Was Israel Innocent in the July 12th Hezbullah attack?

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Genx87
What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.

And Hezbollah was created to take their place. So what we're shooting for, according to you, is for a newly named group to take Hezbollah's place so that in 2030, when that group's activities are being used as the justification for another invasion and another round of disproportionate punitive punishment against the Lebanese people for the activities of that group, you (or whoever then represents your viewpoint) can say:

"What was the reason for the 2006 invasion? To drive out the Hezbollah, what happened? Hezbollah was driven out."

Does that about sum it up?

Yes, the goal is to drive Hizbollah out. The Lebonese people embrace Hizbollah, I dont have much sympathy for a people who embrace a terrorist organization.

If the Lebonese people dont like the circumstances they live in, they should turn on the people that have caused it. Those people are Hizbollah.

But Israel eventually made peace with the PLO. Does that mean that Israel will make peace with Hezbullah, only to have to make peace with another militant organization in the future? Will this cycle continue?

EDIT: That means you must not be sympathetic towards Israelis because they supported the actions of the Irgun, a terrorist organization whose head was the founding father of modern Israel.

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yes, the goal is to drive Hizbollah out. The Lebonese people embrace Hizbollah, I dont have much sympathy for a people who embrace a terrorist organization.

You mean like anyone who would embrace these zealots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Peggy_Stewart

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Genx87
What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.

And Hezbollah was created to take their place. So what we're shooting for, according to you, is for a newly named group to take Hezbollah's place so that in 2030, when that group's activities are being used as the justification for another invasion and another round of disproportionate punitive punishment against the Lebanese people for the activities of that group, you (or whoever then represents your viewpoint) can say:

"What was the reason for the 2006 invasion? To drive out the Hezbollah, what happened? Hezbollah was driven out."

Does that about sum it up?

Yes, the goal is to drive Hizbollah out. The Lebonese people embrace Hizbollah, I dont have much sympathy for a people who embrace a terrorist organization.

If the Lebonese people dont like the circumstances they live in, they should turn on the people that have caused it. Those people are Hizbollah.

But Israel eventually made peace with the PLO. Does that mean that Israel will make peace with Hezbullah, only to have to make peace with another militant organization in the future? Will this cycle continue?

EDIT: That means you must not be sympathetic towards Israelis because they supported the actions of the Irgun, a terrorist organization whose head was the founding father of modern Israel.

Lets see - whats wrong withy the above statement?
Besides everything!
If you would go back and read a little history you would find that Ben Gurion outlawed that "terrorist" organization as well another.
You can label anybody a terrorist. The sad thing is we also label people like Winston Churchill and Eisenhower as terrorists because they did what they had to do to win the war. Which was defeat the enemy regardless of civilian casualties.
I have heard it said those men who dropped the atomic bombs were terrorists and should be judged for war crimes as well.
Its real easy to use the word terrorist and twist its meaning to include anybody.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Genx87
What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.

And Hezbollah was created to take their place. So what we're shooting for, according to you, is for a newly named group to take Hezbollah's place so that in 2030, when that group's activities are being used as the justification for another invasion and another round of disproportionate punitive punishment against the Lebanese people for the activities of that group, you (or whoever then represents your viewpoint) can say:

"What was the reason for the 2006 invasion? To drive out the Hezbollah, what happened? Hezbollah was driven out."

Does that about sum it up?

Yes, the goal is to drive Hizbollah out. The Lebonese people embrace Hizbollah, I dont have much sympathy for a people who embrace a terrorist organization.

If the Lebonese people dont like the circumstances they live in, they should turn on the people that have caused it. Those people are Hizbollah.

But Israel eventually made peace with the PLO. Does that mean that Israel will make peace with Hezbullah, only to have to make peace with another militant organization in the future? Will this cycle continue?

EDIT: That means you must not be sympathetic towards Israelis because they supported the actions of the Irgun, a terrorist organization whose head was the founding father of modern Israel.

They did? When did Israel make peace with the PLO? I seem to remember lots of sporadic fighting between the two after they left Lebanon.

Lets see - whats wrong withy the above statement?
Besides everything!
If you would go back and read a little history you would find that Ben Gurion outlawed that "terrorist" organization as well another.
You can label anybody a terrorist. The sad thing is we also label people like Winston Churchill and Eisenhower as terrorists because they did what they had to do to win the war. Which was defeat the enemy regardless of civilian casualties.
I have heard it said those men who dropped the atomic bombs were terrorists and should be judged for war crimes as well.
Its real easy to use the word terrorist and twist its meaning to include anybody.

You should bold your comments everytime, it really adds a lot to your posts.

Do you think Hizbollah is a terrorist organization?

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Dari

EDIT: That means you must not be sympathetic towards Israelis because they supported the actions of the Irgun, a terrorist organization whose head was the founding father of modern Israel.

Lets see - whats wrong withy the above statement?
Besides everything!
If you would go back and read a little history you would find that Ben Gurion outlawed that "terrorist" organization as well another.
You can label anybody a terrorist. The sad thing is we also label people like Winston Churchill and Eisenhower as terrorists because they did what they had to do to win the war. Which was defeat the enemy regardless of civilian casualties.
I have heard it said those men who dropped the atomic bombs were terrorists and should be judged for war crimes as well.
Its real easy to use the word terrorist and twist its meaning to include anybody.

