Was it morally right to kill Usama bin Ladan?

[HAL9000]

Just read the title and nothing else, but I did want to say this:
Shut the fuck up Hal.

I've barely said anything in this thread...

 

[Squisher]

You continue to ignore the countless innocent civilians America has killed in the last 300 years... The problem with America is that it always ignores the evil it commits.

Alright I'll bite. When did America target civilians as a means of forcing its will against those of al-Qaeda.

Wasn't most of bin Laden's issues with the U.S. over aid to Israel and the remnants of U.S. troops on Arab soil that were left over from the gulf war? Oh, that sounds really evil! Surly worth the death of 3000 innocent civilians. Since bin Laden is your hero maybe you should lay out for us why they deserved to die.

You sir are a piece of human debris.

 

[zinfamous]

I didn't forget anything. Wars start from other wars. Another war laid the groundwork for that war. WW2 laid the groundwork for other wars. It is a neverending cycle, peace is never the result. Peace comes from CEASING war, not from war itself.

we learned many things after WWII.

It is too simple to say that WWI begat WWII--it is more of an issue of how the post war world handled the losers.

Germany spiraled into a depression nearly 10 times worse than what we saw in the US. the level of devastation was incalculable. One of the most powerful nations, oldest and prideful nations was reduced to a shithole equal to modern day Haiti. Perhaps even worse. The allies stifled German expansion and economic development to crippling, and embittering results.

we essentially created the environment that allowed a man like Hitler to thrive. Yes, this happened as conditions of "Peace," but it didn't necessarily have to. After WW2, we learned from this catastrophic mistake. Germany, and yes Japan, are two of the most powerful nations in the world, today. They are some of our strongest allies. There is very real peace.

it took 10 centuries of near constant war throughout Europe, but there is, in very many ways, real peace.

Can you even comprehend that in the 70 years since WW2, we have seen the longest peace between European nations in the previous 1 thousand years.

in 1 thousand years, we are currently experiencing the first "Pax-Europa."

Be assured that no one over there is interested in fighting each other. well, except for the Belgies. But they are simply crazy by principle.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I've barely said anything in this thread...

You said enough to warrant it:

I do not think it was a morally acceptable action to take.

You don't get an opinion on the issue unless you can defend it, and since you can't... (or, at least, refuse to...)

 

[zinfamous]

You continue to ignore the countless innocent civilians America has killed in the last 300 years... The problem with America is that it always ignores the evil it commits.

no one has ignored that. You seem unable to distinguish between violent military action directed against aggressive nations and violent military action directed against civilians.

in war, civilians will die, despite all attempts to avoid this. this is why war is to be avoided at all costs. It is unfortunate, though, that people truly exist in this world that want to world to continue in perpetual war.

There are completely evil asshats like al Qaeda and the Taliban, and there are also asshat war profiteers that need little convincing to jump into a fray. this is the sad, sad state of things.

 

[Malak]

Alright I'll bite. When did America target civilians as a means of forcing its will against those of al-Qaeda.

Not just AQ, not just the middle east, but in every country we have ever been in. It isn't just civilians and militants, it is HUMANS. Forcing your will on others is morally wrong. You wouldn't like it, so you can't justify it if you do it to others. Sometimes people just trying to live get killed in the process, it has happened in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY AMERICA GOT INVOLVED WITH.

You sir are a piece of human debris.

You prove my point emphatically that the issue of morals is something most people in the argument simply can't comprehend to begin with. Your arguments are filled with hypocrisy and circular logic.

 

[HAL9000]

You said enough to warrant it:

You don't get an opinion on the issue unless you can defend it, and since you can't... (or, at least, refuse to...)

Of course I can, I don't refuse to at all! Killing isn't morally acceptable in my opinion (except in very extreme circumstances), thus this killing was not morally acceptable in this circumstance.

 

[DangerAardvark]

I love that Obama ordered the killing, just for the internal conflict it creates in the pacifist-type liberals. "How do I crow about the victory for my side without celebrating an execution..."

 

[Squisher]

Not just AQ, not just the middle east, but in every country we have ever been in. It isn't just civilians and militants, it is HUMANS. Forcing your will on others is morally wrong. You wouldn't like it, so you can't justify it if you do it to others. Sometimes people just trying to live get killed in the process, it has happened in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY AMERICA GOT INVOLVED WITH.





