Waterboarding: sometimes it's necessary

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: eskimospy

This post does nothing other then prove Rainsford right. You simply don't know what you're talking about, and nothing people are saying to you seems to be making the slightest dent.

See my reply to him above.

Chuck

What's interesting about your post is that you're writing as if you are this person who really Knows How The World Works, and that you're trying to deal with people who are hopelessly idealistic.

The sad part is that your position is one of near total ignorance, you said yourself that you don't think you need to know anything more then you think you already do. There is no point in arguing with you because you simply don't know enough about the topic to have a discussion with.

So many of your assertions are wildly wrong and obviously are a product of something you saw in a movie or on TV. I don't blame you for being influenced by those things, but I do blame you for refusing to educate yourself when the alternatives are pointed out.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

What's interesting about your post is that you're writing as if you are this person who really Knows How The World Works, and that you're trying to deal with people who are hopelessly idealistic.

The sad part is that your position is one of near total ignorance, you said yourself that you don't think you need to know anything more then you think you already do. There is no point in arguing with you because you simply don't know enough about the topic to have a discussion with.

So many of your assertions are wildly wrong and obviously are a product of something you saw in a movie or on TV. I don't blame you for being influenced by those things, but I do blame you for refusing to educate yourself when the alternatives are pointed out.

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well one thing for sure, if John Kirakou ever end up in the Hague for war crimes, his own words just lost him any defense he could now mount.

Its now premeditated crimes against humanity, in short the worst of the worst.

Keep dreaming; no American is showing up in the Hague for war crimes no matter how many times you pray daily for that to happen.

I could understand Lemon and other?s attitudes, by our own people, if we were physically maiming the Muslims so badly that they were begging for death to end their pain/suffering.

Yet we aren't, yet the cold and calculated attacks against us, BY OUR OWN PEOPLE, continue constantly and ideologically. If push ever comes to shove we'd have to fight a civil war here at home just to fight a war properly.

Waterboarding is NOTHING compared to what we COULD be doing, yet we're treated like the worst of the worst. I've nothing but contempt and hatred for those who attack us, both foreign and domestic.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well one thing for sure, if John Kirakou ever end up in the Hague for war crimes, his own words just lost him any defense he could now mount.

Its now premeditated crimes against humanity, in short the worst of the worst.

Keep dreaming; no American is showing up in the Hague for war crimes no matter how many times you pray daily for that to happen.

I could understand Lemon and other?s attitudes, by our own people, if we were physically maiming the Muslims so badly that they were begging for death to end their pain/suffering.

Yet we aren't, yet the cold and calculated attacks against us, BY OUR OWN PEOPLE, continue constantly and ideologically. If push ever comes to shove we'd have to fight a civil war here at home just to fight a war properly.

Waterboarding is NOTHING compared to what we COULD be doing, yet we're treated like the worst of the worst. I've nothing but contempt and hatred for those who attack us, both foreign and domestic.

Are you saying that because we could be doing worse things that doing something wrong is okay?

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

You can send me the links, I will look at them. And answer me this, Yes or No:

Did, with the inclusion of waterboarding and most likely because of it, we get the information we needed to find the 9/11 mastermind?

Now realize, if you answer Yes, I don't care one iota what your links have to say....and that's not because I don't want to learn. It's because in those cases, waterboarding worked. And that's exactly what this guy implied by saying it saved lives. He says it sux, that in his opinion there's not such a pressing need for it any longer, but that it worked.

And that's my point: Why are we taking off the table something that works - and works in a very timely fashion - simply because it causes mental duress to some bad dude?

I don't dispute waterboarding is torture (although really it's mental instead of physical), or that it should be a last resort type of thing.

Chuck

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
It is MORALLY REPUGNANT, but more importantly it is UNRELIABLE. Stop pretending this is a good solution.

I disagree - it is unreliable, but more importantly it is morally repugnant.

 

[eits]

torture is never necessary and is rarely ever effective.

 

[Czar]

good to see they admit that its torture, now we can go on and uphold current laws and put them on trial

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Are you saying that because we could be doing worse things that doing something wrong is okay?

