Washington asks, what to do about Israel

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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I hope this will not be seen as jet another Israel thread, but this link, is a pretty good and perhaps non biased article from the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/weekinreview/06cooper.html?pagewanted=2&ref=global-home

Yes I know, I, as an OP am supposed to provide commentary, but given my prior stances, I wonder if that will be anything but waving red flags against all the bulls in the other camp. ]

But still as someone who has always supported the Israeli right to exist while saying it can't be so unconditional to extend to Israel violating Palestinian rights, I can at least say my link shows some insights into the political dilemma Obama is now facing.

And the other comment I have, is that I hope Obama in steering that middle course, can achieve what Israel and the Palestinians really need, namely a just mid-east peace.

Advocating a total win by one side or the other, cannot work, nor can it be workable.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
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My vote is to support them in a large-scale effort to escort every last Palestinian across the Syrian border.

No?

Oh well... more neverending war then...

/shrug
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Cut off all military aid, enforce settlement freeze, force them to remove illegal blockade.

What exactly is the blockade of Gaza?
Posted By Yousef Munayyer Thursday, June 3, 2010 - 10:44 AM Share

In recent days, coverage of the attack on the aid flotilla headed to the Gaza Strip has focused on the lack of availability of certain humanitarian goods. This fact sheet is a reference tool based on data collected by international aid agencies and human rights groups on the impact of the siege on the population of Gaza.

Electricity: The siege has led to a significant lack of power in the Gaza Strip. In 2006, Israel carried out an attack on Gaza's only power plant and never permitted the rebuilding to its pre-attack capacity (down to producing 80 megawatts maximum from 140 megawatts). According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), the daily electricity deficit has increased since January of 2010 with the plant only able to operate one turbine producing only 30 megawatts compared to its previous average of 60-65 megawatts in 2009. The majority of houses have power cuts at least eight hours per day. Some have no electricity for long as 12 hours a day. The lack of electricity has led to reliance on generators, many of which have exploded from overwork, killing and maiming civilians. Oxfam reported that "[in 2009], a total of 75 Palestinians died from carbon monoxide gas poisoning or fires from generators, and 15 died and 27 people were injured in the first two months of this year."

Water: Israel has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system. Amnesty International reports that 90-95 percent of the drinking water in Gaza is contaminated and unfit for consumption. The United Nations even found that bottled water in Gaza contained contaminants, likely due to the plastic bottles recycled in dysfunctional factories. The lack of sufficient power for desalination and sewage facilities results in significant amounts of sewage seeping into Gaza's costal aquifer--the main source of water for the people of Gaza.

Industry: Prior to the siege, the industrial sector employed 20 percent of Gaza's labor force. One year after the siege began, the Palestinian Federation of Industries reported that "61% of the factories have completely closed down. 1% was forced to change their scope of work in order to meet their living expenses, 38% were partially closed (sometimes means they operate with less than 15% capacity)". A World Health Organization report from this year states: "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. Almost all (98%) industrial operations have been shut down. The construction sector, which before September 2000 provided 15% of all jobs, has effectively halted. Only 258 industrial establishments in Gaza were operational in 2009 compared with over 2400 in 2006. As a result, unemployment rates have soared to 42% (up from 32% before the blockade)."

Health: Gaza's health sector, dramatically overworked, was also significantly damaged by Operation Cast Lead. According to UN OCHA, infrastructure for 15 of 27 of Gaza's hospitals, 43 of 110 of its primary care facilities, and 29 of its 148 ambulances were damaged or destroyed during the war. Without rebuilding materials like cement and glass due to Israeli restrictions, the vast majority of the destroyed health infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Many medical procedures for advanced illnesses are not available in Gaza. 1103 individuals applied for permits to exit the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing for medical treatment in 2009. 21 percent of these permits were denied or delayed resulting in missed hospital appointments, and several have died waiting to leave Gaza for treatment.