You prove my point emphatically that the issue of morals is something most people in the argument simply can't comprehend to begin with. Your arguments are filled with hypocrisy and circular logic.

So, I ask you a direct question and you answer with this? And, I'm circular???

All war is imposing your will. Not all war is morally correct. Might doesn't always make right. However, in this case you have raised the banner of a morally corrupt individual in some sort of inditment of anything America has done wrong for the last 300 years. wtf? That's like saying I was morally correct to rape and kill your wife because you cheated on a math exam in the third grade.

Maybe this escapes you but,

bin Laden = bad enough to die
America =! bad enough to die

 

[MrDudeMan]

Of course I can, I don't refuse to at all! Killing isn't morally acceptable in my opinion (except in very extreme circumstances), thus this killing was not morally acceptable in this circumstance.

The problem with this point of view is that you are bounded by your inability to view it from another frame of reference. If your wife or kid was killed in 9/11, I think you may feel differently. It's human to feel emotions and have your perception of reality changed what the events around you. Being able to understand why another person may feel the way they do isn't something everyone can do.

 

[Malak]

All war is imposing your will. Not all war is morally correct.

Sure, but the question is whether imposing your will is always morally correct.

Might doesn't always make right. However, in this case you have raised the banner of a morally corrupt individual in some sort of inditment of anything America has done wrong for the last 300 years.

Where did I do that? I don't even know how you could possibly mistake anything I've said for anything like that. My point has always been that WAR IS BAD, KILLING IS BAD. How is that raising the banner for a morally corrupt individual?

That's like saying I was morally correct to rape and kill your wife because you cheated on a math exam in the third grade.

Pretty sure that's your argument, not mine.

Maybe this escapes you but,

bin Laden = bad enough to die
America =! bad enough to die

Last time I checked, every human on earth is bad enough to die. My argument is that it isn't your place to decide when and how.

 

[Malak]

The problem with this point of view is that you are bounded by your inability to view it from another frame of reference. If your wife or kid was killed in 9/11, I think you may feel differently. It's human to feel emotions and have your perception of reality changed what the events around you. Being able to understand why another person may feel the way they do isn't something everyone can do.

I think the problem is that those people aren't willing to see it from another viewpoint either. My dad is ex-military and even he isn't celebrating the death of Osama, and my dad was in the Iraq ordeal.

 

[BoomerD]

Kill them all.

Let God sort them out.

I think the problem is that those people aren't willing to see it from another viewpoint either. My dad is ex-military and even he isn't celebrating the death of Osama, and my dad was in the Iraq ordeal.

What the hell does Iraq have to do with Osama?

(answer...absolutely not a god-damned thing.

Thanks to your dad for his service...but don't try to link the two...that's been disproven many times.

 

[Malak]

Thanks to your dad for his service...but don't try to link the two...that's been disproven many times.

My point is that my dad has been in war, and has changed his viewpoint on killing. People in American don't generally have any understanding of war because it is very rarely in our country anymore. 9/11 isn't much compared to what other countries have faced before and since, a lot worse has happened in the middle east EVERY YEAR. The people involved in 9/11 had their world hit hard and wanted retaliation, but they generally didn't realize that 9/11 was retaliation and that the war was finally hitting home. The war started a long time ago between people you never heard of and hasn't stopped since.

 

[Paladin3]

I believe those posters are idiots. Time to bust out my favorite Heinlein quote:

"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

Cool book. I re-read it every few years.

 

[Rifter]

fuck yeah

 

[BoomerD]

My point is that my dad has been in war, and has changed his viewpoint on killing. People in American don't generally have any understanding of war because it is very rarely in our country anymore. 9/11 isn't much compared to what other countries have faced before and since, a lot worse has happened in the middle east EVERY YEAR. The people involved in 9/11 had their world hit hard and wanted retaliation, but they generally didn't realize that 9/11 was retaliation and that the war was finally hitting home. The war started a long time ago between people you never heard of and hasn't stopped since.

We haven't had "armed combat" in this country for more than 150 years...but don't think for a minute, people in America don't know war. LOTS of Americans have served in "theaters of combat" in one war or another...and have looked the elephant in the eye.
I spent 2 years in Vietnam. I've seen the horror that is war. There is no glory in war, win or lose...but I still believe in killing my enemy...and Osama Bin Forgotten WAS our enemy. Did we change anything? Did killing him make a dent in the terrorism? Will his death put an end to terrorism? Hell no to all of those...but we DID get the fucker who planned many attacks on US citizens, from the embassy bombings in the 90's, to the attack on the US Cole in Yemen in 2000, to the attacks on the WTT and Pentagon. Osama Bin Laden deserved a far more painful death than he was given.

