[wccftech] rumor: amd hawaii benchmarked in 3dmark11 firestrike AMD attacks titan

[Keromyaou]

These guys did some measurement of vRAM usage in many games (http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18497413). The result seems to suggest that 2GB is more or less fine for 1080p but that 3GB is required for above 1080p.

 

[ruhtraeel]

Then go ahead and get a 7970. The 9970 will be way over you comfort "zone" ($$)

Too late haha, my quote was valid for 7 days, but 7 days have passed.

If I could get it (with the same cooler, DirectCU II) for $250-$300, I would buy it in an instant. I decided to wait at least until the 9970 came out, then I could decide on a really cheap 7970 or go all out and get the 9970 (money's not a problem for me, but I still don't like to spend it haphazardly).

If the 9970 is close to a Titan, that's a good 5-10 FPS more; something I would probably need. I just really hope that a DirectCU II version of it isn't >$600.
I say I might need it because my 5870's run nearly everything maxed, EXCEPT when the 1GB buffer comes into play. Then everything goes to hell.

I can afford waiting a bit

 

[ShintaiDK]

These guys did some measurement of vRAM usage in many games (http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18497413). The result seems to suggest that 2GB is more or less fine for 1080p but that 3GB is required for above 1080p.

I got 2GB and 2560*1440. Never had a VRAM issue even with max settings.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Not so naive, they did it just 2 years before (see next quote).

Yes, 6 months after their competition. Look how that turned out. See below.

Not relevant, 4770 wasnt an new architecture on a new process and it wasnt even made by NV. Naive is to think that both companies share the same expertise in running a new node. (Hint: they dont).
The HD4770 was a pipecleaner of the same architecture as the rest of the 4xxx series for a new node.

GK100 was going to be a new architecture on a new process, as was GF100. Why couldn't with Kepler and did with Fermi? :hmm:

Yes, it is relevant. Again: Look at the maturity of the process. GF100 came out 6 months after the first large 40nm GPU (Cypress) - which had poor availability until the beginning of 2010 btw, highlighting problems with early 40 nm. GK110 came out 7-8 months after the first 28nm GPU (Tahiti) as K20X. Nvidia certainly did not release GF100 in September 2009 - just as they didn't release GK110 in January 2012. Both would have been impossible with acceptable yields.

Adding examples to my point isn't doing any good for you. Tahiti was also new architecture on a new node, as was GF100, both made it to the market. GK100, not so much. Somethings up, dont you think? :hmm:

And I repeat myself, but again, you can't compare the expertise entering a new node for different companies. The process is the same for both, the ability to deal with it with a new architecture and still make a good yielding product, as seen lately, nowhere as close.

Tahiti is much smaller than GK110 or GF100. That comparison doesn't work. Let's talk again when AMD makes a 500+ mm2 GPU this early on a new process and see how good their yields are then.

No need to cite misterious sources, its pretty simple:

GK -> first letter of architecture codename.
1xx -> Distinction between different dies. Going from biggest to smallest goes from 100 to 107 or whatever NV desires to name their smallest die at that generation. The refresh follows this rule, only changes the middle number. Then you have 110, 114, 116, etc.

Just recently, NV added a new number to distinct between fully fledged dies (with no shaders and other units disabled) from crippled parts. This was shown with the 7xx kepler refresh series.

Problem: There is no 114, 116 etc. There is GK208, though.
The 11x and 10x nomenclature was used exactly once (Fermi). That is in no way enough evidence to support a specific (repeating!) naming scheme unless you have deep inside information about how NV arrives at these code names. That would be like saying "The Democrats won the 2012 election, so they have to win every time". Doesn't work that way.

What number are you referring to?

If you want to feel good about youself thinking there was no GK100, when timing to market, NV's own history regarding dealing with new architectures in new nodes and their big-die strategy and the need to release a dual GK104 GPU in the HPC market so it doesnt lose to the existing single die GF110 based ones shows the exactly opposite, then so be it. No GK100 ever existed, nope, not at all :awe:

I have asked around my sources a bit yesterday and it seems that Nvidia in fact tried to get GK110 ready first. When they couldn't due to yields, they pulled GK104 in, tweaked it (Boost, cough) and waited for better yields for GK110. There is still no credible evidence of a GK100 ever existing. GK110 is not broken as GF100 was (extremely hot and power hungry due to the broken fabric). Because GF100 was released late, do you automatically assume there was a GF90/99/?