Food: A 2010 World Health Organization report stated that "chronic malnutrition in the Gaza Strip has risen over the past few years and has now reached 10.2%. Micronutrient deficiencies among children and women have reached levels that are of concern." According to UN OCHA: "Over 60 percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and wellbeing of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation." 72 percent of Gaza's fish profit comes from beyond the three nautical mile mark, but further restrictions by Israel's naval blockade prevents Gazans from fishing beyond that mark. Between 2008 and 2009 the fishing catch was down 47 percent.

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/03/what_exactly_is_the_blockade_of_gaza
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
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end the blockade.

if/when rockets start coming out of Gaza again, turn it into a parking lot.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Cut off all military aid, enforce settlement freeze, force them to remove illegal blockade.
After the blockade is removed what should be the proper response to missiles launched at Israel from Gaza??
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
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How about staying out of the Israel / Palestinian conflict and let them sort it out for themselves?

Note, by staying out I do not mean that we should stop selling supplies to non-terrorist groups. But, giving away handouts to either side and/or trying to tell them what to do should not be our job.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Stop giving Israel money, stop giving Israel's enemies money, and leave the situation alone. Completely remove ourselves as a variable in the equation that is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. We have enough problems at home.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
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1. Create a palestinian state recognized by everyone, with precise borders. They can't be changed and this will have to be enforced by the israelis too (no colonialist assholes around). If a currently disputed zone has lots of palestinians living in it, just leave it to them, israel is big enough to survive) (if you want to split jerusalem in half, do it).

2. End the blockade, if the youth has no future islamic extremism will thrive.

3. Have an international force (observers and policemen) integrated in the palestinian state to make sure that they enforce the law correctly and no one expect the regular army has got weapons (except the legal ones, like pistols, hunting rifles and historic weapons).

This requires collaboration and acceptance of the new order.

The alternative would be a federal state where the central government is located in jerusalem, which is a federal territory (in total it would be 3 states, 1 palestinian, 1 jew, 1 mixed city), and the central government doesn't have much power (school, police, social rules etc. is left to the states), but that's not possible after so many years of war. They hate each other too much.
And it might end up a bit like belgium, in bruxelles the number of french speaking people is increasing, and the other guys don't like it. They objective is to make bruxelles a majority french city and then split belgium in half, with french taking the richest city with them.
 
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nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
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who is in enough of an authority position to broker a deal with Israel for a Palestinian state while also clamping down on the "death to Israel at any cost" faction?
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
1,369
1
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How about demanding the release of Gilad Shalit, the main reason for the blockade? Then it can end.
Not a chance eh.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
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How about demanding the release of Gilad Shalit, the main reason for the blockade? Then it can end.
Not a chance eh.

Heh. That's an *excuse*, not a *reason*. It's plausible only in the minds of Israel's fanbois...

If he were released today, the Israelis would have a new excuse tomorrow. Hell, I'm sure they already know what it'll be...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,607
9,884
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Heh. That's an *excuse*, not a *reason*. It's plausible only in the minds of Israel's fanbois...

If he were released today, the Israelis would have a new excuse tomorrow. Hell, I'm sure they already know what it'll be...

I thought Libs were about winning hearts and minds? This post of yours seems quite contrary to such an effort. For you see, when reasons for the blockade are removed then public opinion sways away from it.

