Was Israel Innocent in the July 12th Hezbullah attack?

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
People like to think that the July 12th incident was an unprovoked incident. But, like all things concerning Israel, there's a hidden truth where Israel is just as guilty as the provocateurs. God willing, I hope Israel's plan went down in flames. Perhaps they'll think twice about instigating the "birth pangs of a new Middle East." As the US has discovered in Iraq, the outcome isn't exactly what they've envisioned. LOL.
Video

The Roots of the War. George Galloway says violence will continue.

Israel responded to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah, right? Wrong


The assault on Lebanon was premeditated - the soldiers' capture simply provided the excuse. It was also unnecessary

George Monbiot
Tuesday August 8, 2006
The Guardian


Whatever we think of Israel's assault on Lebanon, all of us seem to agree about one fact: that it was a response, however disproportionate, to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah. I repeated this "fact" in my last column, when I wrote that "Hizbullah fired the first shots". This being so, the Israeli government's supporters ask peaceniks like me, what would you have done? It's an important question. But its premise, I have now discovered, is flawed.
Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns.

In October 2000, the Israel Defence Forces shot at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators on the border, killing three and wounding 20. In response, Hizbullah crossed the line and kidnapped three Israeli soldiers. On several occasions, Hizbullah fired missiles and mortar rounds at IDF positions, and the IDF responded with heavy artillery and sometimes aerial bombardment. Incidents like this killed three Israelis and three Lebanese in 2003; one Israeli soldier and two Hizbullah fighters in 2005; and two Lebanese people and three Israeli soldiers in February 2006. Rockets were fired from Lebanon into Israel several times in 2004, 2005 and 2006, on some occasions by Hizbullah. But, the UN records, "none of the incidents resulted in a military escalation".

On May 26 this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad - Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub - were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency. In June, a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994. Militants in southern Lebanon responded, on the day of the bombing, by launching eight rockets into Israel. One soldier was lightly wounded. There was a major bust-up on the border, during which one member of Hizbullah was killed and several wounded, and one Israeli soldier wounded. But while the border region "remained tense and volatile", Unifil says it was "generally quiet" until July 12.

There has been a heated debate on the internet about whether the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hizbullah that day were captured in Israel or in Lebanon, but it now seems pretty clear that they were seized in Israel. This is what the UN says, and even Hizbullah seems to have forgotten that they were supposed to have been found sneaking around the outskirts of the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab. Now it simply states that "the Islamic resistance captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine". Three other Israeli soldiers were killed by the militants. There is also some dispute about when, on July 12, Hizbullah first fired its rockets; but Unifil makes it clear that the firing took place at the same time as the raid - 9am. Its purpose seems to have been to create a diversion. No one was hit.

But there is no serious debate about why the two soldiers were captured: Hizbullah was seeking to exchange them for the 15 prisoners of war taken by the Israelis during the occupation of Lebanon and (in breach of article 118 of the third Geneva convention) never released. It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings. But the Israeli government refused to negotiate. Instead - well, we all know what happened instead. Almost 1,000 Lebanese and 33 Israeli civilians have been killed so far, and a million Lebanese displaced from their homes.

On July 12, in other words, Hizbullah fired the first shots. But that act of aggression was simply one instance in a long sequence of small incursions and attacks over the past six years by both sides. So why was the Israeli response so different from all that preceded it? The answer is that it was not a reaction to the events of that day. The assault had been planned for months.

The San Francisco Chronicle reports that "more than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to US and other diplomats, journalists and thinktanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail". The attack, he said, would last for three weeks. It would begin with bombing and culminate in a ground invasion. Gerald Steinberg, professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University, told the paper that "of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared ... By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board".

A "senior Israeli official" told the Washington Post that the raid by Hizbullah provided Israel with a "unique moment" for wiping out the organisation. The New Statesman's editor, John Kampfner, says he was told by more than one official source that the US government knew in advance of Israel's intention to take military action in Lebanon. The Bush administration told the British government.

Israel's assault, then, was premeditated: it was simply waiting for an appropriate excuse. It was also unnecessary. It is true that Hizbullah had been building up munitions close to the border, as its current rocket attacks show. But so had Israel. Just as Israel could assert that it was seeking to deter incursions by Hizbullah, Hizbullah could claim - also with justification - that it was trying to deter incursions by Israel. The Lebanese army is certainly incapable of doing so. Yes, Hizbullah should have been pulled back from the Israeli border by the Lebanese government and disarmed. Yes, the raid and the rocket attack on July 12 were unjustified, stupid and provocative, like just about everything that has taken place around the border for the past six years. But the suggestion that Hizbullah could launch an invasion of Israel or that it constitutes an existential threat to the state is preposterous. Since the occupation ended, all its acts of war have been minor ones, and nearly all of them reactive.

