Washington asks, what to do about Israel

[Red Dawn]

Hamas had no intention of clamping down on the "nutcases" previously - what incentive do they have now?

Well you can't expect Hamas to clamp down on itself. I think peace there is a lost cause. Both sides will keep slaughtering each other and cheering it on until the end of time.

 

[kylebisme]

Not if we stop backing one side against the other, and start actually acting as a neutral party to impose a two-state solution on the basis of international law.

 

[Lemon law]

Not to confine my criticism to only the EagleKeeper post which shows he is clearly pro Israeli biased, but maybe it also everyone else seems show the biases of their own.

But maybe its time to realize two things about this whole Gaza flotilla crisis that has burst like an exploding Star, and is now visible even in daylight.

1. Its is not going to be solved anytime soon, this is just a start and the beginning. Its taken 62 years to get into the mess, but anyone with a brain in the mid-east long ago realized the present status quo, was a dead end bridge to nowhere. But yet the world remained blind to the plight of the Palestinian people and took some comfort in a stable Israel as a lone island of something we hoped for even if Israel clearly didn't deliver on those vague hopes for a better mid-east.

2. Its a somewhat common theme from posters, if only the bad guys on the other side would take a few painless steps, we would all be on a short road to an instant peaceful
solution in the mid-east. And I somewhat submit, there will be no gain without a lot of pain on all sides. Or else it defaults to, why change the rotten status quo? Which through history seldom changes until the side benefiting most from the Status quo feels the pain of international or domestic pressure and voluntarily changes as an adaptive response to make the pain go away.

Since this is mainly a USA forum, maybe we should look at it from the USA which has taken side of enabler of Israel since at least 1967 if not well before.

Up until 1992 or so, being pro-Israeli was almost all good for the USA, it allowed the US to be seen as the nation that could broker that lasting mid-east peace by the Arabs, and it allowed the USA to have a positive role and interests in what amounted to the world center for black gold wealth that is the power source for the planet.

Sadly since then, the USA has delivered nothing in terms of any progress in the mid-east, foolishly allowed itself to get bogged down in two incompetently run military occupation quagmires, is still in a ill defined containment snit against Iran, and now with this present Gaza crisis, is almost being forced to choose among Turkey or Israel. While many other European allies are almost demanding the USA at least take the step of ending the Israeli blockade of Gaza yesterday if not earlier.

So yes, the USA is already feeling the pain, but how much more must the USA lose before they are finally goaded into action. I suggest the next nation that the USA may lose is Egypt, the rule of Mubarak, just because of his age, is near ending, and he is going to be hard pressed to resist Arab and Turkish pressures to stay bribed by the USA
regarding any pro-Israeli policies. And if change starts sweeping the mid-east, its hard to envision the house of Faud standing as the same exact bull-work prostatus quo in Saudi Arabia. If nothing else, they may decide their future lies in trading their oil with India and China. As for Turkey, it looks they have already decided they want to be a mid-east players and power brokers, and when Hillary Clinton contemptuously dismissed their diplomatic efforts with Iran, that is a snap decision Hillary and the USA may live to regret.

So at least in terms of the USA, as this Gaza blockade crisis keeps building, it can be a opportunity for the USA to seize the moment, or a great danger for the USA in losing all control and prestige in the mid-east.

But if Obama, like Nero thinks he can just fiddle while everything burns up, I fear he will be badly mistaken and all of us in the US will pay the price.

There are, have been, and always will be moments when the present Status quo dies of old age, and the Gaza flotilla is one of those moment. Those that seize the moment can win with little pain, those that do not, will suffer and suffer.

We can do a similar analysis for the other sides, but, IMHO, Israel will be badly mistaken of they think they can enforce the present status quo. And are are now better off figuring out how to cut their losses before they lose all international support.

But I have written enough for now, but accept it, there will be no gain before feeling the pain.

 

[Noobtastic]

staying out of israel/palestine is #1 and reflects the majority sentiment of the american people.

we have no reason to get involved or meddle in israel's eternal affairs just because the muslim states are begging us to do what they have been doing for 6 decades.

unless americans want to take control of israel's security, we don't have a right to tell them what to do in this situation.

if terrorists were smuggling weapons to islamist enemies on our borders, and israel said it was going to try and stop our counter-terrorist strategies...what would happen?

there is nothing outrageous about israel's policies and they in fact compare rather favorably to ours.

if obama wants to start putting the pressure on israel, he should start applying the same methodology on our military and security policies overseas.

or else we're just a bunch of hypocrites, like the muslim world.