And in 1977, Israelis subsequently elected that terrorist organization's former leader, Menachim Begin (the one who led Irgun at the times of the attacks that led Ben Gurion to "outlaw it," as you put it), as their Prime Minister... Just as they elected Yitzhak Shamir, the founder of another terrorist group, Levi, their Prime Minister twice: in 1983 and 1986... Just as they more recently elected Ariel Sharon, who was found "personally responsible," by the Israeli government's Kahan Commission, for the massacres at Sabra and Shatila (you know... back in the 1982 war when the aforementioned objectives were so wonderfully achieved).

Is that the history we should read? Or just the parts you approve of?

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: Genx87
What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.

And Hezbollah was created to take their place. So what we're shooting for, according to you, is for a newly named group to take Hezbollah's place so that in 2030, when that group's activities are being used as the justification for another invasion and another round of disproportionate punitive punishment against the Lebanese people for the activities of that group, you (or whoever then represents your viewpoint) can say:

"What was the reason for the 2006 invasion? To drive out the Hezbollah, what happened? Hezbollah was driven out."

Does that about sum it up?

Yes, the goal is to drive Hizbollah out. The Lebonese people embrace Hizbollah, I dont have much sympathy for a people who embrace a terrorist organization.

If the Lebonese people dont like the circumstances they live in, they should turn on the people that have caused it. Those people are Hizbollah.

But Israel eventually made peace with the PLO. Does that mean that Israel will make peace with Hezbullah, only to have to make peace with another militant organization in the future? Will this cycle continue?

EDIT: That means you must not be sympathetic towards Israelis because they supported the actions of the Irgun, a terrorist organization whose head was the founding father of modern Israel.

They did? When did Israel make peace with the PLO? I seem to remember lots of sporadic fighting between the two after they left Lebanon.

Lets see - whats wrong withy the above statement?
Besides everything!
If you would go back and read a little history you would find that Ben Gurion outlawed that "terrorist" organization as well another.
You can label anybody a terrorist. The sad thing is we also label people like Winston Churchill and Eisenhower as terrorists because they did what they had to do to win the war. Which was defeat the enemy regardless of civilian casualties.
I have heard it said those men who dropped the atomic bombs were terrorists and should be judged for war crimes as well.
Its real easy to use the word terrorist and twist its meaning to include anybody.

You should bold your comments everytime, it really adds a lot to your posts.

Do you think Hizbollah is a terrorist organization?

Personmally I have never called any organization in any of my post terrorists.
Because the people on these boards have diluted its meaning.
No - I would say Hezbollah is a puppet of other middle eastern countries. I would also say these other countries are in essence sacrificing the future of the Palestinian and lebanese women and children.
In the interest cowardice.

Just my opinion. Again its real easy to call peeps terrorists.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: jrenz
Threads claiming it's all Israel's fault: 39,245

Threads offering reasonable alternatives:0

Because it was all Israel's fault and there was no need to attack.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Israel thinks that by bombing and occupying Lebanon that they will destroy an organization whose sole reason for ever existing in the first place was the last time Israel bombed and occupied Lebanon. . .

Israel is out to put an end to this once and for all. In the United States it use to be called winning a war.
Which is something that Unites states and it appears very few countries are able to stomach anymore.
There is no such thing as a fair war.
Just ask the Hezbollah leaders who decided it was appropriate for there militia to hide and cower among women and children knowing ful well the retribution of Israel would also kill civilians.
yet alot of people on these forums act all high and might as if israel should fight fair while its enemy-- you know the one that wants to push Israel into the sea makes up the rules as it goes along without any regard for Lebonese or Palestinian women and children.

So you admit that the Israelis are not fighting fairly and then calling Hezbollah unfair? Irony?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: mrCide

Why is it "arresting" when Israel takes other countries' citizens and holds them without trial and "kidnapping" when someone does it to Israel? To me they are the same.

funny how no one seems to get this. well it's either that or they make excuses, and excuses, and then some more excuses.

QFT

 

[piasabird]

So why do you think Hezbolah has been stockpiling all these rockets up along the border? Do you really think they had peaceful intentions. I dont see how this is any different than the US spying on Russia during the Cold War. We have had plenty of incidents with running into each others Nuclear Submarines.

Terrorists target and attack civilians like the Hezbolah. Isreal knew they were stockpiling weapons and knew they were going to have to deal with them, it was only a matter of time before some other thing brought the kettle to a boil so to speak.

 

[Lemon law]

You still don't get it IrateLeaf,

Oppression, lack of basic social justice, is always the precursor for terrorism. But what we are also seeing for the first time in this now 58 year old conflict, is a natiral limit being reached.
A sea change might be another way to put it----much like one might throw up a ball with velocity----but as it goes up---with both vertical and a horizontal vector---the horizontal vector is only slowed by some air resistance---while the vertical vector fights against gravity----and the Israelie side is delusional to think they will ever get strong enough to throw the ball up fast enough to reach escape velocity---so gravity will win----and this crisis shows the point in time when the Israelie bubble popped.

