[WCCF] AMD Kaveri Mobile APUs Vs. ULV Haswell Benchmarks

[jpiniero]

4670R doesnt cost that much more than a 7850K. 235$ vs 180$. And thats 65W vs 95W and a real quadcore with huge performance lead CPU wise. And Iris pro will be much much more common on the Broadwell line.

Tray price for the 4670R is 276. There is however a 4570R which is 20 bucks cheaper. Both are extremely rare though, it may as well not exist.

 

[caswow]

4670R doesnt cost that much more than a 7850K. 235$ vs 180$. And thats 65W vs 95W and a real quadcore with huge performance lead CPU wise. And Iris pro will be much much more common on the Broadwell line.

as far as i can see, i cant buy the 4670r here in europe. at least its nowhere listed.

 

[ShintaiDK]

as far as i can see, i cant buy the 4670r here in europe. at least its nowhere listed.

Its BGA and OEM only, thats why.

 

[AtenRa]

Have you seen this?

www.4gamer.net/games/999/G999902/20140208005

The huge lead they had in the Llano vs Sandy Bridge days got immensely reduced with Haswell vs Richland last year (mobile parts). Now excuse me if I am not impressed that a higher TDP 19W mobile Kaveri launching roughly a year after 15W Haswell-U GT3 barely beats it by 30% (3DMark). These GCN APUs should have a much larger lead against Intel's old and not so efficient Gen 7.5 iGPUs otherwise Broadwell could very well catch up as soon as Q4.

First of all the Corei5/7 Iris Pro is BGA only, that is you cannot buy the CPU alone and install it in the motherboard of your choice.

Secondly, the Gigabyte BRIX PRO GB-BXi5-4570R with the Core i5 4570R (the one in the review at 4gamer.net) costs $500 at newegg including 2x 4GB DDR-3L 1600MHz SOdimms.

A10-7850K = $180
ASROCK FM2A88X-ITX+ = $84
2x 4GB DDR-3 2133MHz CL10 = $67
APEVIA X-FIT-200 Black mini-itx Case with 250W PSU = $50 or AR $35

Total = $381 or AR $366

So you have to pay 36% more to have the same performance in some of the games and loose by a large margin in others like BF3.

Third, the Haswell Iris Pro die size is enormous for its 22nm process. It is bigger than Kaveri even without the eDRAM. So it takes Intel almost a 50% bigger die (264mm2 + 84mm2 for the eDRAM = 348mm2) to compete against 245mm2 Kaveri.

Im sorry but Intel doesn't have any product to compete against Kaveri GPU performance in the same segment and price.

 

[witeken]

I won't comment on price, but your calculation of graphics performance per mm² is simply wrong. You can't just take the 2 dies and compare them, because they also have other things besides graphics. For example, Core has 8MB of cache, versus Kaveri's 4MB. Why you include the size of eDRAM is a mystery to me, but when you exclude 4MB of cache from Core's die, to make it at least partially apples to apples (Kaveri doesn't have 128MB of eDRAM, too), the die sizes you end up with are suddenly quite similar.

 

[monstercameron]

I won't comment on price, but your calculation of graphics performance per mm² is simply wrong. You can't just take the 2 dies and compare them, because they also have other things besides graphics. For example, Core has 8MB of cache, versus Kaveri's 4MB. Why you include the size of eDRAM is a mystery to me, but when you exclude 4MB of cache from Core's die, to make it at least partially apples to apples (Kaveri doesn't have 128MB of eDRAM, too), the die sizes you end up with are suddenly quite similar.

what do you think is giving iris pro the edge, cuz its not the architecture alone...

 

[Shivansps]

You know, someone can buy a GTX750 and a G1830 for less money than a 7850K, and a 750K+GTX750 for just $20 more...

Im sure that both solutions will provide with higher gaming performance, So the 7850K its something that does not make sence to me at that price point on Desktop.


On ITX... well

GIGABYTE GV-N750OC-1GI -$119
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814125503

Celeron G1830 Haswell 2.8GHz - $54
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116973

ASRock H81M-ITX - $ 60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157451

Cooler Master Elite 130 - $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119286

Rosewill RV350-2 350W - $30
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817182023

the same mems on your config - $67

Total = $380, with a Pentium G3220 - $391

 

[monstercameron]

You know, someone can buy a GTX750 and a G1830 for less money than a 7850K, and a 750K+GTX750 for just $20 more...

