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[wccftech] rumor: amd hawaii benchmarked in 3dmark11 firestrike AMD attacks titan

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No, it's what is logical for AMD in it's current state.
logical for AMD. what a load of crap ? So if AMD's Hawaii is a big die GPU which competes with GK110 / Titan, does that mean you are more logical than AMD's GPU division and management. you never cease to amaze me.
5870 has exactly what in common with the 9xxx series?
Why didn't you use the 6xxx or 7xxx series as an example? Why go all the way back to the 5xxx series?
If you can find the press event dates for HD 6970 and HD 7970 I am glad. all i wanted to say is its normal that we see cards available for purchase in retail and launch reviews 2 - 3 weeks after sep 25th. if you believe Hawaii is launching on Dec 31st 2013 or later, keep at it. :thumbsup:
Lets please not make this about me. I know it's hard, but try.
:thumbsdown:
 
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It's also confirmed it will support DX11.1, which only AMD supports fully and Dice has said will have a lower CPU overhead

http://www.techpowerup.com/187812/b...x-11-1-could-give-radeon-hd-7000-an-edge.html

...Running the game with DirectX 11.1 will have a positive performance impact compared to running it on DirectX 11.0, or on older operating systems like Windows 7 (which doesn't support DirectX 11.1). In the words of the technical director behind Frostbite, the underlying engine for Battlefield 4, "We use DX11.1, there are some optimizations in it (constant buffer offsets, dynamic buffers as SRVs) that we got in to the the API that improves CPU performance in our rendering when one runs with DX11.1."...


Hmmph. This is interesting. Just having Battlefield 4 as part of AMD's Gaming Evolved and being bundled with this new card is going to be a huge deal for AMD. Battlefield 4 will be the biggest game of the year PC wise and the kind of game people upgrade over.

Really hope Hawaii does turn out to be AMD going back to making a large die. Would be cool to get something faster than 28nm's current best, Titan, before we get 20nm in the second half of next year.
 
Just having Battlefield 4 as part of AMD's Gaming Evolved and being bundled with this new card is going to be a huge deal for AMD. Battlefield 4 will be the biggest game of the year PC wise and the kind of game people upgrade over.

yeah exactly. :thumbsup:

Really hope Hawaii does turn out to be AMD going back to making a large die. Would be cool to get something faster than 28nm's current best, Titan, before we get 20nm in the second half of next year.

yeah competition is good for consumers and the market. lack of competition is good for the dominant company and its shareholders. :biggrin:
 
http://www.techpowerup.com/187812/b...x-11-1-could-give-radeon-hd-7000-an-edge.html




Hmmph. This is interesting. Just having Battlefield 4 as part of AMD's Gaming Evolved and being bundled with this new card is going to be a huge deal for AMD. Battlefield 4 will be the biggest game of the year PC wise and the kind of game people upgrade over.

Really hope Hawaii does turn out to be AMD going back to making a large die. Would be cool to get something faster than 28nm's current best, Titan, before we get 20nm in the second half of next year.

BF is the only driving force for my upgrades. Its been that way since bad company 2 at least. I can't be bothered with caring about any other games at the moment. Painful slogs they all are.
EDIT: Also, we'll see just how much benefit 11.1 gives cpu performance. I smell a cheap marketing tactic.
 
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It's also confirmed it will support DX11.1, which only AMD supports fully and Dice has said will have a lower CPU overhead

Which specific dx11.1 features are being used? There are I believe 4 gaming related features that can be used through software and do not require new hardware.
 
Which specific dx11.1 features are being used? There are I believe 4 gaming related features that can be used through software and do not require new hardware.

Well then lets nip this in the bud in a new thread, else off topic fouls will be called.
 
to me a lot of things are going on AMD side which has made me actually look back.

1. They made it to consoles... which means games should be theoretically written better for amd cards..
2. however cuz they went though this route.. im expecting more crappy console ports that year then all the years combined.
3. If they can equal titan on a money field half of titan... i can care less if its a little bit slower... its HALF THE PRICE.

Clearly... if ur a gamer... AMD looks absolutely delicious this round.
 
2. however cuz they went though this route.. im expecting more crappy console ports that year then all the years combined.
I don't get this reasoning at all. In the past because the console hardware was very different versus the PC side of things, the console ports were generally highly unoptimized. Not to mention in the last few years the console hardware became ancient.

This round the commonality between the console and PC world has obvious benefits.
 
to me a lot of things are going on AMD side which has made me actually look back.

1. They made it to consoles... which means games should be theoretically written better for amd cards..
2. however cuz they went though this route.. im expecting more crappy console ports that year then all the years combined.
3. If they can equal titan on a money field half of titan... i can care less if its a little bit slower... its HALF THE PRICE.