So lets review the Israelie stategy since 1948---when the UN gave the green light for the fledging State of Israel the right to form a government over an area with a mixed bag of Palistinians and Jewish residents-------The surrounding Arab States reacted with anger and rose up to tople this newly formed State---thanks to a hard core of established jewish terrorists---who had been using terrorists tactic against the previous British Palistinian mandate---The underdog State of Israel beat the combined might of overconfident Arab armies.
And assumed the moral high ground over the Arab states----then the State of Israel did something craven---they disenfranchised that fraction of people that were Palistinian and happened to fall within what the UN had given as the borders of Israel---and herded them into refugee camps---and stole their land and property. Not because of any due process of law---but as a collective punishment for being born Palistinian.

So the new State of Israel learned that power comes from its armies---not a bad lesson in itself---but they also learned the power of collective punishment---which is a very bad lesson for any State that wants to retain the moral high ground. Naturally, the Palistinian people were naturally the embracers of terrorism---but were inefectual---and other than the suicide bomber---they were annoyances rather than threats to Israel.------------and for years Israel would sweep through Palistinian areas administring collective punishment while the American press took the side of the Israelies.

Instead of doing anything to aid the Palistinians---the neighboring Arab States used them as a sort of negative example--if you think our dictatorship is bad just look at those poor Palistinians---works wonders to deflect hatreds and prevent progress in the Arab world also. But again the Arabs again uneering sought the moral lowground and tried again to beat the Israelie army by a sneak attack---and failed again---netting Israel much new captured land in 1967---but land that by UN mandate must be given back in totallity. But thanks to a complicit USA---Israel has retained much of that temporarily occupied land to this day.

But terrorism is the natural price Israel will always pay when its unjust----nor is the terror an Innocent Palistinian feels when a Israelie tank rolls over his house or kills all around him any different than a Palistinian suicide bomber inflicts against Israelie citizens---they are both terrorism because its random punishment---collective punishment is the other more realistic way to put it.----but one must also understand it takes real courage and hatred to blow one self up----and no guts at all to administer collective punishment from inside a tank when all the enemy has is rocks and bottles.----and the world has stood idly by as the Israelies terrorize the Palistinian people---and Israel screams like a stuck pig when just a few of its citizens actually get killed.-------slight double standard here made only possible by a biased American press. But that has been the unbrolen lesson Israel has learned----a strong army and Israels claimed right to administer collective punishment.

But now the terrorists have a new weapon---the rocket---which a gleeful Arab world will finance in great numbers with all the oil money they have suddenly thrust upon them. And a basket case of a State---Lebanon---which has a government unable to police terrorists---in no small part due to an Israelie occupation that only ended less than a decade ago.--an occupation that both created Hamas and Hezbollah.---but the important thing to realise is that for a very temporary period of time---Lebanon is about the only spot on earth where
these rockets can be launched.

So now Israel is relying on its past lessons---and administering collective punishment on a entire country---and on a very massive scale.------and collective punishemnt is not legal under international law.

1. But now---for the first time in 58 years---the American people are seeing Israel in a new light----and they decidedly don't like what they are seeing from Israel. GWB&co. may still think its business as usual---but they are losing the moral high ground to terrorists also.---and will also go as their tactics are seen as a failure. But if Israel loses the American public----its game over for Israel---period.

2. Israel for the first time is seeing that collective punishment can't just keep escalating to unlimited highs---soon the missles will come from more places---and from terrorist and not Arab governmental hands---and for the first time in 58 years---the average Israelie will no longer be safe---as you get a dose of what has been the daily lot of the Palistinians for 58 years.

3. Israel now needs to examine itself---and realise that they can no longer escalate the hatreds up with inpunity---even Sharon--was seeing that shortly before a stroke felled him.
But Israel is now at what might be called a high point----and must go down---and as some are fond of saying---empires rot from within before they are felled from without. The question is now who in Israel will now be visionary enough to realise----the old tactics of repression no longer work---and Israel must address the right to return it has long denied.

4. Only social justice is the cure for terrorism---you can delay the onset of the desease---but the cure is only found in one place.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: mrCide

Why is it "arresting" when Israel takes other countries' citizens and holds them without trial and "kidnapping" when someone does it to Israel? To me they are the same.

funny how no one seems to get this. well it's either that or they make excuses, and excuses, and then some more excuses.

Its the same reason as when a militia is on our side they are patriots and when they arent they are terrorists

 

[Pacemaker]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: mrCide

Why is it "arresting" when Israel takes other countries' citizens and holds them without trial and "kidnapping" when someone does it to Israel? To me they are the same.

funny how no one seems to get this. well it's either that or they make excuses, and excuses, and then some more excuses.

Its the same reason as when a militia is on our side they are patriots and when they arent they are terrorists

History is written by the winners. I wonder what we would think of the revolutionary war had England won.

 

[kylebisme]

This video gives a good historical perspective on terrorism:

http://www.occupation101.com/Intro_stream_hi.html