Face it, there is no conclusive reasoning or evidence for a GK100.

 

[RussianSensation]

If I could get it (with the same cooler, DirectCU II) for $250-$300, I would buy it in an instant. I decided to wait at least until the 9970 came out, then I could decide on a really cheap 7970 or go all out and get the 9970 (money's not a problem for me, but I still don't like to spend it haphazardly).

DirectCUII 7970 was not a good version anyway; that's the Matrix. Whatever realistic performance we can expect from HD9970, it'll be way worse value than $290 1Ghz 7970s with 3 free games. You can even wait to redeem BF4, which is like getting a 7970 1Ghz for $240! I think getting a 7970 1Ghz for sub-$300 and waiting for 20nm GPUs is the best course of action. Buying either 780, Titan or 9970 is just overpaying for old 28nm cycle tech that won't hold a candle to 20nm flagship GPUs next year. Cards like 7970GE/680 are good enough to hold us over for 12 more months until 20nm arrives. Why buy $550-650 28nm flagships that are barely 30-35% faster? That's not going to be enough for next gen games, while 20nm flagship GPUs will be 70-80% faster than 7970GE. If you sell your 5870s and get a single 7970, overclock it and it'll be as fast as those 2 cards. Your net upgrade cost will be very low and you get 3GB of VRAM. Then just wait for 20nm for a really tangible increase in performance over 7970GE overclocked. My 2 cents.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's also interesting how people think releasing GPU's for cheap is a bad idea, like from the perspective of a shareholder and not just a consumer.

I would have expected for most people here to just look from an immediate consumer prespective.

I'm just trying to apply logic. Sure, AMD could decide that pricing up ended up a bad business decision and go back to better value/performance instead. It's just that up until now they haven't shown that attitude. Without all of the info though we can only guess (and hope). They obviously decided to take the counter punching position this round. That's new for them. They typically strive to release first.

I'm not rooting for higher prices. Just trying to anticipate AMD's moves.

 

[3DVagabond]

Looking forward to that right there. If there are any issues with BF4, they will be minor so maybe i'll just stick it out as well. Haswell-E would be a nice time for a complete new build perhaps. Its just that even the slightest glitch really gets under my skin, especially if its preventable.

I have a feeling that BF4 is going to have something feature or performance wise that will make people want to upgrade to Hawaii to take advantage. I really think they are tied in somehow. Not just free new game bundled with their latest card.

 

[raghu78]

Whatever realistic performance we can expect from HD9970, it'll be way worse value than $290 1Ghz 7970s with 3 free games. You can even wait to redeem BF4, which is like getting a 7970 1Ghz for $240! I think getting a 7970 1Ghz for sub-$300 and waiting for 20nm GPUs is the best course of action. Buying either 780, Titan or 9970 is just overpaying for old 28nm cycle tech that won't hold a candle to 20nm flagship GPUs next year.

RS performance never ever scales linearly with price. waiting for 20nm might note be a good idea. the first generation of 20nm planar is going to be underwhelming. the second generation on FINFET a year later is going to be much better.

Cards like 7970GE/680 are good enough to hold us over for 12 more months until 20nm arrives. Why buy $550-650 28nm flagships that are barely 30-35% faster? That's not going to be enough for next gen games, while 20nm flagship GPUs will be 70-80% faster than 7970GE.

if HD 9970 is 35% faster than HD 7970 Ghz while running at 925 mhz (being a massive die it will have to run at lower clocks) it means more OC headroom than HD 7970 Ghz and the gap will widen to 50% once you consider avg OCs. thats huge.

 

[RussianSensation]

RS performance never ever scales linearly with price. waiting for 20nm might note be a good idea. the first generation of 20nm planar is going to be underwhelming. the second generation on FINFET a year later is going to be much better.

