was this shooting justified?

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shooting justified?

  • yes

  • no


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Sep 7, 2009
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The old man went too far but that's what can happen when you break into someone's home.

Look at the picture of the house. It's not like this is some "rich guy" or whatever... You break into a house like that, and don't be surprised to find some crazy old man.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
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I feel sorry for the kids and their families, but they made the decision to break into this guy's house. It doesn't sound like it was their first time in there either.

As for the guy? He seems a bit off. Executing them when they seem to be pretty clearly neutralized as threats? Claiming she laughed at him? I have a very hard time to believe after she'd already taken a shot, and seen that her friend/cousin whatever, was also shot... or dead at that point, the idea that she'd laugh? In all that pain and fear? Only if she was very high on something. Which maybe she was... I don't know.

It's a tragic story and a messed up situation. I think he should have let them live after they were neutralized, but perhaps they still posed a threat *shrug*

Tragic and strange as it may be, I don't think it makes sense to charge someone with "murder" for killing home invaders in their home. Unless he straight up gassed them to sleep, then they woke up hours later tied up in some torture chamber in his basement... okay then it'd be murder. But he shot them, with a legally owned firearm, in his residence, and it all took place within what, a couple minutes or less? I don't think he should face criminal charges. They were the criminals, not him.

I do feel that it sounds like he took too much pleasure in it, displayed insufficient mercy, and admitted too much. But I don't think that equals "he is TEH MURDERER!"

I read the second linked article just now and yea, I think the guy sounds like an odd duck.

But think about it this way... at the end of the day, they were in his HOUSE, he was ALONE. They CREATED THE SITUATION. They were very likely drugged up... who's to say if he hadn't had a gun, the two wouldn't have overpowered him and killed him to prevent him reporting their burglary?

It was a situation not of his creation. If someone goes out and kills people for no reason, that's a murder. That's someone who needs to go to jail. If someone defends their life and property, but does so in a way that seems less than ideal, that was maybe more brutal than it needed to be... is that really a murder?

Is it really right for this man to spend the rest of his years in prison because he is odd, and handled a situation he didn't create poorly? How many of us, or how many on that jury, will ever or have ever experienced a situation where we are alone in our home, someone or multiple someones breaks in, and we're cornered in the basement with no exit vector... and then they start descending the stairs toward us? At the time he first shot the male kid, he probably had no idea the age of this person, whether they had a gun drawn (sounds like he could only see the lower part of his body) etc... he may have been terrified.

Imagine for a moment it's a 64 year old woman, yes the execution aspect was fucked up. But again, should he really spend the rest of his life in prison because he handled a situation someone else created, where they broke into HIS HOME and threatened HIS LIFE (as far as he knew) poorly? How many of us would be cool and collected enough, while alone, if multiple parties broke into our home and cornered us, to do everything exactly right? I know I'm not the type of person who'd execute someone who was helpless... but some people are heartless, cold people. That's not illegal. It's only illegal if you convey your heartless coldness into going out and murdering people. He didn't do that. They had the bad luck to break into a house owned by a heartless, cold, weird man. Again, being heartless, cold, and weird is not illegal. They shouldn't have broken in.
 
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BergeLSU

Senior member
Apr 6, 2011
475
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Imagine for a moment it's a 64 year old woman, yes the execution aspect was fucked up. But again, should he really spend the rest of his life in prison because he handled a situation someone else created, where they broke into HIS HOME and threatened HIS LIFE (as far as he knew) poorly? How many of us would be cool and collected enough, while alone, if multiple parties broke into our home and cornered us, to do everything exactly right? I know I'm not the type of person who'd execute someone who was helpless... but some people are heartless, cold people. That's not illegal. It's only illegal if you convey your heartless coldness into going out and murdering people. He didn't do that. They had the bad luck to break into a house owned by a heartless, cold, weird man. Again, being heartless, cold, and weird is not illegal. They shouldn't have broken in.

Execution is murder. Period. At the point where you can execute someone, they are helpless and pose no threat to you.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Execution is murder. Period. At the point where you can execute someone, they are helpless and pose no threat to you.

When in your home they don't have to pose a threat and you can legally shoot them in the back when they are on the ground in most states. Them being in the home unlawfully is automatically considered a threat to your life.