Im sure that both solutions will provide with higher gaming performance, So the 7850K its something that does not make sence to me at that price point on Desktop.


On ITX... well

GIGABYTE GV-N750OC-1GI -$119
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814125503

Celeron G1830 Haswell 2.8GHz - $54
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116973

ASRock H81M-ITX - $ 60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157451

Cooler Master Elite 130 - $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119286

Rosewill RV350-2 350W - $30
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817182023

the same mems on your config - $67

Total = $380

this again sigh...this is about intels offerings vs amds offerings, not about the desktop necessarily and best perf/$...try and keep up!

 

[Shivansps]

this again sigh...this is about intels affoerings vs amds offerings, not about the desktop necessarily...try and keep up!

So we are not allowed to fill the PCI-E slot? that just ridiculus, i said this many times, i dont care about AMD or Intel offering i care about what i can buy for the money. Im not gona buy a 7850K just because its better price/performance to a 4570R, end of story.

 

[monstercameron]

So we are not allowed to fill the PCI-E slot? that just ridiculus, i said this many times, i dont care about AMD or Intel offering i care about what i can buy for the money. Im not gona buy a 7850K just because its better price/performance to a 4570R, end of story.

wth are you commenting about, this isnt about perf/$ this is about the trade offs between intel's offerings and AMD's offerings! what thread have you been reading?

 

[Shivansps]

wth are you commenting about, this isnt about perf/$ this is about the trade offs between intel's offerings and AMD's offerings! what thread have you been reading?

Easy, if you need to go newegg and make you own 7850K ITX pc to compare it to the BRIX with 4570R, while ignoring size, power and heat just to make something that its cheaper, i can do the exact same thing, at that point my comparison its valid from a price POV and its an Intel offering too, i cant do the same with a 750K because price goes up.

So, if AtenRA can go to newegg and make a custom ITX build to compare it to a BGA-only solution and make everthing about perf/$, i can do it too, you are ranting about me filling the pci-e slot, and thats makes no sence at all.

And thats what i tryied to point out, that both 7850K and I5-4570R sucks big time at perf/$, -also- you cant really compare to a BGA solution by perf/$ in that way, its gona have a OEM added value.

 

[USER8000]

You know, someone can buy a GTX750 and a G1830 for less money than a 7850K, and a 750K+GTX750 for just $20 more...

Im sure that both solutions will provide with higher gaming performance, So the 7850K its something that does not make sence to me at that price point on Desktop.


On ITX... well

GIGABYTE GV-N750OC-1GI -$119
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814125503

Celeron G1830 Haswell 2.8GHz - $54
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116973

ASRock H81M-ITX - $ 60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157451

Cooler Master Elite 130 - $50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119286

Rosewill RV350-2 350W - $30
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817182023

the same mems on your config - $67

Total = $380, with a Pentium G3220 - $391

Likewise it also is more performance in games than a Core i5 4570R too.

Easy, if you need to go newegg and make you own 7850K ITX pc to compare it to the BRIX with 4570R, while ignoring size, power and heat just to make something that its cheaper, i can do the exact same thing, at that point my comparison its valid from a price POV and its an Intel offering too, i cant do the same with a 750K because price goes up.

So, if AtenRA can go to newegg and make a custom ITX build to compare it to a BGA-only solution and make everthing about perf/$, i can do it too, you are ranting about me filling the pci-e slot, and thats makes no sence at all.

Go on some other enthusiast forums which people do ITX builds on(Overclockers UK and Overclock.net being two examples),and maybe you should look at some of the low profile mini SFF builds on them.

The base Core i5 4570R based Brix in the UK is at least £400 excluding HDD,RAM and OS. That means with Windows,8GB of RAM and a HDD,at least £550. Plus the Brix has been documented to have throttling issues at least for the Core i7 4770R version:

http://techreport.com/review/26166/gigabyte-brix-pro-reviewed/4

The Core i5 4570R,has only 4MB L3 cache,which is less than desktop Core i5 CPUs(same as high end Core i3 models),and has a significantly reduced base clockspeeds too:

http://ark.intel.com/products/76640/Intel-Core-i5-4570R-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_20-GHz

So instead of 3.2 to 3.9GHZ with 8MB L3 cache,you have 2.7GHZ to 3.2GHZ with 4MB L3 cache.

The Core i7 4770R runs at upto 1.3GHZ for the IGP and the Core i5 4570R runs at upto 1.15GHZ instead.

So the SKU is going to have lower performance overall than the Core i7 4770R.

