Water injection for more hp AND mpg?

[Ultima]

Seems like that's what this guy is doing!

I've never heard of something like this before. This guy also has some ram-air setup which supposedly gave him 5 mpg more as well as a substantial increase in hp. Ram-air

 

Reason: A lot of people have asked me why I am doing this, or told me that it will not work. My main reason for building this is not for cooling the air, but for the increase in power from the expansion of the water spray into steam (which is much more than the exploding fuel mixture alone). Converting water to steam is a product of the heat generated from the fuel ignition. This lowers the temperature and modifies the characteristics of the expanding gasses in the cylinder during the power stroke. The ignition flame front will travel slower with the water injection and as such timing can be advance for even more power gains. The slower moving flame front causes the power stroke to be accomplished with a lower peak pressure, because energy is being absorbed from the heat generated by fuel ignition to convert the water in to steam. Though the power stroke duration is longer, [/b]there is more energy because of steam expansion,[/b] creating considerably more torque with little increase in horsepower. Which will be an advantage when accelerating.

One word...

Bullsh!t

This guys rational is way out of the ballpark.

Lowering the temperature of the expanding gasses will result in lower pressure and less work being performed.

"There is more energy because of steam expansion"

You only get out what you put in, it is impossible to extract more enrgy from the combustion event unless you add more air and fuel.

The only staement that bears a comment is the one where he states that you can advance the ignition timing for more power, but, modern engines run at the detonation limit as it is because of the advancement in cumbustion chamber shapes and efficiancies, this will work on a hot running air cooled engine but will have no effect what so ever on a modern water cooled internal combustion engine.

I, personally have used several types of commercial water injection systems on my Corvairs and VW's, they work well to quench detonation in air cooled engines, as for increased fuel mileage and increased power ?

Never.

there are also several large drawbacks to such systems ;

(1)Shortened exhuast component life
(2)The possibility of hydrualic lock
(3)Contamination of oil with water (no engine can contain 100% of the combustion gasses, they will work there way into the oiling sysytem)

 

[CurtCold]

Well with Bush's new plan for Hydrogen cars, performace with water produced as a biproduct....is probably still years away... 😛

It would be nice to not need so much oil, so we could tell opec to kiss it though.

 

Over the past few months I have discovered some disadvantages to using water injection. If the fuel:water ratio is too high, some excess water will remain in the combustion chamber after it should have been changed to steam. If this situation arises it will thin the oil slightly. I was experiencing this slight (very, very slight) oil thinning with the 10:1 fuel:water base ratio, changing over to 14.7:1 solved the problem. I did worry about ring wear from using the water injection (steam cleaning effect in the combustion chamber stripping the walls of oil, increasing friction on the rings), so much so, that I was checking my compression nearly every day. After no real changes in compression tests over a month period, I decided to switch to a thicker oil (10w30 and later 15w50 over 5w30 Mobil 1 Synthetic) and use Engine Restore (which I have seen work good in the past on my engine and others) as precautionary measures, and still after about 5 months of use, no changes real changes in compression on any cylinder. All in all, I would have to say the positives much outweigh the negatives with water injection, I have seen a good gain in performance with the only major problem being all the constant worrying I had to live with originally.

That one bold and underlined statement says it all about this guy.

Only fools buy engine rebuild in a can 😛

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

What new plan for fuel cells did Bush propose? Last I heard he dusted off the same old jazz about not supporting improved efficiency through vehicle/engine design, alternative fuels, and hybrids in favor of hydrogen fuel cells which may be commercially-viable in 10-20 years.

Considering less than 1/4 of all US oil imports come from the Middle East, if US automakers matched the fuel efficiency of the Japanese America could tell the whole region to piss off. Furthermore, America might have a fighting chance at selling vehicles in countries where petrol costs $1 per litre.

 

[CurtCold]

Originally posted by: Roger

Over the past few months I have discovered some disadvantages to using water injection. If the fuel:water ratio is too high, some excess water will remain in the combustion chamber after it should have been changed to steam. If this situation arises it will thin the oil slightly. I was experiencing this slight (very, very slight) oil thinning with the 10:1 fuel:water base ratio, changing over to 14.7:1 solved the problem. I did worry about ring wear from using the water injection (steam cleaning effect in the combustion chamber stripping the walls of oil, increasing friction on the rings), so much so, that I was checking my compression nearly every day. After no real changes in compression tests over a month period, I decided to switch to a thicker oil (10w30 and later 15w50 over 5w30 Mobil 1 Synthetic) and use Engine Restore (which I have seen work good in the past on my engine and others) as precautionary measures, and still after about 5 months of use, no changes real changes in compression on any cylinder. All in all, I would have to say the positives much outweigh the negatives with water injection, I have seen a good gain in performance with the only major problem being all the constant worrying I had to live with originally.