This guys biggest problem was not notifying the police and trying to cover up (along with blabbing about it). Otherwise he'd be fine from a law perspective.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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A few things don't seem to add up.
If the guy is making up the story about how events unfolded, it has to be the worst concocted cover-up ever.

The point of a cover-up is to prevent prison time. His account of how things happened is clearly doing the opposite of that.
 

rasczak

Lifer
Jan 29, 2005
10,437
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When in your home they don't have to pose a threat and you can legally shoot them in the back when they are on the ground in most states. Them being in the home unlawfully is automatically considered a threat to your life.

This guys biggest problem was not notifying the police and trying to cover up (along with blabbing about it). Otherwise he'd be fine from a law perspective.

really? after the initial disabling shot he still would be fine? i doubt that.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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really? after the initial disabling shot he still would be fine? i doubt that.

Yes, although it makes it more difficult. The strongest part of castle doctrine is the legal presumption of threat to your life if the person is in your home illegally or attempting to enter illegally.

From a law perspective, this means you are OK to shoot no matter what once they cross the threshold. You are also able to shoot if they are ATTEMPTING to enter illegally, they don't actually have to be across the threshold but it sure does help you if they are. That's why there's the old saying "if you're going to shoot them, drag the body across the threshold and into your house".
 

BlitzPuppet

Platinum Member
Feb 4, 2012
2,460
7
81
I bet THEY won't ever break into another house.

Also:
'I understand they came there to rob them, or whatever, but shoot them in the shoulder and call the cops.'
If you're going to shoot someone who broke into your own house; never shoot to wound, shoot to kill.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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Really can't answer the poll that simply... initial shots absolutely justified. Execution is definitely not justified. Sympathy for criminal idiots not found either.

A million x this. Self defense turned into sadistic murder. Lock him up.
 

ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
6
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Ultimately whatever defensive weapon you have on hand is better than nothing, but there are a dozen different options better than .22LR. It lacks in every major category for a defensive round; penetration, expansion, wound channel size/shape/depth.

When he shot the girl multiple times with his .22LR revolver in the chest, I'm betting all it did was punch some small holes through her lung tissue, causing her to drown in her own blood. That's why she was gasping for air minutes later, and also why he put another round in her skull to put her down. .22LR is inhumane, and clearly inadequate for the job at hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Ru7v-LEPg

A good center mass shot using his Mini-14 paired with a good defensive load would have put both intruders down right away, with softball sized exit wounds through their back.

Thanks for the clarification!
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,580
982
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Yes, although it makes it more difficult. The strongest part of castle doctrine is the legal presumption of threat to your life if the person is in your home illegally or attempting to enter illegally.

From a law perspective, this means you are OK to shoot no matter what once they cross the threshold. You are also able to shoot if they are ATTEMPTING to enter illegally, they don't actually have to be across the threshold but it sure does help you if they are. That's why there's the old saying "if you're going to shoot them, drag the body across the threshold and into your house".

:thumbsdown: That really is some of the worst advice ever.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
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I bet THEY won't ever break into another house.

Also:If you're going to shoot someone who broke into your own house; never shoot to wound, shoot to kill.

This. However if you do just wound them, and disable them from doing any harm. Do not finish them off. Self defense and defense of property and self wellness only goes so far.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
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:thumbsdown: That really is some of the worst advice ever.

Well that's because spidey is a sociopath. This shooting was not justified. What this man did was cold-blooded murder. This action is NOT protected by castle doctrine as it does not protect executing an already disabled intruder. The instant he dragged a badly wounded teen some distance before placing a gun under the chin and pulling the trigger, he far overstepped any boundaries of home defense. I personally have issue believing a word of his story and wouldn't be shocked if he's just a child murderer who is trying to use a shaky legal defense.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
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The kids should not have been breaking into the man's home, shooting them was justified. Whether he needed to shoot them multiple times is debatable, but shooting with lethal force was unquestionably justified.
 

