WCCFAMD Zen Architecture Could Feature in APUs in 2016, ASUS a Key Player

[AtenRa]

No, it is not the fastest APU on the market, or even in its price range. It has the fastest igpu in its price range. Even though AMD fans would love to ignore it, an APU is both a cpu and an igp. So whether it is "fastest" depends on the application. For something that uses primarily cpu, it certainly is *not* the fastest, and loses miserably to a similarly priced i5 and in a lot of applications to a cheaper i3. For something that uses primarily the igp, it is the fastest in its price range. So it gets a premium price for fitting into the small niche of those who want mediocre cpu performance, better igpu performance than intel, but worse gpu performance than a discrete card, is that what you are trying to validate?

So bottom line, except for niche small form factor applications, it is outclassed in cpu performance by intel and in gpu performance by its own cheap cpus with a discrete card. I fail to see how this merits a premium price.

dGPU market is the niche, just to remind you of Intels 66% of GPU market share. And yes not all of those Intel iGPUs are used but they are still the vast majority out there. People here always forget that dGPU PCs are not the majority in the PC market

 

[VirtualLarry]

Did you miss those $25/28 FS MSI FM2+ A55M boards I posted in Hot Deals a while back at TD?

 

[cbn]

Did you miss those $25/28 FS MSI FM2+ A55M boards I posted in Hot Deals a while back at TD?

Yes, I do remember that deal---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36653934

If only I decided to go for that one, my entire FM2+ budget desktop build would have been $89.97 (plus hard drive).

 

[AtenRa]

Probably because demanding constant multi-threaded load on all cores of a 95w APU stuck in a 35-65w TDP limited Thin-ITX case, powered by a typical 80w Thin-ITX brick PSU was a rather pointless exercise in unrealism itself... :sneaky:

Mini-iTX slim Case with 200W PSU. You can install A10-7850K no problem with an SSD and 2400MHz Ram.

http://www.coolermaster.com/case/mini-itx/mini110/

There are more if you do a little search

No-one talks about iGPU's / APU's outside of SFF PC enthusiasts & AMD enthusiasts because for even for budget gamers, iGPU's and APU's are still a massive false economy in general. Average 22-28fps @ 1366x768 even with all quality settings turned right down on an A10-7850K in Watch Dogs is just not my idea of "fun" let alone "immersion" in a game (let alone a new-build 2014 rig that's supposed to last the "gamer" 2-3 years). For the sake of +$30 ($99 260X + i3 / FX6300) which can do 1080p on 30-50fps Medium, the so called "APU savings" & "efficiency" are utterly crippling in terms of "gameplay" and being DDR3 bandwidth starved:-

Perf-per-pixel-per-$ (Watchdogs):-
7850K = 22-28fps @ 720p for $180 = Baseline of 1.0 perf/USD
i3-4130 / FX-6300 + 260X = 30-50fps @ 1080p for $210 = 1.7-2.85 perf/USD

I honestly question the integrity, mentality and honesty of anyone who turns down 200% higher performance (and over +180% high perf-per-$) for the sake of "saving" $30 due to "cost" whilst simultaneously talking up buying premium thin Mini-ITX motherboards & cases (see the $100-$110 FM2 Mini-ITX boards) plus potentially another $95 for 2x 4GB 2133MHz SODIMM's (another $20 premium over regular DDR3) to avoid crippled APU performance on "Thin" boards... I'm sorry, but I simply cannot sit there and read that with a straight face without laughing if the only thing in your "budget build" that actually has a budget is the CPU.

R7 260X = 115W TDP alone

Add the Core i3 and you get more than 150W TDP when A10-7850K is only 95W TDP.
As i have said before, you pay a premium for the fastest APU at 95W TDP. Nobody here debated if you can build a faster Gaming system at the same price than the A10-7850K.
I also didnt see you say that Core i5 is overpriced because at almost same price you can have the Core i3 + 260X that completely destroys the Core i5.

As for "the smaller the better", beyond a certain point, this is false information. The "ultra-tiny, ultra-thin" you're pushing (due to an artificial requirement of "no expansion slots ever" which only you created), make a great netbox / workbox / media playback center, but you certainly wouldn't want to load a 95w CPU / APU constantly for hours on end as with many such cases, it's a case of "low heat vs low noise - pick one of two" (due to tiny slim "blower fans"). Even those tiny Intel NUC's with 35w "T" chips can get noisy. Many of the passive "heatsink cases" (eg, Akasa Euler) have TDP limits often of 30-40w. Other budget cases which come with 300w "generic" $10 PSU's are precisely the same ones desktop users steer well clear of due to iffy voltage regulation, reliability, fan noise and for some, outright fire hazard. Those ultra, ultra tiny & slim, cases with external sub 100w PSU's are often designed for constant load only of sub 20w Atom / Kabini style boards, with many ITX motherboards openly stating "65w max".