Clearly... if ur a gamer... AMD looks absolutely delicious this round.

Tell you what. Not like i'm important or anything, but if I buy an AMD card this next round, then they have done something very right. I have been a very loyal Nvidia fan since GeForce 256. I only had one ATI card ever, the 9700 pro and replaced it with a 5800 ultra.
Considering the larger frame buffer being standard, the generally better price/performance, improving drivers for single and multi GPU, dx 11.1 support, game bundles and finally the timing of release with BF4...you may have to color me red this time.
If I had bought 7950/70's at least I wouldn't be tripping out over Vram. I thought Nvidia had some slack built in with their high end 680/670 frame buffer. Looks like that frame buffer is running out in short order as planned just like it did with 570/580.
 
Just one thing, if this card is priced below $600 as rumored it is never matching Titan despite all the best wishes.If it beats Titan AMD has no incentive to price it below $600.
 
the pricing is bad as Nvidia has no competition for GK110. that will change with Hawaii. also the average prices for HD 7970 / Ghz are around USD 360 - 380. USD 310 is for only 2 models on newegg. the rest are USD 340 - 480. Hawaii at USD 550 - 600 is roughly 50 - 60% more price for 35% more performance. that I feel is very normal.

Not sure why you are not counting the rebate. With a rebate, a Sapphire 1Ghz 7970 is $290. If 9970 is $550, that's nearly double the price. Right now with $290 1Ghz 7970 you are getting > 40% faster than $200 HD7870.

I don't see how paying nearly double for 35% more performance is anywhere close to reasonable. That has early adopter pricing premium written all over it.

30 - 35% faster than Titan or HD 9970 is difficult for AMD or Nvidia if they want to stay at or below 350 sq mm on 20nm for their first generation flagships. I think 20 - 25% at best is possible. for that I believe you have to wait 9 - 12 months for July - Sep 2014. I can see Nvidia rushing GM104 but not AMD.

So you think neither AMD nor NV will release a 400mm2 20nm part up to Sept 2014? You think NV will release GM104 first and follow up with GM110 in 2015 only?

the fact that Hawaii is releasing in Oct 2013 means AMD are going to take their time with 20nm especially their flagship 20nm chip. I expect AMD to work out the kinks on 20nm by running a pipe cleaner entry level or mid range 20 nm product.

We don't know that.

55nm HD4870 - June 25, 2008
55nm HD4890 - April 1, 2009 (refresh)
40nm HD5870 - September 23, 2009 (new node after 6 months only)
40nm HD6970 - December 14, 2010 (refresh)
28nm HD7970 - December 22, 2011 (new node after 12 months)

AMD previously went down to a full node in a 6-12 month period. There is no need to assume that Pirate Islands 20nm won't launch until 2015. AMD would have to be mad to use HD9970 to go against Maxwell in 2014. They'll get slaughtered, unless you think Maxwell is delayed to Q4 2014/Q1 2015?


the 20nm AMD flagship gpu can be expected in Sep 2014.

Ya, that's my point. We are near the 2-year cycle of 28nm tech and most likely 12 months or less away from AMD's/NV's 20nm flagship card from the time 9970 launches. In other words the 9970 is a stop-gap card before a real breakthrough in performance.

With full voltage overclocking and a powerful 12 layer PCB , Hawaii can hit the same 1200+ mhz clocks that HD 7970 Ghz does while starting at 925 mhz. so yes it will increase the perf gap over the stock gap. the stock

But we don't know if 9970 will only be clocked at 925mhz max Turbo Boost. What if it boosts to 1150mhz out of the box?

Battlefield 4. 🙂 the biggest title this holiday is certainly a next gen title launching on the next gen consoles with the PC version being the bells and whistles flagship version. BF4 will gobble up all the GPU power you can throw at it.

In that case, I'd bet my money on GTX760 4GB SLI or HD7970 1Ghz CF. Those cards should slaughter a $550 HD9970/GTX780 in BF4.
http://technewspedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/25497_Battlefield-4-GPUs.jpg

Asus ARES II is 28% faster than the Titan.

Don't forget when HD6970 was going for $300 on Newegg, HD7970 came out at $550. HD7970 OC is easily 60% faster than HD6970 overclocked. Now with 7970 going for $290, HD9970 at $550 isn't so hot, not even close. Where are all those people who complained feverishly last time about how overpriced 7970 was??? Fast forward nearly 2 years the same complainers are all MIA now that we discussing 35% faster 9970/780 for $550-650. Every single person who thought 7970 was priced too high should be ripping $550-650 9970/780 a new one. Shrug.