I'm saying you treat and assault us over the issue just the same.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: chucky2

And that's my point: Why are we taking off the table something that works - and works in a very timely fashion - simply because it causes mental duress to some bad dude?

I don't dispute waterboarding is torture (although really it's mental instead of physical), or that it should be a last resort type of thing.

Chuck

This seems short sighted, and relegates mental harm to some lesser realm than physical. You think the shell-shocked soldiers coming back from Vietnam who have nightmares the rest of their life and flashbacks, and visions of friends being blown up, that's not so bad because it's merely mental? I think those guys would trade a few bullet wounds and some beatings for a lifetime of fear.

And what about when we are able to simply stimulate pain receptors in the brain directly, without causing any physical damage at all? It will be purely the perception of pain (unending, constant, excruciating) without any bruising to the body...acceptable because it's mental?

I.e. in a sci-fi book called Altered Carbon, the protagonists consciousness is downloaded into a computer where he is tortured horribly. He's put into the body of a young girl who is systematically beaten and raped in a cell. They insert a soldering iron into her vagina and slowly heat it up. This goes on again and again for days. When he finally gets released back into the real world, there's not a mark on his body. How does the mental/physical differentiation have any application at all here?

You have to make a stand and draw a clear bright line on what is ok, and what is not. And you don't do it by rating individual torture techniques on a scale of 1 to 10. You do a moral calculation and determine policy from there. And you listen to your lifelong interrogators' advice.

 

[Moonbeam]

Only human garbage would torture or support the torture of another human.

 

[palehorse]

FM 2-22.3 Human Intelligence Collector Operations

OK, given the above manual, the standard used for training of ALL DoD interrogators, how would you expand, or detract from, the following list of sanctioned interrogation (approach) techniques?

* Direct
* Incentive
* Fear Up
* Fear Down
* Love/Hate of comrade
* Love/Hate of family
* Love/Hate of country
* Pride and Ego Up
* Pride and Ego Down
* Futility
* We-know-all
* Rapid-fire Questioning
* File-and-dossier
* Establish your identity
* Silent
* Mutt and Jeff (Good Cop/Bad Cop) - restricted use
* Separation - restricted use
* False-flag - restricted use

As it stands, the above is a list of the ONLY interrogation methods available to DoD interrogators today. (Feel free to read up on them to get a better idea of what each one means).

Going beyond that list would require approval wayyyy beyond my level and paygrade, but here are a few examples of what we've all heard about over the years: sleep deprivation, temperature fluctuations, loud music/noises, isolation, stress positions, and, of course, water-boarding.

So, once again, given ALL of the examples listed above, both approved and rumored, what would each of you add or take away? Is water-boarding the only option that needs to be debated?

Tell me how you REALLY feel...

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eits
torture is never necessary and is rarely ever effective.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eits
torture is never necessary and is rarely ever effective.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I really do think I'm right when I say... Not being the imperialist pricks of the world would help. We piss a LOT of people off for NO reason.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

What is wrong with killing you and the country you represent if you and your country torture people? You are just human garbage. You aren't worth being an American.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

What is wrong with killing you and the country you represent if you and your country torture people? You are just human garbage. You aren't worth being an American.

What is wrong with torturing you and the people you represent if you and your people murder innocents indiscriminately in the name of your religion? You are just human garbage anyway. You aren't worth being a Muslim.

Your argument can be posed in a number of ways.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp
If it's really justified, why are they trying to cover it up?
Doesn't wash with me.

Because they know candy-asses, like ones on this board, would cry like little babies in sympathy for our enemies. If you read the article, you would have read why.

That's a strawman and you know it, besides being patently offensive.

I want our country to have nothing to do with any form of torture, it's just not a standard we should be willing to give up for any reason.

That said, I have zero 'sympathy' for our enemies. It's not for them that I don't want torture condoned, it's for every American citizen whose name it is done under. It's dishonorable at best, and brings us down to the level of horrible regimes from the past. I have absolutely zero qualms about killing as many enemies as possible on the battlefield, or wherever we come in conflict with them at. Pile their bodies high, I care not. But torturing them demeans US.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

Guess you didn't listen to that NPR interview because they describe at least two such situations doing exactly what you just asked for.

