Was this scientist fired for finding a "4000 year-old" dinosaur fossil?

[Retro Rob]

LMAO, way to cut what i wrote up to make it say what you want it to. I am done with you welcome to ignore

Thanks!

 

[Silver Prime]

Dinosaurs only 4,000?

What was the latest dinosaurs after the 65 million opinion? Thats a tall glass to fill with water, but if there was any proof, that could be mind blowing...since the gap of thousand and million is huge, it will raise more questions as long as if his theory is supported.

 

[Brainonska511]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0065128113000020

My cursory review of the paper (and that's all I'm going to give it, since I have my own research to do), doesn't say anything about speculating the age of the dinosaur in quesiton. It reports on the finding of soft tissue, which isn't even the first time this has been reported for a fossilized specimen.

The man's claims don't hold up to what is and isn't known about dinosaurs. To make the leap from all other dinosaur fossils say 65+ million years old (as all the existing evidence points to) and then to go to the claim of only thousands, is absurd. Even his paper doesn't support him - it makes no speculation to this man's specious claims.

 

[shira]

Here is the abstract from the research paper he published on this fossil:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0065128113000020

Abstract

Soft fibrillar bone tissues were obtained from a supraorbital horn of Triceratops horridus collected at the Hell Creek Formation in Montana, USA. Soft material was present in pre and post-decalcified bone. Horn material yielded numerous small sheets of lamellar bone matrix. This matrix possessed visible microstructures consistent with lamellar bone osteocytes. Some sheets of soft tissue had multiple layers of intact tissues with osteocyte-like structures featuring filipodial-like interconnections and secondary branching. Both oblate and stellate types of osteocyte-like cells were present in sheets of soft tissues and exhibited organelle-like microstructures. SEM analysis yielded osteocyte-like cells featuring filipodial extensions of 18–20 μm in length. Filipodial extensions were delicate and showed no evidence of any permineralization or crystallization artifact and therefore were interpreted to be soft. This is the first report of sheets of soft tissues from Triceratops horn bearing layers of osteocytes, and extends the range and type of dinosaur specimens known to contain non-fossilized material in bone matrix.

I don't see any claim in this abstract that the fossil is only 4000 years old. It just summarizes that this is the first Triceratops fossil with intact soft tissue from the horn containing osteocytes. Sounds like a pretty accurate characterization of the actual fossil and hardly something anyone would get fired over.

 

[Iron Woode]

He tried, but was fired. Didn't you read the article, Einstein?

LOL

Creationism isn't science. The Triceratops' horn is 60 million years old and not 4000 years old just because he found soft tissue fossils in it. If he seriously thinks dinosaurs went extinct 4000 years ago then not only does he deserve to be fired, he deserves to have any scientific credentials stripped from him as well.

and that is why there needs to be a separation between Science and Creatism/Intelligent Design/Religious nuttery.

 

[IronWing]

Maybe we should find out why Mr. Armitage was fired before we agree or disagree with the firing. He says it was religious discrimination. The university says there was no funding for his position. He says he had a permanent position. The university says it was temporary, subject to funding. Eventually someone will probably produce a contract document laying out the terms of Mr. Armitage's employment.

Acta Histochemica where Mr. Armitage published his dinosaur findings is a legitimate, peer reviewed journal. If anyone has $36 to blow we could find out if Mr. Armitage's article includes any age analysis. Here is the article abstract and link:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0065128113000020

Also, have we determined if Retro Rob is another Incorruptible sock puppet? The (il)logic and modes of attack are the same.

Edit: I see others found the article while I was finding the article.

 

[Greenman]

And if they were looked at, found to be rubbish and he was fired?

So be it. If you're a lousy scientist you either have to work for the government or a university.

 

[Retro Rob]

LOL

Creationism isn't science. The Triceratops' horn is 60 million years old and not 4000 years old just because he found soft tissue fossils in it.

Agree on all counts. Need I remind you that I started this thread to examine the circumstances surrounding his termination, and whether or not it was just and fair, or prejudiced.

If he seriously thinks dinosaurs went extinct 4000 years ago then not only does he deserve to be fired, he deserves to have any scientific credentials stripped from him as well.

If he can "prove" it, then he'll go down in history, and if he can't then he's wrong. But science is all about questioning, so he's doing what he's supposed to as a "scientist".

and that is why there needs to be a separation between Science and Creatism/Intelligent Design/Religious nuttery.

Yes, but that doesn't mean creationists cannot be scientists. Science isn't a members-only club.

 

[Greenman]

I had always thought carbon dating solved age issues long ago.