It's not even about nodes but timing. In 1.5-2 years NV/AMD only managed 35% more performance as you say but want $550-650 for that. Sorry, that's not good enough. That's the worst increase in performance in 1.5-2 years in the history of GPUs considering the moves from 4870 OC to 5870 OC and 6970 OC to 7970 OC brought 60-80% more performance in the same time frame.
 
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I wonder if 7970 prices will keep falling fast after the release of the 9970... I hope so, that seems to be the route I am taking
 
Just one thing, if this card is priced below $600 as rumored it is never matching Titan despite all the best wishes.If it beats Titan AMD has no incentive to price it below $600.

It actually only has to be @+/- GTX780 performance for a 600 price tag.
 
Indeed, but I am seeing some wild rumors lately :biggrin: AMD is no charity, a Titan killer will never be priced below $600.

About 9 months after GTX280 launched at $649, AMD launched HD4890 with identical performance for $259. Then 6 months later they delivered HD5870 for just $369 despite beating GTX285 easily. Right now 1Ghz 7970s are going for $290-300 when GTX770 is going for $400-450. You cannot at all use NV pricing to project what price AMD will launch their new cards at. I am not saying that 9970 will match or beat the Titan but AMD can easily undercut NV as they have done in the past. Not even sure why people keep using the Titan. A $690 780 HOF beats the Titan as it is. Therefore the Titans' $1K price itself makes no sense in NV's own lineup.
 
About 9 months after GTX280 launched at $649, AMD launched HD4890 with identical performance for $259. Then 6 months later they delivered HD5870 for just $369 despite beating GTX285 easily. Right now 1Ghz 7970s are going for $290-300 when GTX770 is going for $400-450. You cannot at all use NV pricing to project what price AMD will launch their new cards at. I am not saying that 9970 will match or beat the Titan but AMD can easily undercut NV as they have done in the past. Not even sure why people keep using the Titan. A $690 780 HOF beats the Titan as it is. Therefore the Titans' $1K price itself makes no sense in NV's own lineup.

Times have changed RS.It was NV who undercut AMD with their 680 price.7970 launch pricing showed AMD is not hesitant to charge a premium if they could(and they should).
 
Not sure why you are not counting the rebate. With a rebate, a Sapphire 1Ghz 7970 is $290. If 9970 is $550, that's nearly double the price. Right now with $290 1Ghz 7970 you are getting > 40% faster than $200 HD7870.

I don't see how paying nearly double for 35% more performance is anywhere close to reasonable. That has early adopter pricing premium written all o

RS As I said USD 310 is not the price on majority of HD 7970 cards. 2 cards alone. the rest are higher and the average is definitely in the USD 360 - 380 range.

So you think neither AMD nor NV will release a 400mm2 20nm part up to Sept 2014? You think NV will release GM104 first and follow up with GM110 in 2015 only?
GM104 - June or July 2014 (TSMC 20nm)
Pirate Islands successor to HD 9970 - Sep 2014 (TSMC 20nm)
GM110 - Q3 2015 or later (TSMC 16 FF)
AMD Pirate Islands refresh - Q4 2015 (TSMC 16 FF)

We don't know that.

55nm HD4870 - June 25, 2008
55nm HD4890 - April 1, 2009 (refresh)
40nm HD5870 - September 23, 2009 (new node after 6 months only)
40nm HD6970 - December 14, 2010 (refresh)
28nm HD7970 - December 22, 2011 (new node after 12 months)

AMD previously went down to a full node in a 6-12 month period.
HD 4890 is a very slight modification of the same RV770 chip. I would not call it a refresh. its a clock speed bump which required ASIC changes.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2745/3

"For the Radeon HD 4890 our hardware specs are pretty simple. Take a 4870 1GB and overclock it. Crank the core up 100 MHz to 850 MHz and the memory clock up 75 MHz to 975 MHz. That's the Radeon HD 4890 in a nutshell. However, to reach these clock levels, AMD revised the core by adding decoupling capacitors, new timing algorithms, and altered the ASIC power distribution for enhanced operation. These slight changes increased the transistor count from 956M to 959M. Otherwise, the core features/specifications (texture units, ROPs, z/stencil) remain the same as the HD4850/HD4870 series."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4061/amds-radeon-hd-6970-radeon-hd-6950

HD 5870 to HD 6970 was a significant transition. larger die size, 490 million more transistors, VLIW 5 to VLIW 4 shaders. die size increased from 334 to 389 sq mm.

HD 7970 to HD 9970 looks an even more significant transition. GCN 1.0 to GCN 2.0. around 1.2 - 1.7 billion more transistors. Hawaii seems to be 5.5 to 6 billion transistors. significantly larger die. so taking the HD 6970 to HD 7970 transition we can expect 12 months.