There is not a problem playing for hours using the Coolermaster case above. You simple havent any experience building and using slim mini-itx systems.

If the purpose genuinely is a budget gaming rig in a fairly small case which doesn't annoy the hell out of you once the SFF novelty has worn off (ie, you start craving a slightly larger case simply to get rid of those tiny "blower fans" that tend to develop a whine after a couple of months), then a slightly larger "toaster" ITX or compact HTPC style Micro-ATX case (for the living room) with larger but slower spinning fans is a far better choice and 1x expansion slot anyway (not just for GFX cards, but TV cards if used as a HTPC in the bedroom / living room, etc). You can even buy 2" / 50mm height Mini-ITX cases with PCI-E x16 riser cards, or ones with low-profile expansion slots, so your "Mini-ITX = no expansion cards" really is a fake limitation that only you have imposed on everyone as "the average budget build" solely to exclude budget dGPU's for no real reason...

First of all nobody talked about budget build here, we were talking about premium prices on a premium product.

Also, if you really need to, you can also change the CPU cooler and install low noise SFF coolers like Noctua NH-L9a/i or a cheaper RAIJINTEK Zelos.

People buy consoles and play at 900p 30fps, A10-7850K can do that with the majority of games today in a slim mini-itx case

 

[BSim500]

I also didnt see you say that Core i5 is overpriced because at almost same price you can have the Core i3 + 260X that completely destroys the Core i5.

As I said - no-one buys i5/i7's with the intent of building a heavy gaming rig without a GPU (or is the similar priced FX-8350 "junk" too for the same reason?). Nor does the 7850K have CPU perf even remotely close to one. Common sense is a wonderful thing...

First of all nobody talked about budget build here, we were talking about premium prices on a premium product.

Actually APU's for budget builds in exactly what everyone was talking about. You were the only one who was suddenly talking about "Mini-ITX only" criteria then demanded everything be funneled through an arbitrary strict set of criteria...

People buy consoles and play at 900p 30fps, A10-7850K can do that with the majority of games today in a slim mini-itx case

Sure - as long as you exclude all the modern games that run at 20fps @ 720p... :whiste:

 

[AtenRa]

As I said - no-one buys i5/i7's with the intent of building a heavy gaming rig without a GPU (or is the similar priced FX-8350 "junk" too for the same reason?). Nor does the 7850K have CPU perf even remotely close to one. Common sense is a wonderful thing...

Lets see what you said,

Anyway, the biggest problem with the 7850K isn't heat, it's performance & price - it runs slower than an i3 (even for multi-tasking) yet is virtually the same price as an i5. Knock $30-50 off the price and it'll finally make sense...

So, you compared Core i3s CPU ONLY PERFORMANCE an even put Core i5 in to the equation when by your own words none is going for Core i5 for its iGPU.
But you wanted to make A10-7850K look overpriced compared to Corer i5 when you KNOW very well that those two SKUs are not directly competing in the same segments. One is chosen for its CPU performance the other one for its iGPU performance.

Common sense :whiste:

Actually APU's for budget builds in exactly what everyone was talking about. You were the only one who was suddenly talking about "Mini-ITX only" criteria then demanded everything be funneled through an arbitrary strict set of criteria...

Actually i said A10-7850K has a premium price because it has no competition in its price/segment. It is the fastest APU in its price, period. You pay a premium for it. If you dont like that there is the A10-7700K or even the 7600 for much less.

Sure - as long as you exclude all the modern games that run at 20fps @ 720p... :whiste:

I seams all you want is to downgrade the APUs in general,

Some examples with A10-7700K, A10-7850K is even faster. There are countless games that can be played at 900p 30fps with any of those A10 APUs.

 

[BSim500]

Some examples with A10-7700K, A10-7850K is even faster.

Right, so you compare a $180 CPU to a $110 CPU then declare the $180 the "winner", whilst completely ignoring what we were all actually talking about (the price premium of a 7850K vs an i3 + dGPU 7770 / 7790). A +100% increase in performance is worth a $70 premium over an i3, but a 200% increase isn't worth $30 over a 7850K because that's "irrelevant". And this is where the conversation swiftly ends...

I seams all you want is to downgrade the APUs in general

Well, I've scoured the net, and I just can't find any XB1/PS4 owner complaining that their 7790/7850 equiv console is "overpowered" and "if only it were a 7750 that ran 50-70% slower for 2014-2020 games". I think you better go reeducate them all...