It's true, the folks in the Middle East have been at war for thousands of years, with only a few, short periods of relative peace.
When we're finally gone...the wars there will continue.
We're just the latest "flash in the pan" of Middle Eastern War.
This will change nothing in that regard.

 

[zerocool84]

I've barely said anything in this thread...

Your version of barely saying anything is a lot to everyone else.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

My point is that my dad has been in war, and has changed his viewpoint on killing. People in American don't generally have any understanding of war because it is very rarely in our country anymore. 9/11 isn't much compared to what other countries have faced before and since, a lot worse has happened in the middle east EVERY YEAR. The people involved in 9/11 had their world hit hard and wanted retaliation, but they generally didn't realize that 9/11 was retaliation and that the war was finally hitting home. The war started a long time ago between people you never heard of and hasn't stopped since.

The universe is trying to kill you. That's how it sorts out the things to breed more things to kill each other to breed more to kill each other... Of the past 3.5 billion years YOUR DNA has been around, getting better, it has been KILLING THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING IT CAN for 3.5 billion years. I repeated 3.5 billion years in that sentence because the amount of time YOUR DNA has been around not KILLING THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING IT CAN is statistically insignificant.

However it's not because of the fact that survival of the fittest is the rule of life that is most germane to the human species killing each other, that I am not against killing under the right circumstances, and point out the above. It is rather the fact that when you have something valuable, others will desire to take it, and sometimes resort to violence. This pertains to countries as much as individuals. Not protecting yourself is insane. This is certainly parallel to the laws of nature itself; the only basic instinct shared by all living things is a desire to keep living.

In addition to this, many species of primates and higher oceanic mammals have been found to exhibit behavior previously thought solely in the domain of man. Suicide, rape, murder, and war have all been unmistakably documented. I am not saying we shouldn't try to be better than animals, but I am saying that this type of behavior appears to be hard coded within us, and is very likely a survival tool of higher social animals. Even the parts you might find most distasteful such as outright murder just for the fuck of it might serve a greater social survival purpose.

While we're on it, ALL of the social animals murder the fuck out of any one of their group they find the least bit strange or broken, from apes down to bees and ants. So when a bunch of us get together and say, 'Hey! that douchebag over there murdered my sister, and my husband, and my neighbor, and my real estate broker, and little kids in daycare, and babies, and made people jump out of buildings instead of burning alive, and he says he wants to keep doing that to us, let's murder the fuck out of him!', I think that's A O FUCKING K. You can believe your idealistic fantasies all you want, but all of the EVIDENCE points to the fact that there is never going to be a time when we or anything else alive in this wondrously beautiful and awesome god forsaken death factory is not going to be fighting to stay alive and getting better at it.

Just in case you believe in some omnipotent god, then just think to yourself that there is an inescapable conclusion; this is how god wants it. …even if you’re a peacenik rose-tinted Buddhist or Hindu! LOL

 

[foghorn67]

...Be assured that no one over there is interested in fighting each other. well, except for the Belgies. But they are simply crazy by principle.

No, I say the Dutch.


"There are two kinds of people in this world I can't stand. Those intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the Dutch."

 

[coreyb]

yeah those crazy dutch with their legal weed and prostitution. sucks over there

 

[foghorn67]

The universe is trying to kill you. That's how it sorts out the things to breed more things to kill each other to breed more to kill each other... Of the past 3.5 billion years YOUR DNA has been around, getting better, it has been KILLING THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING IT CAN for 3.5 billion years. I repeated 3.5 billion years in that sentence because the amount of time YOUR DNA has been around not KILLING THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING IT CAN is statistically insignificant.

However it's not because of the fact that survival of the fittest is the rule of life that is most germane to the human species killing each other, that I am not against killing under the right circumstances, and point out the above. It is rather the fact that when you have something valuable, others will desire to take it, and sometimes resort to violence. This pertains to countries as much as individuals. Not protecting yourself is insane. This is certainly parallel to the laws of nature itself; the only basic instinct shared by all living things is a desire to keep living.