 

[SamurAchzar]

LL, the false "peace process" has been going on into the 2000's, the peak of the Oslo process was at 1994. Your timeline is completely off. Clinton's years were the best ever in terms of mediating between Israel and the Arabs.

Maybe things would have been different if not for 9/11.

Egypt is clearly anti-Israeli, and US can't do anything about that. It's pure old-fashioned colonialism to think US can do something to make Egyptians like Israel any more, despite the peace agreement. I honestly think the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt is going, in 20 years, will seem like one of the worst strategic moves Israel ever did: giving up land bigger than its size (and nearly uninhabited one at that!), while keeping the Gaza strip and worst of all, having US arm Egypt to the teeth instead of letting their ancient USSR era weapons decay. Egypt is just as hostile as its been before, and once Mubarak falls, and with Muslim Brotherhood in power (a movement that predates Israel by decades) things might get ugly very quick.

I think that dubious peace agreement was done more for the US (breaking the Soviet influence) than for Israel, really.

 

[Noobtastic]

I think that dubious peace agreement was done more for the US (breaking the Soviet influence) than for Israel, really.

soviet influence at the time was already in a downward spiral. israel was in a perfect position to invade egypt, as it almost did in 1967, and considered against in 73.

USA was concerned most about offending the arab states and their oil allies. more humiliating defeats could translate into additional oil embargos.

the peace agreements meant the arab states could still fight israel through the PLO, yet be immune from attack by israel.

so while saudi arabia and iran have ties to hamas, israel can't go after iran and saudi arabia, but gaza and the west bank - even though those are proxy states.

it also gave more control over israel as US wanted to keep oil stable. if a secure but quiet israel kept oil going, then so be it.

this is why the US has allowed the UN and muslim states to sandbag the israel all the time, and will go so far as to place weapons embargos.

we did nothing when saudi arabia killed 8,000 in 2009. europe said nothing.

but 13 "activists" attacking israel soldiers boarding a ship peacefully getting shot up makes the whole world and UN jizz in their pants.

talk about warped morality.

 

[flavio]

After the blockade is removed what should be the proper response to missiles launched at Israel from Gaza??

After the blockade is removed what is the proper response to Israelis shooting Palestinians?

 

[flavio]

end the blockade.

if/when rockets start coming out of Gaza again, turn it into a parking lot.

If/when Israelis shoot Palestinians turn israel into a parking lot.

 

[flavio]

How about demanding the release of Gilad Shalit, the main reason for the blockade? Then it can end.
Not a chance eh.

Israel can release the thousands of Palestinians it has kidnapped too.

 

[flavio]

The Liberals want Israel to bend over backwards; ignoring the Palestinian history toward Israel.

The conservatives want Palestine to bend over backwards, ignoring the Israelis history towards Palestine.

 

[Noobtastic]

Israel can release the thousands of Palestinians it has kidnapped too.

are you dense? israel has released more convicted terrorists than any nation on the planet. we house 100,000+ "enemy combatants" in prisons in afghanistan and iraq. in israel, murderers get released all the time. in fact one of the many reasons the palestinians kidnap israeli soldiers is to earn the release of hamas/fatah operatives. the arab states are smart in enacting the death penalty. jordan executed thousands of palestinians, so did lebanon and egypt killed 3,500+ muslim brotherhood during the 90s.

If/when Israelis shoot Palestinians turn israel into a parking lot.

and your genocidal rhetoric finally comes to full circle. thanks for playing mohamed.

 

[flavio]

are you dense? israel has released more convicted terrorists than any nation on the planet.

and your genocidal rhetoric finally comes to full circle. thanks for playing mohamed.

So you're saying loki was using genocidal rhetoric?

"if/when rockets start coming out of Gaza again, turn it into a parking lot."

 

[SamurAchzar]

Israel can release the thousands of Palestinians it has kidnapped too.

Yea, and US will released the kidnapped prisoners it holds in Supermax prisons. Are you trolling or just genuinely stupid?

 

[flavio]

Yea, and US will released the kidnapped prisoners it holds in Supermax prisons. Are you trolling or just genuinely stupid?

So you're saying all the thousands of people Israel is holding have been convicted of Supermax crimes. Are you trolling or just stupid?

 

[SamurAchzar]

So you're saying all the thousands of people Israel is holding have been convicted of Supermax crimes. Are you trolling or just stupid?