Considering you can get very small SFF low profile mini-ITX cases from companies like Wesena,Antec(ISK low profile series),etc and having seen the builds people and mates have done in them,the R series Brix appears to be a solution looking for a problem at its current price. If Intel had a cheaper Core i3 version with the same IGP section it would make more sense.

Its even worse now you have a new Brix model with a downclocked HD7770. It comes in both AMD APU and Intel ULV CPU form,and most likely to be better for running any games too,especially with the Intel version.

 

[Shivansps]

Likewise it also more performance in games than a Core i5 4570R too.

Yes, i did not think it was needed 7850K and 4570R does not perform very far from each other.

 

[monstercameron]

Easy, if you need to go newegg and make you own 7850K ITX pc to compare it to the BRIX with 4570R, while ignoring size, power and heat just to make something that its cheaper, i can do the exact same thing, at that point my comparison its valid from a price POV and its an Intel offering too, i cant do the same with a 750K because price goes up.

So, if AtenRA can go to newegg and make a custom ITX build to compare it to a BGA-only solution and make everthing about perf/$, i can do it too, you are ranting about me filling the pci-e slot, and thats makes no sence at all.

And thats what i tryied to point out, that both 7850K and I5-4570R sucks big time at perf/$, -also- you cant really compare to a BGA solution by perf/$ in that way, its gona have a OEM added value.

read the thread title, atenra just used the top end of AMD's and Intel's offering to make a point, which is relevant down the line.

 

[Sweepr]

So, if AtenRA can go to newegg and make a custom ITX build to compare it to a BGA-only solution and make everthing about perf/$, i can do it too, you are ranting about me filling the pci-e slot, and thats makes no sence at all.

Double standards. Funny thing is that he gets really pissed off about Haswell Celeron vs AM1 Kabini comparisons just because Kabini is a more integrated solution and draws a bit less power than faster, similarly priced Haswell parts. Now when an Intel chip offers much better CPU performance and similar IGP performance at lower power levels it's all about die size and having the best perf/$. LGA Broadwell-K cant come soon enough.

 

[USER8000]

Now when an Intel chip offers much better CPU performance and similar IGP performance at lower power levels it's all about die size and having the best perf/$. LGA Broadwell-K cant come soon enough.

I cannot update any of my mates socket 1150 Core i3 systems with a Core i5 R series CPU as none are for sale,so ultimately it is the same as not existing for me. That includes one low profile build in this case:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6192/antec-isk-110-vesa-case-review-just-about-as-small-as-it-gets

The SFF barebones PCs with them are overpriced(at least in the UK) and have design issues(throttling),and its a flipping IGP.

The A10 7850K on top of this is too expensive too IMHO,let alone some Intel solution which even costs more,in a slower version than the Core i7 which was tested.

Who the heck wants to pay silly amounts of money for an IGP in a desktop?? Heck,even in a laptop it can possibly make more sense,but with the advances you can see with things like GTX860M in 2KG gaming laptops,why would anyone who wants to game,want to pay a premium,when a GTX860M will obliterate any current IGP??

IGPs only make sense for entry level and cheap systems.

Plus for thin laptops(around 1KG) all the more powerful IGPs tend to end up relying massively on boosting,which causes them to throttle anyway as cooling is too limited. Meh.

Edit!!

Here it is:

http://www.techpowerup.com/199531/eurocom-launches-the-worlds-most-powerful-13-3-ultraportable.html

EUROCOM M4 Specifications:

• Display: 13.3-inch (33.78cm); QHD+ 3200-by-1800 pixels; GT (Glare Type); 800:1; IPS Wide Viewing Angle Display; Backlight LED; eDP
• VGA Technology: on-board NVIDIA GTX 860M (Maxwell); 2GB of DDR5 VRAM; with NVIDIA Battery Boost and
• GPU Boost 2.0
• Chipset: High Performance Intel Mobile HM87 Express (Haswell)
• Processor: up to Intel Core i7-4940MX Processor Extreme Edition with HD Graphics 4600
• Memory: up to 16GB DDR3L-1600/1866; two SODIMM sockets; Dual Channel
• Storage: up to 3.5TB of storage; 3 physical SATA3 (6Gb/s) drives; 2x mSATA3 + 1x HDD/SSD
• Keyboard: Backlit keyboard with 3-levels of intensity
• Audio System: Sound Blaster Cinema; High Definition Audio; 2 built-in speakers and microphone
• Ports: USB 2.0; 3x USB 3.0 (1x powered AC/DC); HDMI 1.4a out; VGA; Headphone; Mic; RJ45/LAN
• Communication: 1Gigabit LAN; WLAN; Bluetooth
• Weight: 2kg / 4.4lbs (with battery)
• Dimensions: WxDxH 330x227x31.9mm; 13.2x9.98x1.28-inch
• Battery Life: up to 300 minutes; 62.16WH battery
• Security: Kensington Lock and Embedded TPM 1.2 (optional)

That GTX860M will wipe out any current Intel or AMD mobile IGP.

