Just lock em up!
But that wasn't what my response was speaking of, now was it?
Sometimes I can't tell if you're trolling, or if you're really that big of a jerk.
Just lock em up!
But that wasn't what my response was speaking of, now was it?
Sometimes I can't tell if you're trolling, or if you're really that big of a jerk.
eits
Lifer
sodium thiopental.
either way, a better option would be not to have people want to kill us.
you don't see terrorists scurrying around the globe and spending hundreds of millions of dollars to stage attacks in countries like canada or sweden, do you?
LISTEN TO THE INTERVIEW WHICH IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT I LINKED. HE PROVIDES SEVERAL PERSONAL ANECDOTES OF EXACTLY THE TYPE YOU ASKED FOR.
Why do I bother? Oh, and he calls the methods like those you think are so great for 'amateurs'.
Fair enough, I used that phrase because it's good marketing at the expense of making a better argument. I have no reason to believe you are "pro-torture", so in the interest of fairness, let's call you "pro-choice" on the torture issue
Now then, how about not playing the dodging the question game either? Whatever you call your position, the fact is that you guys present the interrogation alternatives like so...
1. Waterboarding
2. Pampering them at a 5 star hotel
3. ???
That must sound ridiculous even when you're writing it, but damn it all if you guys don't make that same argument every time this topic comes up. To borrow your phrase, you're better than that.
That's ridiculous, I see ZERO evidence that the myriad of other interrogation techniques don't work, or work less well than waterboarding. Your super-terrorist aside, most of the techniques palehorse74 mentioned (and others he didn't) have been proven over and over again. This isn't the movies, terrorists AREN'T ultra-intelligent, totally emotionless bad guys. And I find a lot of fault with the belief that we need completely new techniques to deal with them.
So you're saying we should build policy around completely imaginary scenarios that may or may not happen? I could come up with just as many scenarios where waterboarding would be a BAD idea, or where we need to immediately deploy sled dogs on the Canadian border to repel terrorists trying to cross.
The way to think about security is in terms of risks and costs. If the only bar you set is being able to imagine a scenario where something might come in handy, our security will quickly get out of hand, because imagining things is easy. But while your way of thinking is silly, the scary part is that a lot of people share it, and you can justify just about any atrocity that way.
No. In case you skipped your class on "The evil Muslims: Terrorists at our door", you would remember that low level members of the groups are kept in the dark just up until "go time". They are also only aware of their particular mission according to the same sources to keep the "ticking time bomb" scenario from being used against them because they only know of a single plan -- THEIRS.
Pure and utter stupidity. The "9/11 mastermind" is still at large. Or do you have information regarding the capture of Bin Laden or Zawahiri that you can link the rest of us to?
So, why are you still supporting those that are trying to subvert our constitution, laws and treaties?
How can you prove that WB isn't more widely used? You are only going off of what the government is telling you. I have a vague recollection of the same government telling us that they weren't wiretapping American citizens. I also remember them telling us that Iran was an eminent threat because of their WMD program that stopped a couple of years ago and they were informed that the intel was leaning that way months ago but still stated the opposite.
How about you prove that it IS only used as a last resort? Why are those opposed required to prove a negative?
I think that you should undergo some of these "methods" without prior knowledge that they are only testing you and then be interviewed a few years later to see if you are still in teh "boo-fucking-hoo" mindset.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
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A 2002 U.S. intelligence report said that al-Qaida leader Ibn Sheikh al-Libi, whom the CIA sent to Egypt for questioning, coughed up bogus information when he said that Iraq had trained al-Qaida members to use biological and chemical weapons.
Ooops. Torture -->> war propaganda -->> WAR!
Yes! Sadaam worked with al Qaeda! Now please remove the electrodes from my testes! Please!
Ooops. Torture -->> war propaganda -->> WAR!
Yes! Sadaam worked with al Qaeda! Now please remove the electrodes from my testes! Please!
Stopped reading part way through the thread since it seemed to turn into a flame fest, but my thought are as follows:
I don't consider terrorists human beings
Committing torture on terrorists doesn't bother me one bit.
We wouldn't have such a huge problem with terrorists and wide-spread anti-American sentiment if we could mind our own business every now and then. Let's focus on our own continent for awhile.
I don't consider terrorists human beings
Committing torture on terrorists doesn't bother me one bit.
We wouldn't have such a huge problem with terrorists and wide-spread anti-American sentiment if we could mind our own business every now and then. Let's focus on our own continent for awhile.
My opinion is that using waterboarding in the aftermath of 911 as a method to extract information in order to prevent another 911 is a very human response. 3000 of us died a very horrible, frightening and painful death on 911 and it is understandable that some of us might have overreacted in the aftermath to prevent another one.
I think it's best to just agree that we should not do this anymore and move on. I don't see any point in trying to bring any of the interrogators to trial for this. I personally don't think Waterboarding is in the same league as beheadings and it's hard for me to become outraged over the thought that someone who beheaded someone was waterboarded.
I think it's best to just agree that we should not do this anymore and move on. I don't see any point in trying to bring any of the interrogators to trial for this. I personally don't think Waterboarding is in the same league as beheadings and it's hard for me to become outraged over the thought that someone who beheaded someone was waterboarded.
- Feb 23, 2005
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youre naive. First, as we all know, the US has been attacked many times before 9/11, so to use the excuse "The Iraq War" makes them hate us is bullshit.
These extreme terrorists who take such great measure to kill us will only stop under ONE condition: convert to Islam.
Period. And because that isnt going to happen, they will always hate us. Get real man.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
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It's a rhetorical response to the seeming, erm, pro-kindness to terrorists (couldn't think of anything else that fitOriginally posted by: Rainsford
Fair enough, I used that phrase because it's good marketing at the expense of making a better argument. I have no reason to believe you are "pro-torture", so in the interest of fairness, let's call you "pro-choice" on the torture issue
Now then, how about not playing the dodging the question game either? Whatever you call your position, the fact is that you guys present the interrogation alternatives like so...