That one bold and underlined staement says it all about this guy.

Roger's all over this auto scheme....😛

 

[CurtCold]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
What new plan for fuel cells did Bush propose? Last I heard he dusted off the same old jazz about not supporting improved efficiency through vehicle/engine design, alternative fuels, and hybrids in favor of hydrogen fuel cells which may be commercially-viable in 10-20 years.

Considering less than 1/4 of all US oil imports come from the Middle East, if US automakers matched the fuel efficiency of the Japanese America could tell the whole region to piss off. Furthermore, America might have a fighting chance at selling vehicles in countries where petrol costs $1 per litre.

I could be wrong, but I think he proposed 1.3Billion? Million, not sure for research into hydrogen powered vehicles, and cleaner air. Part of that money is going to decrease current air pollution by 70% supposidly. I hope he helps push the hydrogen vehicles. Supposidly a child born right now would be driving one when they turn 16 according to Mr.Bush.

If the only side effect is a water by product this sounds great to me!

 

[speed01]

You should notice that your car performs better in cool, damp weather conditions and this is because the air is denser which means more fuel will be burnt with the extra air and the resulting air/fuel ratio will be neater to optimum(assuming the engine is jetted correctly normally in cold conditions). By adding a water injection system to your vehicle it is possible to artificially simulating these conditions and adjusting the turbo boost level or advancing the timing it is possible to achieve an increased power and fuel economy, whilst suppressing detonation and producing less harmful emissions, cleaner pistons, valves and plugs.
Taken fromhere

It appears that some are doing this.....

Speed

 

[aircooled]

Originally posted by: Roger

Over the past few months I have discovered some disadvantages to using water injection. If the fuel:water ratio is too high, some excess water will remain in the combustion chamber after it should have been changed to steam. If this situation arises it will thin the oil slightly. I was experiencing this slight (very, very slight) oil thinning with the 10:1 fuel:water base ratio, changing over to 14.7:1 solved the problem. I did worry about ring wear from using the water injection (steam cleaning effect in the combustion chamber stripping the walls of oil, increasing friction on the rings), so much so, that I was checking my compression nearly every day. After no real changes in compression tests over a month period, I decided to switch to a thicker oil (10w30 and later 15w50 over 5w30 Mobil 1 Synthetic) and use Engine Restore (which I have seen work good in the past on my engine and others) as precautionary measures, and still after about 5 months of use, no changes real changes in compression on any cylinder. All in all, I would have to say the positives much outweigh the negatives with water injection, I have seen a good gain in performance with the only major problem being all the constant worrying I had to live with originally.

That one bold and underlined statement says it all about this guy.

Only fools buy engine rebuild in a can 😛

Roger knows what he's talking about!

At least in the days of Alcohol injection, Alcohol is combustable! (of course that's not done anymore either)

 

[308nato]

Worked great on this....., especially when they added methanol to the water.

 

[speed01]

This place even guarantees the improvements in HP and MPG

Not that I'm saying any of this works, just some other info concerning the subject..

Speed

 

[BooneRebel]

Roger, you mean that I really can't rebuild my engine from a can? Bummer. I read the back of the can and it sounds like it will work...





























Seriously, I have an old Ford big-block that's been sitting for about 20 years. It only has 50K miles on it but has very low compression, I'm assuming due to the seals drying up in it. I've seriously considered buying one of the 'wonder' treatments to try out, I don't have anything to lose at this point. Do you know of anything that might work, short of pulling the block and replacing all of the seals & gaskets?

 

[FenrisUlf]

Originally posted by: CurtCold
Well with Bush's new plan for Hydrogen cars, performace with water produced as a biproduct....is probably still years away... 😛

It would be nice to not need so much oil, so we could tell nato to kiss it though.

So, we get our oil from NATO? Somebody better tell OPEC, they might want to know.😉

The only place I can see this water injection working with is due to the fact that water is incompressable. This means that you will get a slightly higher compression ratio. You might be able to get more power out of your engine due to the cooling effects of the water, but the lowering of temperatures should decrease efficiency. This water injection has been around forever. I've seen it for 20+ years, and so far there has been no scientifically documented cases of improvement. Plus, it's just one more thing to go wrong.

On a related subject, B-52s use water injection in their engines for short distance takeoffs. The water increases the pressure in the combustion chambers, improving power ouput (but decreasing efficiency). It also adds mass to the exhaust, resulting in greater thrust. But it uses so much water that there is only about a minute worth of boost.

 

You should notice that your car performs better in cool, damp weather conditions and this is because the air is denser which means more fuel will be burnt with the extra air and the resulting air/fuel ratio will be neater to optimum(assuming the engine is jetted correctly normally in cold conditions). By adding a water injection system to your vehicle it is possible to artificially simulating these conditions and adjusting the turbo boost level or advancing the timing it is possible to achieve an increased power and fuel economy, whilst suppressing detonation and producing less harmful emissions, cleaner pistons, valves and plugs.