 

[AtenRa]

I won't comment on price, but your calculation of graphics performance per mm² is simply wrong. You can't just take the 2 dies and compare them, because they also have other things besides graphics. For example, Core has 8MB of cache, versus Kaveri's 4MB. Why you include the size of eDRAM is a mystery to me, but when you exclude 4MB of cache from Core's die, to make it at least partially apples to apples (Kaveri doesn't have 128MB of eDRAM, too), the die sizes you end up with are suddenly quite similar.

Intel Core i5 4570R only has 4MB of Cache according to Intel official site.

Also, eDRAM cost money to produce and it is sold as a component of the Iris Pro package. Intel practically gives away those SKUs for peanuts. The Die is huge with lower Yields than ordinary Core i5 Desktop Dies, You also have the eDRAM cost. Add the two together and make the SKU package and you add another expense raising the cost of the final product.
Not only that, but Intel sells those SKUs at a fraction higher than the Core i5 4670K that is only ~180mm2. Add the low volume of those SKUs and you get the whole picture.
The only meaningful SKU that Intel has is the Core i3 GT3 with a Die size of ~180mm2. That is the only real competitor to AMDs Richland and Kaveri. But again Intel only released it in BGA like it did with any GT3 and GT3e SKUs.

 

[AtenRa]

Double standards. Funny thing is that he gets really pissed off about Haswell Celeron vs AM1 Kabini comparisons just because Kabini is a more integrated solution and draws a bit less power than faster, similarly priced Haswell parts.

Those are targeting different market segments, Iris Pro targets the same market segment as Kaveri. Also, Iris Pro is not even available to be purchased in the retail market (Processor in Box) but people consider it when the conversation is about APUs.

Now when an Intel chip offers much better CPU performance and similar IGP performance at lower power levels it's all about die size and having the best perf/$. LGA Broadwell-K cant come soon enough.

Well yes the Core i5 4570R is faster than A10-7850K in CPU performance and has almost the same GPU performance. But saying that Intel is catching AMD in Graphics taking Iris Pro as an example is laughable.
It is like you would say that R9 290X is faster than GTX750 and because of that NVIDIA is lagging behind, not counting price and Die sizes.

 

[Vesku]

What's with all the desktop talk in a mobile thread? Not many notebooks you can add a dedicated GPU to after you have purchased it.

AMD's CPU deficit is less critical for most people's mobile needs until such time that the average Intel CPU can run regular apps but the AMD one can not. Battery time, size and weight, screen density+quality are at least as important if not more important to a great number of people buying mobile devices because the current software they run just needs roughly 2GHz Core 2 performance on the CPU side. Whereas better GPU performance as well as GPU support for various accelerators such as video formats is pretty important in a portable device you can not upgrade easily or at all.

 

[Blitzvogel]

what do you think is giving iris pro the edge, cuz its not the architecture alone...

I'm not sure if this was sarcasm towards him, but the answer is the eDRAM, which AMD has nothing analogous. It confounds me that AMD did not go triple channel with desktop platforms or put more L2 cache on Kaveri unless they figured out that it would take a massive amount (>32 MB) to yield any benefit to the CUs. I would hope that AMD has something up their sleeves like stacked eDRAM for their next APU because Intel is kicking their ass. Stacked eDRAM would be useful for ultra mobile CPUs too.

 

[Vesku]

eDRAM Intel HD isn't in many devices, imagine how few an AMD version would end up in. However, DDR4 should mean we will see more 2000+ 'MHz equivalent' memory in mass market APU devices.

 

[Enigmoid]

I'm not sure if this was sarcasm towards him, but the answer is the eDRAM, which AMD has nothing analogous. It confounds me that AMD did not go triple channel with desktop platforms or put more L2 cache on Kaveri unless they figured out that it would take a massive amount (>32 MB) to yield any benefit to the CUs. I would hope that AMD has something up their sleeves like stacked eDRAM for their next APU because Intel is kicking their ass. Stacked eDRAM would be useful for ultra mobile CPUs too.