BergeLSU

Senior member
Apr 6, 2011
475
0
76
Well that's because spidey is a sociopath. This shooting was not justified. What this man did was cold-blooded murder. This action is NOT protected by castle doctrine as it does not protect executing an already disabled intruder. The instant he dragged a badly wounded teen some distance before placing a gun under the chin and pulling the trigger, he far overstepped any boundaries of home defense. I personally have issue believing a word of his story and wouldn't be shocked if he's just a child murderer who is trying to use a shaky legal defense.


This is what concerns me. We already know the man is insane and cold-blooded. Would it be that big of a shock if we found out that he tried covering up a kidnap/murder with the break-in (knowing that his victims were already known crooks)?
 

Theb

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
3,533
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The sheriff said he only reported one previous break in. I wonder if he was growing pot. The story would make a lot more sense. Previous unreported break ins, making sure neither kid is a witness, taking a day to move everything off site before calling the police, the kids heading for the basement.
 

Jodell88

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
8,762
30
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Yes, although it makes it more difficult. The strongest part of castle doctrine is the legal presumption of threat to your life if the person is in your home illegally or attempting to enter illegally.

From a law perspective, this means you are OK to shoot no matter what once they cross the threshold. You are also able to shoot if they are ATTEMPTING to enter illegally, they don't actually have to be across the threshold but it sure does help you if they are. That's why there's the old saying "if you're going to shoot them, drag the body across the threshold and into your house".
You were defending the shop owner that executed the little boy, weren't you?
 

Theb

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
3,533
9
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You guys read the whole story? His house has been burglarized 8 times in recent times, taking very valuable items (and they were suspected in previous times). She had an addiction problem and people suspect she was after pills. It's very sad for those kids, it really is, but he had a right to defend his property. The number of shots were excessive, but if he shot them once each and they both died, they'd still be dead. Dead is dead, and it's their own fault.

And he wouldn't be facing charges, assuming he also calls the police the same day in this alternate scenario.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Well that's because spidey is a sociopath. This shooting was not justified. What this man did was cold-blooded murder. This action is NOT protected by castle doctrine as it does not protect executing an already disabled intruder. The instant he dragged a badly wounded teen some distance before placing a gun under the chin and pulling the trigger, he far overstepped any boundaries of home defense. I personally have issue believing a word of his story and wouldn't be shocked if he's just a child murderer who is trying to use a shaky legal defense.

The ONLY action he took that was illegal was moving the body and then the shot. Well that and all the cover up stuff. Everything else was covered by castle doctrine.

You are still allowed to shoot the invader when they are on the ground if they so much as make a single move toward you or reach for something. In your house unlawully means they are legally presumed to be a threat.
 
Apr 17, 2003
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In America we don't put people in jail for killing people that break into out houses. I feel bad for these kids and their families but they devalued their own lives when they decided to enter a stranger's house without permission. This is really a sad case all around, but the old man was well within his rights to not only shoot them but also to kill them. Even with them shot his safety was is serious question. What if he went to call the police and the girl got up stabbed him in the back? I'm sorry guys, I want to feel sympathy for the suspects, but he did nothing illegal.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Apr 17, 2003
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Here's what he has going for him.

It's clear two adults(teenage adults?) committed a felony by burglarizing his home with him inside.

He had the right to shoot them under the (castle doctrine?) Under this, I don't think he can be legally prosecuted for what happened, so I'm kind of confused how they are charging him with 2nd degree murder. He can be held liable in civil court however.

To every gun-owner, you have the RIGHT to defend yourself and shoot someone if it is REASONABLE that you are in jeopardy of serious physical injury or death.

You shoot until "the threat is eliminated", for gods sake, don't ever say how many rounds you used, whether or not you shot them in the head for an execution, etc. just say, "I shot until the threat was eliminated"

What the fuck was this guy thinking, telling investigators he shot them as they laid motionless on the ground, and then not even CALL the police until the next day! I can just see him sitting in his rocking chair watching the blood ooze out of their bodies, and then just smile as if he had the last laugh.


Ahhh...here's the castle doctrine info in MN. http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/141497673.html

Yeah, I'm sure it's impossible to figure out how many rounds were used...
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
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911 Operator: "Hello?"
Smith: "I just shot some thieves, please come help clean up the mess."
911 Operator: "Are you sure they are dead?"
Smith: "Hold on one second" Two gunshots. "Yeah, they are."