I would even be in favor of ending it then, but you don't want any of that for some reason.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
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What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Israel is surrounded by peoples that want them DEAD. Thats one problem with the bias thats going on . The other problem is the times. When times turn hard its always a scapegoat that is sacrificed. The Jews problem is further exaggerated by the fact that the worlds exchequer are the rothschilds . These are not men of God or are they for Israel. Even tho it was the rothschilds that secured the rights for the state of Israel with Britian durring WWI . It was not for The people of Israel but for prophecy this was accomplished. Israel is being used as a pawn in this game of WAR. Do not go after the Israelie pawn it is not a pawn as its being played on the board . The Knight protects the pawn queen any move to take that piece from the board results in The loss of your King and the end game.
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
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Electricity: The siege has led to a significant lack of power in the Gaza Strip. In 2006, Israel carried out an attack on Gaza's only power plant and never permitted the rebuilding to its pre-attack capacity (down to producing 80 megawatts maximum from 140 megawatts). According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), the daily electricity deficit has increased since January of 2010 with the plant only able to operate one turbine producing only 30 megawatts compared to its previous average of 60-65 megawatts in 2009. The majority of houses have power cuts at least eight hours per day. Some have no electricity for long as 12 hours a day. The lack of electricity has led to reliance on generators, many of which have exploded from overwork, killing and maiming civilians. Oxfam reported that "[in 2009], a total of 75 Palestinians died from carbon monoxide gas poisoning or fires from generators, and 15 died and 27 people were injured in the first two months of this year."
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If anyone here believes the part about The generators blowing up and killing and maiming all these people are retards . The same applies to the fires and Carbon monoxide poisoning. The maiming part is complete BS. The fires and poisoning are user not doing things correctly. To even list this as a problem that israel is responsiable for is about as bigoted as it gets . Cry me a river . Wait don't do that some retard will drown in the river of tears and Israel be blamed for that also.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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How about demanding the release of Gilad Shalit, the main reason for the blockade? Then it can end.
Not a chance eh.

Heh. That's an *excuse*, not a *reason*. It's plausible only in the minds of Israel's fanbois...

If he were released today, the Israelis would have a new excuse tomorrow. Hell, I'm sure they already know what it'll be...

When did the blockade go into place. Immediately after the kidnapping of Shalit! Why - because Israel does not wnat him taken out of the country.

And for Hamas, it encourages the blockade which is a focal point for activists vs what Hamaas is doing to Gaza.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
I thought Libs were about winning hearts and minds? This post of yours seems quite contrary to such an effort. For you see, when reasons for the blockade are removed then public opinion sways away from it.

I would even be in favor of ending it then, but you don't want any of that for some reason.

I'm entirely in favor of the release of Ghilad Shalit. OTOH, it seems obvious that the gesture won't benefit Gazans in the slightest. Whatever excuse the Israelis choose to employ thereafter, it'll be accepted by enough of the US population for them to maintain our support, in all likelihood. Witness some of the replies in this thread and the general tone of past threads...

The faithful will not be dissuaded by any means, least of all rational thought.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
The Liberals want Israel to bend over backwards; ignoring the Palestinian history toward Israel.

The Conservatives want the Palestinians to demonstrate that they want peace and to work with Israel; ignoring that the Palestinians are puppets of their sponsors.

The world is afraid of triggering Muslim unrest (example: UK w/ respect to Muslim imams) and an oil backlash (example: US w/ respect to Saudi after 9/11) - therefore anything that they want to do that may be perceived as a reasonable solution will not satisfy the Muslims and their backers.

Israel does not trust Hamas/Hezbollah and their Muslim sponsors to be able to implement any type of agreement. Lip service of the past 60+ years has reinforced that belief and with the backing of the UN also.

Hamas/Hezbollah does not want an agreement with Israel - that would either weaken their position or generate a cutoff in assistance from their sponsors.

The money & power trails prevent any type of reasonable settlement unless leadership is willing to go against political/public opinion.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
who is in enough of an authority position to broker a deal with Israel for a Palestinian state while also clamping down on the "death to Israel at any cost" faction?
Claiming down on those nutcases should be a cakewalk compared to claiming down on the "death to Palestine" faction, considering the fact that the latter are far better armed.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Hamas had no intention of clamping down on the "nutcases" previously - what incentive do they have now?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
I'm was referring to third party intervention, as I can't rightly expect Palestinians to clap down on their nutcases as long as we continue backing Israel's nutcases against them, and even after that I suspect both sides could use help keeping the situation under control.