While that's true, this generation's pricing gap between mid-range cards like 7970 1Ghz and flagship, GTX780/Titan, is close to the worst it's ever been. Right now 780 costs 2.24x more than 1Ghz 7970 but 780's advantage over AMD's card is similar to what 5870 had over 285 at launch. Put it this way, when GTX285 was $340 on the market, it would be similar to AMD dropping HD5870 for $762 (!!!).

vs.

You think first gen 20nm parts will be underwhelming but there is no point for AMD/NV to launch 20nm parts unless they are at least 30-35% faster than 9970/GTX780. This is where I am getting 70-80% faster than 7970GE from. Right now it's a better strategy to buy 7970 1Ghz for $290, save $360, then resell 7970 1Ghz in 1 year for $140, add $360 you saved = brand new $500 20nm card that will should give that 70-80% over 7970 1Ghz/680 and be a lot more suitable for 2014 next gen games. We should expect beefed up tessellation/global illumination and compute performance out of 20nm architectures, especially from Maxwell.

if HD 9970 is 35% faster than HD 7970 Ghz while running at 925 mhz (being a massive die it will have to run at lower clocks) it means more OC headroom than HD 7970 Ghz and the gap will widen to 50% once you consider avg OCs. thats huge.

I'll believe it when I see it. You didn't take into account that 7970 can also overclock to 1150-1250mhz.

I still think 35% faster than 7970 1Ghz/680 just sounds nice on paper but in the real world a "tangible" increase for next gen games will need to be 70-80% faster. Consider the increase going from 4870 OC to 5870/6970 OC to 7970 OC. In each of those cases the increases was closer to 70-80%. Right now games like Metro LL and Crysis 3 already push GTX780 and those aren't next gen PS4/XB1 games but current gen titles. At best you can increase 2-3 settings in these demanding games above 7970 1Ghz/680 and for that you pay $360. 35% faster is going to be a drop in the bucket when next 2014-2015 games will be 2-3x more demanding; just wait until Witcher 3.

Also, if 9970 OC is 50% faster than 7970 OC, it'll blow the Titan away. That sounds way too optimistic.

What next gen games are coming out on the PC in 2013 that warrant a $550-650 28nm card? Not much I can think of until very end of the year. The first wave is going to be in 2014 once PS4/XB1 games start coming out. To each his/her own but to me 9970/780 will forever be stop-gap cards near end of PS360 cycle.

 

[Silverforce11]

I think we can all agree, if its a 28nm refresh, it will be seriously "meh"...

But if its a 20nm launch, oh yeah!!

 

[Black Octagon]

I think we can all agree, if its a 28nm refresh, it will be seriously "meh"...

But if its a 20nm launch, oh yeah!!

I agree. But for the record, it will be "meh with déjà vu," given that the 700 series has already come out as a Kepler refresh / glorified-rebadge

 

[raghu78]

While that's true, this generation's pricing gap between mid-range cards like 7970 1Ghz and flagship, GTX780/Titan, is close to the worst it's ever been.

the pricing is bad as Nvidia has no competition for GK110. that will change with Hawaii. also the average prices for HD 7970 / Ghz are around USD 360 - 380. USD 310 is for only 2 models on newegg. the rest are USD 340 - 480. Hawaii at USD 550 - 600 is roughly 50 - 60% more price for 35% more performance. that I feel is very normal.

You think first gen 20nm parts will be underwhelming but there is no point for AMD/NV to launch 20nm parts unless they are at least 30-35% faster than 9970/GTX780. This is where I am getting 70-80% faster than 7970GE from. Right now it's a better strategy to buy 7970 1Ghz for $290, save $360, then resell 7970 1Ghz in 1 year for $140, add $360 you saved = brand new $500 20nm card that will should give that 70-80% over 7970 1Ghz/680 and be a lot more suitable for 2014 next gen games. We should expect beefed up tessellation/global illumination and compute performance out of 20nm architectures, especially from Maxwell.