Let me explain what's wrong with this staement, yes a cooler charge of air is denser, therefor more air will enter the engine, but, this applies to the atmosphere that the vehicle is driven in, injecting water into the intake track will not condense the the air enough for a larger air charge to enter the combustion chamber.
You must realize that the air entering the carburetor or throttle body is still warm, therefor the air charge is not as dense, by the time the air charge has a chance to cool down and become denser, the intake has already opened and closed and that cylinder has fired already.
The only real effective way to cool the intake charge is to spray a mist of water in a sealed room surrounding the vehicle.

 

Seriously, I have an old Ford big-block that's been sitting for about 20 years. It only has 50K miles on it but has very low compression, I'm assuming due to the seals drying up in it. I've seriously considered buying one of the 'wonder' treatments to try out, I don't have anything to lose at this point. Do you know of anything that might work, short of pulling the block and replacing all of the seals & gaskets?

Engine rebuild in a can claims to reseal piston rings, not seals, you can try a commercially available stop leak product, but don't get your hopes up !

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Rogerbut don't get your hopes up !

Too late. I'm grinning ear-to-ear, running out the door right now. 😀

 

[Quixfire]

The ignition flame front will travel slower with the water injection and as such timing can be advance for even more power gains.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was taught that the speed in which fuel (gasoline) burns is constant. The only real variable is when the burn starts, not the rate at which it burns.

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Quixfire

The ignition flame front will travel slower with the water injection and as such timing can be advance for even more power gains.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was taught that the speed in which fuel (gasoline) burns is constant. The only real variable is when the burn starts, not the rate at which it burns.

I'm no expert, but it stands to reason that the speed it burns can be affected by the oxygen content, initial temperature, and a host of other things.

 

Combustion events are governed by many factors including but not limited to the following ;

Combustion chamber shape

Cylinder head material (Aluminum/cast iron)

Compression ratio

Air/Fuel ratio

Temperature

 

[FenrisUlf]

Originally posted by: Roger
Let me explain what's wrong with this staement, yes a cooler charge of air is denser, therefor more air will enter the engine, but, this applies to the atmosphere that the vehicle is driven in, injecting water into the intake track will not condense the the air enough for a larger air charge to enter the combustion chamber.
You must realize that the air entering the carburetor or throttle body is still warm, therefor the air charge is not as dense, by the time the air charge has a chance to cool down and become denser, the intake has already opened and closed and that cylinder has fired already.
The only real effective way to cool the intake charge is to spray a mist of water in a sealed room surrounding the vehicle.

Absoloutely right Roger. There might be some cooling effect, but any humidity in the air actually REDUCES air density. Sounds crazy since common sense would say that water is heavier than air, but it's true. Liquid water is denser than air, but humidity is gaseous water. When gaseous, water has the same pressure as the rest of the air and expands evenly. Water is H2O, atomic weight 10. Gaseous Nitrogen (N2), the most common element in the atmosphere, has an atomic weight of 14. Therefore, when a water molecule replaces a nitrogen molecule, you get a net reduction in density.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: BooneRebel

Originally posted by: Quixfire

The ignition flame front will travel slower with the water injection and as such timing can be advance for even more power gains.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was taught that the speed in which fuel (gasoline) burns is constant. The only real variable is when the burn starts, not the rate at which it burns.

I'm no expert, but it stands to reason that the speed it burns can be affected by the oxygen content, initial temperature, and a host of other things.

yes, including octane / carbon chain length.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: Roger
Combustion events are governed by many factors including but not limited to the following ;

Combustion chamber shape

Cylinder head material (Aluminum/cast iron)

Compression ratio

Air/Fuel ratio

Temperature

How does the cylinder head material affect combustion? I'm not doubting you, I just want to know how/why

 

How does the cylinder head material affect combustion? I'm not doubting you, I just want to know how/why

Cast iron has a slower heat transfer rate than aluminum, therefor the combustion chamber sees higher temperatures, this has the effect of faster flame fronts than a similarly equipped aluminum head engine.
This is precisely why almost every automobile manufacturer has switched to aluminum heads, it reduces preignition, slows down the flame front and more precisely controls combustion temperatures.

 

[Lvis]

This was an often covered topic in the hot rodding mags 20+ years ago. The primary reason for doing it was to reduce detonation. The gas back then was lower octane than you can get now, so it made a bit of sense for high output engines. It was also considered a great way to ruin your engine. Steam cleaning your cylinders isn't going to make it last longer. 😛

 

[geno]

The only way I could see water injection raising HP is in a forced induction setup (lets you put more boost in the motor)