There is no need to assume that Pirate Islands 20nm won't launch until 2015. AMD would have to be mad to use HD9970 to go against Maxwell in 2014. They'll get slaughtered, unless you think Maxwell is delayed to Q4 2014/Q1 2015?
I did not say that. I said Nvidia might be the first out with AMD following them in 3 months time.

Ya, that's my point. We are near the 2-year cycle of 28nm tech and most likely 12 months or less away from AMD's/NV's 20nm flagship card from the time 9970 launches. In other words the 9970 is a stop-gap card before a real breakthrough in performance.
28 nm HD 7970 Ghz - 1x
28 nm HD 9970 - 1.35x
20nm AMD high end - 1.7x (around 25% faster than HD 9970)
16 FF AMD high end - 2.38x - 2.46x ( 40 - 45% faster than 20nm high end)

remember 20nm is not going to give traditional gains in perf and power. 16 FF is expected to provide 15 - 20% transistor perf gains over 20nm at same power or lower power for same performance. couple that with die size increase I expect 16 FF to be a big jump. the way i see it if someone buys Hawaii they are better off waiting 2 years and going for the next massive jump with 16 FF.

But we don't know if 9970 will only be clocked at 925mhz max Turbo Boost. What if it boosts to 1150mhz out of the box?
come on now. you expect a much bigger chip to boost to 1150 mhz at same TDP. for the same 250w TDP clocks will be lower. i expect 925 mhz core clocks with 975 mhz max boost. voltage around 1.175v. that should allow overclocks to 1125 mhz easily.
 
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It actually only has to be @+/- GTX780 performance for a 600 price tag.

HD 9970 has to be more than GTX 780 as AMD would definitely anticipate a 2688 sp based or even better a 2880 sp based GTX 785. if you want to compete with the big guy you better come prepared.
 
come on now. you expect a much bigger chip to boost to 1150 mhz at same TDP. for the same 250w TDP clocks will be lower. i expect 925 mhz core clocks with 975 mhz max boost. voltage around 1.175v. that should allow overclocks to 1125 mhz easily.

Reference 7970 925mhz (1.175V) peaks at 189W
Reference 7970 flashed with GE bios (1.256V) peaks at 238W
13.5% increase in GPU clock speed and 9.1% increase in memory clock cost AMD 49W of power.

But if you look at after-market 7970 cards, you have 2 possibilities - same 1050mhz clocks at way lower power consumption, or way higher clocks at similar power consumption to reference 7970Ghz:

(A) 1050mhz card that peaks at 181W (8W lower than reference card despite a 13.5 increase in GPU clock and a 3.6% increase in memory clock)

(B) 1180mhz card that peaks at 239W
^27.6% increase in GPU clock for only a 50W increase because the card uses upgraded PCB, power/VRM circuitry, higher quality components and heatsink. This all lowers your power consumption.

In either case you can see that using 250W TDP of "Reference 7970Ghz" tells us nothing about 9970. For the last 1.5 years it's been a waste of time to talk about Reference 7970 GHz power consumption since:

1) No such cards are sold in retail and never have been;
2) Every after-market 7970 Ghz shows way better efficiency than reference 7970Ghz.

Take nearly 2 year old 28nm tech, AMD may improve components/PCB, cooler and you end up with a > 1Ghz 9970 card and die size of 440-450mm2 that uses 250W of actual power. Remember some after-market 7970 1050mhz cards use just 181W of power, giving AMD 69W of actual power to work with. Add in more efficient GDDR5 at similar clocks, which means they can go 7Ghz GDDR5 without increasing power consumption compared to 6Ghz.

2560 SPs + 40 ROPs + 160 TMUs @ 1150mhz @ 1.175V.
Shader power, GLOPs, pixel fill-rate, texture fill-rate all equally go up 37%.
Why is this not possible?

Remember TDP =! actual power consumption for AMD. We already have HIS 7970 hitting 1180mhz @ 1.256V while using 239W actual power with 0 process node improvements.
 
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HD 9970 has to be more than GTX 780 as AMD would definitely anticipate a 2688 sp based or even better a 2880 sp based GTX 785. if you want to compete with the big guy you better come prepared.

What you're basing that on is what AMD "should" want to do if they were in fact competing against NV at the top end. This doesn't mean they are, or even can. I'll be optimistic about it if it makes you feel better, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
 
I don't get this reasoning at all. In the past because the console hardware was very different versus the PC side of things, the console ports were generally highly unoptimized. Not to mention in the last few years the console hardware became ancient.

This round the commonality between the console and PC world has obvious benefits.

Well, remember the ports where keyboard commands were presented with xbox buttons instead? Remember the games with locked resolution and such? That's lazy and I expect developers to get even lazier because they don't have to even add higher resolution textures anymore.
 
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