30 - 35% faster than Titan or HD 9970 is difficult for AMD or Nvidia if they want to stay at or below 350 sq mm on 20nm for their first generation flagships. I think 20 - 25% at best is possible. for that I believe you have to wait 9 - 12 months for July - Sep 2014. I can see Nvidia rushing GM104 but not AMD. the fact that Hawaii is releasing in Oct 2013 means AMD are going to take their time with 20nm especially their flagship 20nm chip. I expect AMD to work out the kinks on 20nm by running a pipe cleaner entry level or mid range 20 nm product. Also AMD might have a GDDR6 based 20nm flagship to increase bandwidth without having to go for 512 bit memory bus. so I don't think AMD's 20nm flagship will be the first out of the gate like they did at 28nm. the 20nm AMD flagship gpu can be expected in Sep 2014.

I'll believe it when I see it. You didn't take into account that 7970 can also overclock to 1150-1250mhz.

With full voltage overclocking and a powerful 12 layer PCB , Hawaii can hit the same 1200+ mhz clocks that HD 7970 Ghz does while starting at 925 mhz. so yes it will increase the perf gap over the stock gap. the stock

Also, if 9970 OC is 50% faster than 7970 OC, it'll blow the Titan away. That sounds way too optimistic.

yeah maybe. but lets wait for results.

What next gen games are coming out on the PC in 2013 that warrant a $550-650 28nm card?

Battlefield 4. the biggest title this holiday is certainly a next gen title launching on the next gen consoles with the PC version being the bells and whistles flagship version. BF4 will gobble up all the GPU power you can throw at it.

 

[Black Octagon]

With full voltage overclocking and a powerful 12 layer PCB , Hawaii can hit the same 1200+ mhz clocks that HD 7970 Ghz does while starting at 925 mhz. so yes it will increase the perf gap over the stock gap. the stock.

How can we know this already? Isn't this also one of those "yeah maybe. but lets wait for results" situations?

 

[raghu78]

How can we know this already? Isn't this also one of those "yeah maybe. but lets wait for results" situations?

these chips are on the same TSMC 28nm process. so with good cooling and enough power the max clocks are quite similar.

here is the Titan at 1250 mhz with custom BIOS for higher power target and watercooled

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Gefor...TX-Titan-Extrem-Overclocking-GTX-880-1076043/

 

[Keysplayr]

How can we know this already? Isn't this also one of those "yeah maybe. but lets wait for results" situations?

You'd think right? But all I'm seeing is matter of fact posting and assertions.
It is truly a wait and see.
I see a lot of:

It will be on 20nm. Announced in September and launched in Q2 2014.

instead of:

I think it will be on 20nm. And maybe announced in September and perhaps launched in Q2 2014.

We still don't know if it's a single or dual GPU card yet. Like Malta.

 

[raghu78]

I see a lot of:

It will be on 20nm. Announced in September and launched in Q2 2014.

instead of:

I think it will be on 20nm. And maybe announced in September and perhaps launched in Q2 2014.

We still don't know if it's a single or dual GPU card yet. Like Malta.

good FUD propaganda.

On April 29th 2013

http://www.rage3d.com/articles/hardware/amd_worldcast/

"The next generation of graphics cards -- Volcanic Islands -- is coming this year and shaping up nicely. When you name products after places, it leads to interesting thoughts about where to hold events surrounding that namesake product."

here are a few questions with clues to the answers

When was the last time AMD launched a new generation of graphics cards without a flagship single die GPU. clue : never. :biggrin:

When was the last time AMD launched a new GPU on a process not available for another 6 - 9 months. clue : never :biggrin:

When was the last time AMD had a press event for a GPU launch and did not make the GPU available for purchase in retail for 6 months. clue : never :biggrin:

Hawaii is 28nm and going to be available for purchase in retail before BF4 launches in Oct end. being on 28nm I expect the product to be available in good volumes.

 

[Keysplayr]

good FUD propaganda.