1. Waterboarding
2. Pampering them at a 5 star hotel
3. ???
That must sound ridiculous even when you're writing it, but damn it all if you guys don't make that same argument every time this topic comes up. To borrow your phrase, you're better than that.
) crew who get all bent out of shape because we used an interrogation technique that causes physical discomfort and mental distress. Sure, I personally wouldn't want to be subjected to it. Then again, I don't go around planning the purposeful mass murder of innocent people. These guys are brutal. I don't have any qualms about treating them brutally right back, particularly if it means we can save many lives in the process.In this case the waterboarding got results. So regardless of all the claims that such torture doesn't work it did this time. The boy began singing and it helped us uncover other plots and stop some attacks.
Abu Zubaydah survived the process. Apparently while he was prepared to die for the glory of Allah he wasn't willing to do it by drowning.
- Feb 23, 2005
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Perhaps you should step back and remember we are, including our government, is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Until it is proven, its SPECULATION, therefor any argument stemming from that is, well, bullshit.
eits
Lifer
i'm naive? you're the one who thinks torture works, and you're calling me naive? :laugh:
it's not the iraq war that makes them hate us... it's our entire approach to foreign relations and policy and our support of israel regardless of whether they're right or wrong in their actions against palestine.
terrorists really don't give a good goddamn whether we convert to islam or not. they're not even really muslims... they're just brainwashed radicals who are trying to make a buck for their family by killing themselves and taking out a bunch of others for the leader of their cell... it just makes them a lot more comfortable doing it if they say they're doing it for allah and for their very real hatred for the west (israel supporters).
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is generally accepted as the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks..
Of course, when you refer to our roster of high-value detainees and start doing the math, the dozen or more people we waterboarded my have provided conflicting information . . .
So who knows ??? Other than destroying the reputation of the Land Of The Free, waterboarding has not brought us the prize:
Osama bin Laden
The NeanderCons continue their special brand of Bush Derangement Syndrome. . . .
Of course, when you refer to our roster of high-value detainees and start doing the math, the dozen or more people we waterboarded my have provided conflicting information . . .
So who knows ??? Other than destroying the reputation of the Land Of The Free, waterboarding has not brought us the prize:
Osama bin Laden
The NeanderCons continue their special brand of Bush Derangement Syndrome. . . .
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
It's a rhetorical response to the seeming, erm, pro-kindness to terrorists (couldn't think of anything else that fitOriginally posted by: Rainsford
Fair enough, I used that phrase because it's good marketing at the expense of making a better argument. I have no reason to believe you are "pro-torture", so in the interest of fairness, let's call you "pro-choice" on the torture issue
Now then, how about not playing the dodging the question game either? Whatever you call your position, the fact is that you guys present the interrogation alternatives like so...
1. Waterboarding
2. Pampering them at a 5 star hotel
3. ???
That must sound ridiculous even when you're writing it, but damn it all if you guys don't make that same argument every time this topic comes up. To borrow your phrase, you're better than that.
Isn't there room for fighting evil without slipping towards BEING evil? This isn't about the terrorists, it's about us. I don't think we should be "nice" to them, but I also don't think terrorism is a good excuse to throw our principles overboard. Basically, I think the whole "post 9/11" mindset is silly. These are not different times, and I see no reason we can't face this threat in an upright and civilized manner. And in this case, I find "but they are bad guys too!" to be a particularly dumb argument. Of course they are bad guys, they are terrorists...isn't one of the things we're allegedly fighting them for is to "preserve western civilization"? If so, it would seem essential to highlight the many ways in which we ARE civilized. I'm not equating waterboard with beheading, but even moving in that direction a little bit costs us the moral high ground...sure they might be worse, but we're not exactly upright citizens either. And while a lot of folks could care less about the moral high ground, I think there is a real cost to that.
I don't see anywhere it says that in the article, and I especially don't see any argument that less extreme methods wouldn't have worked just as well. I never argued that waterboarding people wouldn't get them to talk, I'm just saying the cost isn't justified by the questionable benefits. The means justifying the ends is a pretty immoral argument to begin with, but when the ends aren't even all that impressive, the argument is even worse.
- Feb 23, 2005
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Wow man. You are naive. I dont even know what to say. You should watch the few smuggled video's of these group's recruitment meetings and hear what they have to say. Foreign policy isnt even mentioned lol. It's allll about Allah and our refusal to convert. Ya might wanna read the Koran where it gives them open season to take justice in their own hands.
youre out of your league here, junior.
- Feb 23, 2005
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eits
Lifer
eits
Lifer
you'd be a fool to assume he doesn't. and if he didn't have any power and torture was so effective, why do you think torture hasn't given us bin laden yet? don't you think people would figure, "fuck, it's only bin laden... as if he actually has any power," and cough him up?
i'm done with you and this thread. all you're doing is contradicting yourself and posting questions to answers that were JUST GIVEN. it's like talking to a brick wall, except the brick wall's got a higher iq.
- Feb 23, 2005
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You have to read it to see it. First page, 4th paragraph:
As far as our moral ground, gimme a break. We've never dealt with an enemy such as this. Drastic actions require drastic response. Thats why the whole following Geneva Conv thing is assinine. It only applies to enemies who also recognize it. No one else.
Playing any other way than dirty when dealing with an enemy who wants nothing more than you dead, period, requires nothing short of brutality. The truth is hard to swallow, but nice doesnt work here.
- Feb 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: eits
did you read a thing i wrote?
You mean your bullshit statement about Isreal? Please.
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