREASE in government spending when WWII ended that the economy started to pick up again. When money actually flowed back into the private sector, and hundreds of thousands of government workers were let go.

How nice of you to parrot the latest talking point of the right wing echo chamber.

America was awash with pent up demand because of strict rationing during the war. Workers had lots of cash savings they hadn't been able to spend.

And offshore demand for American goods was huge, given that we were the only industrial power to emerge intact from the war.

Take your false equivalency somewhere else.

 

[Zebo]

The fact that people like Krugman are still on the Keynesian bandwagon just goes to show you that some people will never learn no matter how much reality slaps them in the face. At this point we have shot our wad and there are no more gimmicks to provide short term boosts in the economy.

Since the short and medium term outlook is shit anyway we might as well focus on policy changes that will help the economy in the long run and try to lay the ground work for a real recovery in a few years.

Nothing wrong with Keynesian economics. We don't practice it though no matter what they call it. We practice half of it, the easy part.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It's Official: The Left Is Out of Ideas

"the SS Liberal has officially run out of steam."

It's a shame that the Right doesn't have any worthwhile ideas either. Perhaps that's because both sides essentially advocate similar economic policies--allow foreign outsourcing, allow mass immigration, allow American displacement by H-1B and L-1 visas, allow exposure to global labor arbitrage.

 

[BeauJangles]

Just come on over to Chicago and fill up at any of the stations around the core.

I didn't realize that Chicago represented all of American.

AAA finds that the average price for gas in Chicago ranges from $3.85 - $4.25.

I am on north side near North Ave and Clyburn.

Great, I'm in Boston right off of Commonwealth Avenue. That has nothing to do with the average price of gas across the nation.

There is a variety of stations all closer to $5 than they are $4.50 now.

So even in Chicago gas isn't at $5? Why are you still arguing with me? You've just admitted that you're wrong.

Also I have posted links of articles with pictures by paid Journalists from the local Media such as Sun Times etc.

Sure. I've posted studies conducted by both the government and AAA which have documented the price of gas since 2001 by polling nearly 10,000 gas stations every month. The price of gas (regular OR premium) has never hit $5 nationally.

 

[Craig234]

Well... as much as I detest the notion, I will point out that last time I compared our WW2 spending to today's GDP, we would have to spend a $4 trillion stimulus if that was ever going to work. Problem is, it may not necessarily work for the circumstances are still quite different.

Their proposal, if matching WW2 as if it's the correct theory to apply, would need another $3 trillion in direct spending.

A big difference is that while WWII got manufacturnig going and such, the products were wasted - bombs, bullets, tanks.

A stimulus for infrastructure would be far more productive so you get the same benefit for a lot less money.

But as economists say, more is needed that what has been done.