On April 29th 2013

http://www.rage3d.com/articles/hardware/amd_worldcast/

"The next generation of graphics cards -- Volcanic Islands -- is coming this year and shaping up nicely. When you name products after places, it leads to interesting thoughts about where to hold events surrounding that namesake product."

here are a few questions with clues to the answers

When was the last time AMD launched a new generation of graphics cards without a flagship single die GPU. clue : never. :biggrin:

When was the last time AMD launched a new GPU on a process not available for another 6 - 9 months. clue : never :biggrin:

When was the last time AMD had a press event for a GPU launch and did not make the GPU available for purchase in retail for 6 months. clue : never :biggrin:

Hawaii is 28nm and going to be available for purchase in retail before BF4 launches in Oct end. being on 28nm I expect the product to be available in good volumes.

When was the last time any of this applies to the state of AMD's current technical and financial capabilities, Rory Read's gameplan or anything else?
AFAICT, Rory Read has a different plan for AMD and it probably isn't a plan that involves going head to head with Intel or Nvidia for top dog CPU's and GPU's any longer.

I am not spreading any FUD, and why would it be "good" if I was?
It wouldn't be.
At this point in time, and the current state of AMD, it just doesn't make sense what you're shoveling here.

This:
""The next generation of graphics cards -- Volcanic Islands -- is coming this year and shaping up nicely. When you name products after places, it leads to interesting thoughts about where to hold events surrounding that namesake product."

Doesn't mean it will launch this year. It says it's "shaping up" nicely. To me that means developmental stage. Again, only the announcement could be this year.

I can be wrong about all of this, but at least i can admit it and open to being surprised without outright dismissing logic.

 

[Vesku]

Announcing end of Q3'13 launching in Q2'14? Who in their right mind believes that timeline?

 

[moonbogg]

I have a feeling that BF4 is going to have something feature or performance wise that will make people want to upgrade to Hawaii to take advantage. I really think they are tied in somehow. Not just free new game bundled with their latest card.

I wouldn't doubt it. If the game needs over 2gb to run maxed, then that axes like 80% of all Nvidia cards, old and new ones alike. That leaves high end Nvidia cards like 780 or a regular AMD card. If you have a mid range card with a freakish 4gb of ram then that's good. Otherwise yeah, upgrade time.

 

[ruhtraeel]

DirectCUII 7970 was not a good version anyway; that's the Matrix. Whatever realistic performance we can expect from HD9970, it'll be way worse value than $290 1Ghz 7970s with 3 free games. You can even wait to redeem BF4, which is like getting a 7970 1Ghz for $240! I think getting a 7970 1Ghz for sub-$300 and waiting for 20nm GPUs is the best course of action. Buying either 780, Titan or 9970 is just overpaying for old 28nm cycle tech that won't hold a candle to 20nm flagship GPUs next year. Cards like 7970GE/680 are good enough to hold us over for 12 more months until 20nm arrives. Why buy $550-650 28nm flagships that are barely 30-35% faster? That's not going to be enough for next gen games, while 20nm flagship GPUs will be 70-80% faster than 7970GE. If you sell your 5870s and get a single 7970, overclock it and it'll be as fast as those 2 cards. Your net upgrade cost will be very low and you get 3GB of VRAM. Then just wait for 20nm for a really tangible increase in performance over 7970GE overclocked. My 2 cents.

I read on a review that the DCU2 version could overclock like a beast, keeping the temperatures at 70 degrees load, with no difference other than fan speed from both stock and OC speeds, but getting to a ridiculous clock speed and beating out the GHZ edition by the exact amount it lost to originally.

Unfortunately, here in Canada, cards are roughly $30-40 more expensive. Newegg also has really high shipping costs (around $10 or more), so the price gets bumped up even more.

The best option here is usually to find the card you want on either Newegg or NCIX, then price beat it at Memory Express IF they have the card (Memexpress has a pretty limited selection, the Sapphire 7970 on Newegg.ca is going for $320 ($310 in USD) but Memexpress doesn't have it so I can't price beat it). Usually Memexpress has those types of cards for ~$430, so $430-$320 = $110, 25% $110 = $27.5. That would make the Sapphire card ~$295, but unfortunately, they don't carry that card.