The prisoners demanded by Hamas for Shalit's release would easily pack several sections of a Supermax. Not only that, but Hamas wants Israel to release Israeli Arabs convicted of terrorism too. Get it? A recognized terrorist organization demands that a country releases its own citizens in exchange for one of their soldiers. Sounds like FARC (where's their flotilla?). Much better to deprive them of food IMHO

 

[theeedude]

Washington should be asking, "what to do about America" and let Israel itself deal with the problems it creates for itself.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I'm was referring to third party intervention, as I can't rightly expect Palestinians to clap down on their nutcases as long as we continue backing Israel's nutcases against them, and even after that I suspect both sides could use help keeping the situation under control.

Unless you declare a 5 miles swath of the Gaza border a no mans land and park UN/peacekeeping troops in there, any nutcases within Gaza will still be able to cause trouble.

There are very few cases of Israeli settlers launching rockets into Gaza. That headache of shooting Palestinians exists in the West Bank

And you need peacekeepers that will not be patsies

 

[SamurAchzar]

Unless you declare a 5 miles swath of the Gaza border a no mans land and park UN/peacekeeping troops in there, any nutcases within Gaza will still be able to cause trouble.

There are very few cases of Israeli settlers launching rockets into Gaza. That headache of shooting Palestinians exists in the West Bank

And you need peacekeepers that will not be patsies

If the keepers will be anything like the UN keepers in Lebanon, better let them stay in Sweden. What a disgrace.
And even if they ARE effective, how can they stop Hamas from launching 50 mile Iranian rockets from the middle of the Gaza strip, without becoming a target themselves?

 

[flavio]

The prisoners demanded by Hamas for Shalit's release would easily pack several sections of a Supermax.

My question was whether you were saying all the thousands of people Israel is holding have been convicted of Supermax crimes?

 

[Lemon law]

Unless you declare a 5 miles swath of the Gaza border a no mans land and park UN/peacekeeping troops in there, any nutcases within Gaza will still be able to cause trouble.

There are very few cases of Israeli settlers launching rockets into Gaza. That headache of shooting Palestinians exists in the West Bank

And you need peacekeepers that will not be patsies

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No EagleKeeper you are just, IMHO, a proIsraeli fan clubber fool blind to what will destroy what you advocate.

And are clueless to the dimensions of recent events. Israel is now at war with the conscience of the larger world. And anyone who understands history understands its the artists and intellectuals movement is far ahead of the larger world. Right now, this is not a shooting war, but it is still a war. An international artist movement that formerly supported Israel is quite rationally now with drawing its support of Israel. The tide turned and you did not notice.

And as this thread shows, in any war, the first causality is always the truth. As we all passionately spin recent events for our own gain. While the other side chants lalala, our facts rule. Get your popcorn, get your popcorn, now pick which side of lalala you will be on. As we all prove the side that pisses higher and faster will get now where faster than the other side who will also get no where either.

And now I submit that in any war, the more important second causality is the conventional wisdom status quo. Because Israel has long ago lost the moral high ground and is now insisting on occupying its strong military right of conquest to occupy only the moral low ground. A position of strength that no nation on earth has ever been able to maintain.

One side has noble peace prize winners and international luminaries, and all Israel has is military hegemony in spades. If you think about it, its really no contest, even though the dumb and strong just lose slower.

It does not have to come to that Israeli loss, but as long as Israelis are led by Bozo Netanyuhu thinking, they are on a a road to losing.

 

[SamurAchzar]

My question was whether you were saying all the thousands of people Israel is holding have been convicted of Supermax crimes?

No, but Hamas didn't demand everyone, just the bad ones (multiple life sentences). And those are certainly Supermax-worthy.

 

[pcgeek11]

If the world cut off all military aid to both countries they would continue to beat each other with rocks and dirt.

The point being they are both determined and set in their beliefs ( just as in these many posts about the subject ) and neither side is willing to give 1mm. Their conflict will continue until someone decides to pull the ultimate plug and end it all for good.

As far as I'm concerned they could all blow themselves to hell and the world would be a better place for it.

Arabs, Jews, Radical Muslims, Taliban. The whole middle east is the most fvcked up place on earth besides Africa/Somolia where they just chop each other up with large knives etc... They could blow them up too. Win Win!

 

[Tsavo]

We should do what Bush 43 did and invade Iraq.

 

[flavio]

No, but Hamas didn't demand everyone, just the bad ones (multiple life sentences). And those are certainly Supermax-worthy.

Point being Israel cannot rationally complain about one soldier being held when they hold so many.

 

[SamurAchzar]

One side has noble peace prize winners and international luminaries

Doesn't work all too well against Glocks.

Anyway, Israel have 9 nobel prize winners of its own, so I can't really understand your point.