 

[AtenRa]

Right, so you compare a $180 CPU to a $110 CPU then declare the $180 the "winner", whilst completely ignoring what we were all actually talking about (the price premium of a 7850K vs an i3 + dGPU 7770 / 7790). A +100% increase in performance is worth a $70 premium over an i3, but a 200% increase isn't worth $30 over a 7850K because that's "irrelevant". And this is where the conversation swiftly ends...

Core i3 4330 is $140 and it was you who actually compared Core i3 + R7 260X against A10-7850K.

A10-7850K = $180 = 95W TDP

Core i3 4330 = $140 55W TDP
R7 260X = $95 115W TDP

Total = $235 = 150W TDP

Core i3 + R7 260X cost $55 more, has 50W TDP more and cannot be used in Slim mini-iTX cases.

So, what part of Premium product Premium price for the A10-7850K didnt you understand ??? You cannot have the performance of A10-7850K at 95W TDP at the same price, period. You pay more to have all those together.

Well, I've scoured the net, and I just can't find any XB1/PS4 owner complaining that their 7790/7850 equiv console is "overpowered" and "if only it were a 7750 that ran 50-70% slower for 2014-2020 games". I think you better go reeducate them all...

Did you or didnt you over exaggerated about 720p 20fps ???
Did you or didnt you tried to make A10-7850K look overpriced by only compare CPU performance to Core i5 ??? And then admit nobody buys i5 for its iGPU when almost everyone will go for A10s iGPU ??
Did you or didnt you tried to downplay A10-7850K in Multi-Thread with a questionable multi-thread scenario (playing HD Movie) ??

 

[Erenhardt]

One simply do not go for best SKU when he wants best value.

Comparing low binned EOL part to latest and greatest in terms of offered value is going to end always the same way.

Comparing used, low binned, EOL part to latest and greatest in terms of offered value is stupid.

Again, how much HSA-compatibile i3-4130 is?

Also, AMD have good value propostion left and right (apu, dgpu, cpu, you name it) but how does that connect to Zen arch? I missed something apparently.

 

[SViscusi]

Boy all this discussion about Zen and the deal Asus is really interesting. I learned quite a bit and even the speculation is thought provoking.

 

[BSim500]

So, what part of Premium product Premium price for the A10-7850K didnt you understand ???

So "Premium" (ie, high end) gamers now actively shun GFX cards? Right...

Did you or didnt you over exaggerated about 720p 20fps ???

Given I linked to a Youtube vid doing just that, the answer is "no". Would you like to see a 14fps Crysis benchmark on "low" or is that the "wrong" kind of game and we're limiting everything to DOTA2?

Disclaimer : I have no "skin in the game" either way. However, I've read several times from 2 or 3 different people that you are an AMD reseller. Is this true? Just curious...

 

[AtenRa]

So "Premium" (ie, high end) gamers now actively shun GFX cards? Right...

Premium is not = to high-End only. You can have premium products at low-end as well.

Given I linked to a Youtube vid doing just that, the answer is "no". Would you like to see a 14fps Crysis benchmark on "low" or is that the "wrong" kind of game and we're limiting everything to DOTA2?

I can make a video at 14fps with a dGPU on Crysis, also the video is at 1080p not 720p.

Disclaimer : I have no "skin in the game" either way. However, I've read several times from 2 or 3 different people that you are an AMD reseller. Is this true? Just curious...

AMD, Intel, NVIDIA and many many more. Why ??

 

[mrmt]

Interesting how much spin someone can put on news. If Digitimes is right and AMD is trying to cajole ASUS into getting into the Zen bandwagon, this is anything but good news.

If AMD is having to pick preferential partners and give them better commercial terms, that means Zen value proposition isn't good at all. Had AMD an excellent product on the pipeline, with a very good value proposition, then it would be OEMs lining up in front of AMD's door to get the product not the other way around.

If this news is true, then it means Zen is too little too late for AMD.

 

[III-V]

Interesting how much spin someone can put on news. If Digitimes is right and AMD is trying to cajole ASUS into getting into the Zen bandwagon, this is anything but good news.

If AMD is having to pick preferential partners and give them better commercial terms, that means Zen value proposition isn't good at all. Had AMD an excellent product on the pipeline, with a very good value proposition, then it would be OEMs lining up in front of AMD's door to get the product not the other way around.

If this news is true, then it means Zen is too little too late for AMD.

I've not really paid any attention to this ASUS business, but wouldn't that preferential treatment be exactly the same as what Intel did during the P4 era?

 

[Abwx]

If AMD is having to pick preferential partners and give them better commercial terms, that means Zen value proposition isn't good at all.