It really doesn't hurt to wait though. 7970 prices keep going down, and I have more options to choose from

 

[Black Octagon]

these chips are on the same TSMC 28nm process. so with good cooling and enough power the max clocks are quite similar.

here is the Titan at 1250 mhz with custom BIOS for higher power target and watercooled

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Gefor...TX-Titan-Extrem-Overclocking-GTX-880-1076043/

Is the fact that it's TSMC 28nm really all there is to it, though? What about other factors like binning, cooling, BIOS restrictions and the like? As I understand your argument, 'any' TSMC 28nm based card should in principle be capable of the same approximate max overclock, but we know for a fact that there are big differences between cards.

 

[raghu78]

AFAICT, Rory Read has a different plan for AMD and it probably isn't a plan that involves going head to head with Intel or Nvidia for top dog CPU's and GPU's any longer.

Thats what you believe or expect or want.

I am not spreading any FUD, and why would it be "good" if I was? It wouldn't be. At this point in time, and the current state of AMD, it just doesn't make sense what you're shoveling here.

This:
""The next generation of graphics cards -- Volcanic Islands -- is coming this year and shaping up nicely. When you name products after places, it leads to interesting thoughts about where to hold events surrounding that namesake product."

Doesn't mean it will launch this year. It says it's "shaping up" nicely. To me that means developmental stage. Again, only the announcement could be this year.

the press event is on Sep 25th.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...h-gpu-codenamed-hawaii-in-hawaii-sept-25.aspx

"We just got confirmation that AMD will be announcing their latest GPU codenamed Hawaii. The event will be scheduled during the week of September 23rd, and there will be a live streamed public event on the 25th that will introduce AMD's new flagship GPU to the world. "

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/07/amd-to-launch-hawaii-in-hawaii/

"AMD has clarified that it is the Hawaii/Volcanic Islands tech day in September, not the launch. The launch will officially happen in Q4 some time, the dates in this article are our speculation."

to give you an idea HD 5870 launched 2 weeks after the press event.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2841

"2 weeks ago we got our first briefing on the members of the Evergreen family, and AMD publically announced their Eyefinity technology running on the then-unnamed Radeon HD 5870"

you can expect a similar 2 - 3 weeks from sep 25th, so a mid October launch is more or less confirmed.

I can be wrong about all of this, but at least i can admit it and open to being surprised without outright dismissing logic.

we all know what you are doing on these forums

 

[Spjut]

I wouldn't doubt it. If the game needs over 2gb to run maxed, then that axes like 80% of all Nvidia cards, old and new ones alike. That leaves high end Nvidia cards like 780 or a regular AMD card. If you have a mid range card with a freakish 4gb of ram then that's good. Otherwise yeah, upgrade time.

It's also confirmed it will support DX11.1, which only AMD supports fully and Dice has said will have a lower CPU overhead

 

[Keysplayr]

Thats what you believe or expect or want.

No, it's what is logical for AMD in it's current state.

the press event is on Sep 25th.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...h-gpu-codenamed-hawaii-in-hawaii-sept-25.aspx

"We just got confirmation that AMD will be announcing their latest GPU codenamed Hawaii. The event will be scheduled during the week of September 23rd, and there will be a live streamed public event on the 25th that will introduce AMD's new flagship GPU to the world. "

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/08/07/amd-to-launch-hawaii-in-hawaii/

"AMD has clarified that it is the Hawaii/Volcanic Islands tech day in September, not the launch. The launch will officially happen in Q4 some time, the dates in this article are our speculation."

to give you an idea HD 5870 launched 2 weeks after the press event.

5870 has exactly what in common with the 9xxx series?
Why didn't you use the 6xxx or 7xxx series as an example? Why go all the way back to the 5xxx series?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2841

"2 weeks ago we got our first briefing on the members of the Evergreen family, and AMD publically announced their Eyefinity technology running on the then-unnamed Radeon HD 5870"

you can expect a similar 2 - 3 weeks from sep 25th, so a mid October launch is more or less confirmed.



we all know what you are doing on these forums

What am I doing on these forums, Raghu? And who are "we all" ????

Lets please not make this about me. I know it's hard, but try.

 

[ruhtraeel]

EDIT: I retract my statement.

After some quick HARDOCP research, it seems like the Sapphire Dual-x is better than the DirectCU II.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, time to find one for ~$300 in Canada.