Does AMD's implementation even allow the igp to use L2?

 

[ShintaiDK]

eDRAM Intel HD isn't in many devices, imagine how few an AMD version would end up in. However, DDR4 should mean we will see more 2000+ 'MHz equivalent' memory in mass market APU devices.

DDR4 is nothing more than a tiny plaster on a on open wound with a chainsaw. We are already 2 IGP versions out before you start off with DDR4 2133/2400Mhz. So its just as crippled as it is today, if not more.

eDRAM/eSRAM or stacked DRAM is simply required.

 

[Shivansps]

Those are targeting different market segments, Iris Pro targets the same market segment as Kaveri. Also, Iris Pro is not even available to be purchased in the retail market (Processor in Box) but people consider it when the conversation is about APUs.



Well yes the Core i5 4570R is faster than A10-7850K in CPU performance and has almost the same GPU performance. But saying that Intel is catching AMD in Graphics taking Iris Pro as an example is laughable.
It is like you would say that R9 290X is faster than GTX750 and because of that NVIDIA is lagging behind, not counting price and Die sizes.

People mentioned Iris Pro, but Iris Pro is not only on the R versions, its also on the mobile versions, actually they are the same thing with diferent clocks, turbos and TDP windows. That Brix where able to use R version on these things is kinda suprissing, and they are getting named because of these, we have benchmarks.
Them you decided to go and compare it to a 7850K, and... hang on a minute, i remember you telling me in my face that i cant compare the 5350 to a G1820... ok.

Likewise it also is more performance in games than a Core i5 4570R too.

Go on some other enthusiast forums which people do ITX builds on(Overclockers UK and Overclock.net being two examples),and maybe you should look at some of the low profile mini SFF builds on them.

The base Core i5 4570R based Brix in the UK is at least £400 excluding HDD,RAM and OS. That means with Windows,8GB of RAM and a HDD,at least £550. Plus the Brix has been documented to have throttling issues at least for the Core i7 4770R version:

http://techreport.com/review/26166/gigabyte-brix-pro-reviewed/4

The Core i5 4570R,has only 4MB L3 cache,which is less than desktop Core i5 CPUs(same as high end Core i3 models),and has a significantly reduced base clockspeeds too:

http://ark.intel.com/products/76640/Intel-Core-i5-4570R-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_20-GHz

So instead of 3.2 to 3.9GHZ with 8MB L3 cache,you have 2.7GHZ to 3.2GHZ with 4MB L3 cache.

The Core i7 4770R runs at upto 1.3GHZ for the IGP and the Core i5 4570R runs at upto 1.15GHZ instead.

So the SKU is going to have lower performance overall than the Core i7 4770R.

Considering you can get very small SFF low profile mini-ITX cases from companies like Wesena,Antec(ISK low profile series),etc and having seen the builds people and mates have done in them,the R series Brix appears to be a solution looking for a problem at its current price. If Intel had a cheaper Core i3 version with the same IGP section it would make more sense.

Its even worse now you have a new Brix model with a downclocked HD7770. It comes in both AMD APU and Intel ULV CPU form,and most likely to be better for running any games too,especially with the Intel version.

The thing with BRIX is, if you look at them, they use AMD Mobile, Atoms and Intel U versions on them, for some reason Gigabyte decided to go for the 65W R versions too, thats a lot of TDP on there, not sure if they are limiting it or not, it seems a bit too much to me.

Gigabyte could just slap in a 2955U with a 250X and its likely to get better gaming than any Iris Pro. Same applies to AMD APUs...

On mobile it happens something similar, because Intel was intending to get systems to use Iris Pro parts instead of adding a dgpu, thats is complicated and expensive, and they failed at that.

 

[Vesku]

DDR4 is nothing more than a tiny plaster on a on open wound with a chainsaw. We are already 2 IGP versions out before you start off with DDR4 2133/2400Mhz. So its just as crippled as it is today, if not more.

eDRAM/eSRAM or stacked DRAM is simply required.

Will be a nice increase for integrated GPU even if it's not as good as having an eDRAM cache.

50+% FPS gains in Linux going from DDR3-1333 to DDR3-2133.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_kaveri_memory&num=2

Granted will be a bit disappointing if lowest end DDR4 in notebooks isn't at least DDR4-1866. JEDEC spec has a DDR4-1600 speed bin but hopefully that will only be seen in phones and tablets.