If you look at palehorse's list of interrogation techniques that the DoD has currently authorized you won't see such things in there either. Do you really think the DoD has just given up on interrogation and is only using ineffective techniques?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eits
torture is never necessary and is rarely ever effective.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

I know I'll get flamed for this, but I really do think I'm right when I say... Not being the imperialist pricks of the world would help. We piss a LOT of people off for NO reason.

So let me get this straight. If you have someone in your custody who not only has every intention of doing your country and your people harm, and has in the past, we should leave it be?

amazing.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

What is wrong with killing you and the country you represent if you and your country torture people? You are just human garbage. You aren't worth being an American.

Thanks for the non relevant answer Moonie.

/spit

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

Guess you didn't listen to that NPR interview because they describe at least two such situations doing exactly what you just asked for.

If you look at palehorse's list of interrogation techniques that the DoD has currently authorized you won't see such things in there either. Do you really think the DoD has just given up on interrogation and is only using ineffective techniques?

Perhaps you missed this:

Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

All the NPR article suggests, and all these other generals have suggested, is SUGGESTIONS. No evidence a kinder, gentler method that has yielded SIGNIFICANT results.

Read it again. Thanks.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2

God, I'm sorry eskimospy, I had absolutely no idea you did interrogations for a living!!! I mean, who am I to use common sense here....I default to your expertise... :roll:

I await your link to the NPR interview with Harrington or whatever his name was....

Chuck

You can continue to take joy in your ignorance if you want to. If you are actually interested in learning about torture and its effectiveness in interrogations I can send you a whole list of links that you can use to educate yourself. I'm dead serious. (It would have to be tomorrow as I'm trying to write something right now and really should limit my distractions, but I really will do it and PM it to you)

Nobody here is an expert, but when you're talking about things you don't have experience with the smart thing to do is go read up about the subject. You read one article and decided it was all you needed to know. I told you as much and you came back and said you didn't need to learn any more about the subject. Well, that's fine and all... but don't expect to be able to talk intelligently about it in that case. What you have written so far has just been a mix of unfounded opinions loosely tethered to one single solitary link and I'm sure an extensive career of TV watching.

Stop being an ignorant idiot for a minute. You don't have to 'win' this fight, we're all better off when we know more, and I honestly think when you do some research on the subject you will see why this is such a bad idea. Rainsford went through and spelled out to you pretty clearly why what you were saying was wrong (better then I did I bet) and you ignored him too. It's now obvious to me that you don't care.

Can you tell us or point us to an alternative to get infomation from someone who wants nothing more than kill you and the country you represent? Since we're all experts in waterboarding, and can watch it on youtube, where's the articles explaining an alternative? Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

Guess you didn't listen to that NPR interview because they describe at least two such situations doing exactly what you just asked for.

If you look at palehorse's list of interrogation techniques that the DoD has currently authorized you won't see such things in there either. Do you really think the DoD has just given up on interrogation and is only using ineffective techniques?

Perhaps you missed this:

Where's the videos of non torture methods that yield highly sensitive and important information? All I ever see is "there are other ways". Like what for example? Since we have documented proof of positive results from waterboarding, where's the documented proof another method has yielded such important info?

All the NPR article suggests, and all these other generals have suggested, is SUGGESTIONS. No evidence a kinder, gentler method that has yielded SIGNIFICANT results.

Read it again. Thanks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...s/A2302-2005Jan11.html

John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

 

[blackangst1]

I would love to see these "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop" statements that have proven wrong.

Love the vagueness of these arguments. One general says hard methods work, and has yielded results (proven). Another says soft methods have worked (proven). Each saying in the other is wrong, when both are actually right.

Sorry. WB isnt used often (prove it otherwise).
It has yielded valuable results (prove it hasnt).
It is used as last resort (prove if its not).
It produces harmful PCSYCHOLOGICAL damage (boo-fucking-hoo) and not physical (prove it doesnt).

Thats pretty much what it boils down to.