Rebates are for current DT SKUs, the article is clear about it, i wonder how you managed to get to your "conclusion"...

I've not really paid any attention to this ASUS business, but wouldn't that preferential treatment be exactly the same as what Intel did during the P4 era?

It would be the same if AMD was blocking Intel from selling their CPUs to Asus thanks to this contract..

So do you think that it s the same given how much Intel powered devices Asus did release theses recent times.??.

 

[mrmt]

I've not really paid any attention to this ASUS business, but wouldn't that preferential treatment be exactly the same as what Intel did during the P4 era?

You mean when Intel didn't have the better value proposition on the market and had to use their financial muscle to not lose more market share for AMD? No.

OEMs *must* deal with Intel in one market bracket or the other, but you can easily think of AMD-free OEMs in any market bracket you want, so AMD has much less leverage than Intel on OEMs. Also Intel had foundry advantage that used to offset costs and performance gaps, while AMD has both a foundry and performance handicap, which further erodes their value proposition, and last, but not least, AMD has no financial muscle to talk about, they have a very precarious balance sheet, definitely not the kind of balance sheet that can withstand a price war.

So it is far worse than Intel with P4.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Who knows what the deal means really? Asus sells a lot of Intel products as well. Zen may or may not be great, or it may just be in the middle somewhere. But I certainly don't think some rumor of an unspecified deal 2 years away means that it will be some kind of world beater. I do like the fact that Asus seems to be pushing design wins for x86 in the tablet and convertible space though.

Considering the lack of progress and delays in recent releases from both Intel and amd, I am very skeptical of any speculation on performance improvements on upcoming products until we see actual benchmarks.

 

[cbn]

Comparing used, low binned, EOL part to latest and greatest in terms of offered value is stupid.

I didn't see anyone listing prices for used parts in this thread.

 

[ElFenix]

can we have one consolidated intel-amd current part holy war thread instead of all this crap getting rehashed for the billionth time in a thread about an upcoming part? i'm seriously tired of coming in here to look at news about upcoming stuff and seeing half the thread taken over in the same argument about whether the 7850k has any value or not.

 

[inf64]

can we have one consolidated intel-amd current part holy war thread instead of all this crap getting rehashed for the billionth time in a thread about an upcoming part? i'm seriously tired of coming in here to look at news about upcoming stuff and seeing half the thread taken over in the same argument about whether the 7850k has any value or not.

+1

You perfectly summed up what I noticed too.

 

[Paul98]

can we have one consolidated intel-amd current part holy war thread instead of all this crap getting rehashed for the billionth time in a thread about an upcoming part? i'm seriously tired of coming in here to look at news about upcoming stuff and seeing half the thread taken over in the same argument about whether the 7850k has any value or not.

+1

 

[NostaSeronx]

AMD's Zen architecture for Integer execution will be based on a SPARC/Alpha fusion.

Much like how Bulldozer's Integer unit is based on Alpha EV6;
http://i.imgur.com/0FxJ2BL.png
http://i.imgur.com/tvQ75Dw.png
http://info.nuje.de/BD_INT2.png

I'm trying find out what the FPU is based on. It isn't shared from what I can get from AMD's patents.

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD's Zen architecture for Integer execution will be based on a SPARC/Alpha fusion.

Wait. What? Which generation of SPARC are we talking about here? T2 is the last one available via OpenSPARC. I just don't know how much access AMD has to any of the other UltraSPARC designs. Do they have any crosslicensing deals with Oracle or something?

All that aside, are they really gonna try CMT again?

Hey, Rocky! Watch me pull CMT out of my hat!

Nothin up my sleeve . . .

 

[NostaSeronx]

Do they have any crosslicensing deals with Oracle or something?

AMD doesn't have crosslicensing deals, but they can always reverse engineer. Especially, if they hired the guy who created the architecture.

F. Design; EV9 "Tarantula"
M. Design; T2/T2+ "Niagara 2"

L1i Dual-ported (x instructions from a single port)
2 x Fetch
2 x Pick
2 x Decode
2 Thread groups with 2 Vector(EV9) Cores
1 Unified Stack Cache* (2 x LSU)

Stack Cache is half Register File and half Data Cache. It can usually handle multiple reads and writes with low latency in comparison to a traditional L1d. This would act like the Write Combining Buffer but it will be much faster.

L1d and L1i will be split into two parts; One for Module(A) and One for Module(B).
L2 will be split into four parts; One for each core in the dual-module cluster.

Stack TLB is interfaced with L2.

 

[el etro]

Buldozzer bad performance is not CMT fault.