In addition to this, many species of primates and higher oceanic mammals have been found to exhibit behavior previously thought solely in the domain of man. Suicide, rape, murder, and war have all been unmistakably documented. I am not saying we shouldn't try to be better than animals, but I am saying that this type of behavior appears to be hard coded within us, and is very likely a survival tool of higher social animals. Even the parts you might find most distasteful such as outright murder just for the fuck of it might serve a greater social survival purpose.

While we're on it, ALL of the social animals murder the fuck out of any one of their group they find the least bit strange or broken, from apes down to bees and ants. So when a bunch of us get together and say, 'Hey! that douchebag over there murdered my sister, and my husband, and my neighbor, and my real estate broker, and little kids in daycare, and babies, and made people jump out of buildings instead of burning alive, and he says he wants to keep doing that to us, let's murder the fuck out of him!', I think that's A O FUCKING K. You can believe your idealistic fantasies all you want, but all of the EVIDENCE points to the fact that there is never going to be a time when we or anything else alive in this wondrously beautiful and awesome god forsaken death factory is not going to be fighting to stay alive and getting better at it.

Just in case you believe in some omnipotent god, then just think to yourself that there is an inescapable conclusion; this is how god wants it. …even if you’re a peacenik rose-tinted Buddhist or Hindu! LOL

that is really cynical, but geesh...well written.

 

[BoomerD]

The universe is trying to kill you. That's how it sorts out the things to breed more things to kill each other to breed more to kill each other... Of the past 3.5 billion years YOUR DNA has been around, getting better, it has been KILLING THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING IT CAN for 3.5 billion years. I repeated 3.5 billion years in that sentence because the amount of time YOUR DNA has been around not KILLING THE FUCK OUT OF EVERYTHING IT CAN is statistically insignificant.

However it's not because of the fact that survival of the fittest is the rule of life that is most germane to the human species killing each other, that I am not against killing under the right circumstances, and point out the above. It is rather the fact that when you have something valuable, others will desire to take it, and sometimes resort to violence. This pertains to countries as much as individuals. Not protecting yourself is insane. This is certainly parallel to the laws of nature itself; the only basic instinct shared by all living things is a desire to keep living.

In addition to this, many species of primates and higher oceanic mammals have been found to exhibit behavior previously thought solely in the domain of man. Suicide, rape, murder, and war have all been unmistakably documented. I am not saying we shouldn't try to be better than animals, but I am saying that this type of behavior appears to be hard coded within us, and is very likely a survival tool of higher social animals. Even the parts you might find most distasteful such as outright murder just for the fuck of it might serve a greater social survival purpose.

While we're on it, ALL of the social animals murder the fuck out of any one of their group they find the least bit strange or broken, from apes down to bees and ants. So when a bunch of us get together and say, 'Hey! that douchebag over there murdered my sister, and my husband, and my neighbor, and my real estate broker, and little kids in daycare, and babies, and made people jump out of buildings instead of burning alive, and he says he wants to keep doing that to us, let's murder the fuck out of him!', I think that's A O FUCKING K. You can believe your idealistic fantasies all you want, but all of the EVIDENCE points to the fact that there is never going to be a time when we or anything else alive in this wondrously beautiful and awesome god forsaken death factory is not going to be fighting to stay alive and getting better at it.

Just in case you believe in some omnipotent god, then just think to yourself that there is an inescapable conclusion; this is how god wants it. …even if you’re a peacenik rose-tinted Buddhist or Hindu! LOL

 

[Zebo]

Some people need a killing and for a lot less too. This fucker killed 3500 ordinary Americans just going about their day working, janitors, stock brokers, firefighters, etc and have several more tens of thousands who morn their loss everyday. Not to mention he and his org has killed tens of thousands more around the globe. Fuck yeah, a long time ago too. This quetion is retarded.

 

[ahenkel]

Yes given his admitted involvement in multiple acts of war on civilian and military targets, the overwhelming evidence against him and the fact that he showed no remorse mean I have zero issue against killing him.

This coming from someone that thinks the death penalty is an antiquated punishment with too many risks to the potentially innocent.

Personally while his being assassinated is perfectly fine with me. I would have liked to see him jailed somewhere with just enough light to not be able to determine time of day and all his meals delivered automatically so he got zero human contact, and we should have provided him the best medical care as possible so he could live in that living hell for as long as possible. Then when the psychosis takes his mind and he begs for death we refuse.