Me too, but I don't know enough about it to be able to state that it's infallible.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The term "4,000 years" appears no where in the published article.

 

[IronWing]

Me too, but I don't know enough about it to be able to state that it's infallible.

Carbon-14 is good for dates in the few hundred years to ~50,000 year range. Other radioisotopes are used for dating older stuff.

 

[Silver Prime]

Well atleast science has better work ethics than religon, he was only fired, not set on fire.

 

[IronWing]

Agree on all counts. Need I remind you that I started this thread to examine the circumstances surrounding his termination, and whether or not it was just and fair, or prejudiced.

You knew from word one of your post that the information needed to make such a judgement is unavailable to us at this time, so why the post?

 

[Retro Rob]

You knew from word one of your post that the information needed to make such a judgement is unavailable to us at this time, so why the post?

Uhhmmm...because this is a discussion board?

Why are you even responding, then?

 

[IronWing]

Uhhmmm...because this is a discussion board?

Why are you even responding, then?

Trying to figure your goal in presenting a question for which you know no one here can provide an answer. Seems a bit trollish.

 

[Brainonska511]

Acta Histochemica where Mr. Armitage published his dinosaur findings is a legitimate, peer reviewed journal. If anyone has $36 to blow we could find out if Mr. Armitage's article includes any age analysis. Here is the article abstract and link:

I glanced through the entire paper (university connection) and as I mentioned, the paper makes no claim supporting the plaintiff's lawsuit.

Maybe we should find out why Mr. Armitage was fired before we agree or disagree with the firing. He says it was religious discrimination. The university says there was no funding for his position. He says he had a permanent position. The university says it was temporary, subject to funding. Eventually someone will probably produce a contract document laying out the terms of Mr. Armitage's employment.

A lot of university research positions are temporary. As long as there is funding and your boss wants you to stay, you generally have a job. But if the funding dries up and/or your boss doesn't want you around any more, it's usually too bad, so sad. The only (moderately) stable research jobs at an academic level are found in tenured faculty positions. And even those aren't super-stable. Many have provisions that the professor must take x% of his salary from grant money (thus, little grant money = less pay, even if tenured).

 

[Silver Prime]

So whats the periodic table inbetween 65 million years ----4,000? Just seems to far a gap, wonder what quintellionths of other living mammalian and reptilian things that went un-documented.

 

[IronWing]

A lot of university research positions are temporary. As long as there is funding and your boss wants you to stay, you generally have a job. But if the funding dries up and/or your boss doesn't want you around any more, it's usually too bad, so sad. The only (moderately) stable research jobs at an academic level are found in tenured faculty positions. And even those aren't super-stable. Many have provisions that the professor must take x% of his salary from grant money (thus, little grant money = less pay, even if tenured).

That was my experience as well. I worked for a university for a few years. When the professor who ran the program I was working on retired and no other profs had an interest in continuing the program I was gone.

 

[Retro Rob]

Trying to figure your goal in presenting a question for which you know no one here can provide an answer. Seems a bit trollish.

No, you weren't. I wasn't looking for an answer (and you knew that by the OP).

Again, starting a thread with incomplete information isn't "trollish"...you're just irritated by the possible implications of the firing of an employee because he simply challenges orthodox views.

 

[Silver Prime]

Sad we know more about the size of the universe, yet not the fucking dates of our own planets eco-system:

 

[IronWing]

No, you weren't. I wasn't looking for an answer (and you knew that by the OP).

Again, starting a thread with incomplete information isn't "trollish"...you're just irritated by the possible implications of the firing of an employee because he simply challenges orthodox views.

Again, you have offered no evidence for such a firing nor is the evidence for/against this having happened available.

It's like arguing about the color of Stewox's underwear. None of us have access so there is no basis for discussion.

 

[Retro Rob]

Again, you have offered no evidence for such a firing nor is the evidence for/against this having happened available.

Did I say I have evidence?

It's like arguing about the color of Stewox's underwear. None of us have access so there is no basis for discussion.

Well, shut the fuck up and get the fuck out.

If there's no "basis for discussion", then you're welcome to stop posting here.

 

[IronWing]

Sad we know more about the size of the universe, yet not the fucking dates of our own planets eco-system:

What are you talking about? We have overlapping radio-isotope dating techniques covering dozens to billions of years.

 

[IronWing]

Did I say I have evidence?



Well, shut the fuck up and get the fuck out.

So we're back to determining your motives in posting the OP. Seems trollish.

 

[Retro Rob]

So be it. If you're a lousy scientist you either have to work for the government or a university.

Yep.