So it is not hard to answer the question of what we would have done. First, stop recruiting enemies, by withdrawing from the occupied territories in Palestine and Syria. Second, stop provoking the armed groups in Lebanon with violations of the blue line - in particular the persistent flights across the border. Third, release the prisoners of war who remain unlawfully incarcerated in Israel. Fourth, continue to defend the border, while maintaining the diplomatic pressure on Lebanon to disarm Hizbullah (as anyone can see, this would be much more feasible if the occupations were to end). Here then is my challenge to the supporters of the Israeli government: do you dare to contend that this programme would have caused more death and destruction than the current adventure has done?

link

 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Yes, modern armies plan things in advance. Every scenario, every situation, there are entire groups dedicated to just that. The abduction of Israeli troops had happened before, and they were simply preparing for it to happen again. Hezbollah's last attack was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

I find it amazing that you think Israel wanted this to happen. I'm pretty sure you're one of those who thinks 9/11 was premeditated by the American government as well.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Threads claiming it's all Israel's fault: 39,245

Threads offering reasonable alternatives:0

 

wetech

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
871
6
81
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,359
9,562
136
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,247
126
"Conservatives" fail to realize that there is not 1 Whole Picture, but actually 2 Whole Pictures.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.
Not that I'm even a liberal, but I am curious as to what would have been your solution to the problem 60+ years back?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Ronstang

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.
Not that I'm even a liberal, but I am curious as to what would have been your solution to the problem 60+ years back?

Well a big help would have been for past conservative presidents (and liberal presidents, to be fair) to not give weapons and training to terrorist organizations and rogue governments as fast as they possible could. If I remember correctly, we continued to give Saddam weapons AFTER he gassed all those Kurds. Boy, conservatives get their panties in a bunch about that NOW, but back then, who gives a rat's ass?

And that's the problem, typical conservative linear thinking. The USSR were the bad guys, so supporting any action taken against them, no matter how reprehensible or short sighted, was a good idea. Well here we are, our past actions coming back to bite us firmly in the ass. Good show, folks, but maybe we should try some "liberal" thinking this time around.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.

Doesn't that assume that we're dealing entirely with random crazy people who have no motive or reasoning behind their actions, that the only way to deal with them is to kill them and/or remove the reward for their actions? The carrot and stick approach is a well proven technique when dealing with nation states, I'm not sure it's impossible to use the same idea with at least some terrorist groups...or at least their supporters.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.

Doesn't that assume that we're dealing entirely with random crazy people who have no motive or reasoning behind their actions, that the only way to deal with them is to kill them and/or remove the reward for their actions? The carrot and stick approach is a well proven technique when dealing with nation states, I'm not sure it's impossible to use the same idea with at least some terrorist groups...or at least their supporters.

so you would say that the call for the entire extermination of a race of people by other arab countries is well thought out with motive and reason being the key? hmmmm
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,247
126
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.

Doesn't that assume that we're dealing entirely with random crazy people who have no motive or reasoning behind their actions, that the only way to deal with them is to kill them and/or remove the reward for their actions? The carrot and stick approach is a well proven technique when dealing with nation states, I'm not sure it's impossible to use the same idea with at least some terrorist groups...or at least their supporters.

so you would say that the call for the entire extermination of a race of people by other arab countries is well thought out with motive and reason being the key? hmmmm

If any have, of course not. Most call for the elimination of the state of Israel, but that's an entirely different scenario.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,711
8
81
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

Israel thinks that by bombing and occupying Lebanon that they will destroy an organization whose sole reason for ever existing in the first place was the last time Israel bombed and occupied Lebanon. . .
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: Aisengard
Yes, modern armies plan things in advance. Every scenario, every situation, there are entire groups dedicated to just that. The abduction of Israeli troops had happened before, and they were simply preparing for it to happen again. Hezbollah's last attack was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

I find it amazing that you think Israel wanted this to happen. I'm pretty sure you're one of those who thinks 9/11 was premeditated by the American government as well.

No, this wasn't just any old plan. It was a plan to destroy Hezbullah once and for all. It was to use a pretext not unlike the July 12th incident to re-align the whole Middle East, or at least the parts that threaten Israel. However, this plan was made in 2004. One year later, Syria was kicked out of Lebanon and the Lebanese were putting pressure on Hezbullah. Eventually that pressure would've lead to something. But the arrogance or stupidity didn't see the Cedar Revolution for what it truly was. In fact, I doubt that they updated their plan to take it into account. A democratic, stable government is what Israel really wants. Instead of concentrating on Hezbullah, Israel decides to destroy the whole country, collective punishment, if you will. This is not unlike what they've been doing to the Palestinians for over a decade now and look how well that turned out. I'm not saying that the Palestinians had a democracy for that length of time. No, but what I'm saying is that they had an opportunity to support a relatively secular government and instead, in all their arrogance and stupidity, decided to exact vengeance for something that both sides are guilty of: raids on each others territory.

Israel destroyed a golden opportunity in Palestine and Lebanon. Intelligence must be lacking in their political and military echelon.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Israel thinks that by bombing and occupying Lebanon that they will destroy an organization whose sole reason for ever existing in the first place was the last time Israel bombed and occupied Lebanon. . .

Israel is out to put an end to this once and for all. In the United States it use to be called winning a war.
Which is something that Unites states and it appears very few countries are able to stomach anymore.
There is no such thing as a fair war.
Just ask the Hezbollah leaders who decided it was appropriate for there militia to hide and cower among women and children knowing ful well the retribution of Israel would also kill civilians.
yet alot of people on these forums act all high and might as if israel should fight fair while its enemy-- you know the one that wants to push Israel into the sea makes up the rules as it goes along without any regard for Lebonese or Palestinian women and children.

:D
 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
2
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.

Why is it "arresting" when Israel takes other countries' citizens and holds them without trial and "kidnapping" when someone does it to Israel? To me they are the same.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.

Doesn't that assume that we're dealing entirely with random crazy people who have no motive or reasoning behind their actions, that the only way to deal with them is to kill them and/or remove the reward for their actions? The carrot and stick approach is a well proven technique when dealing with nation states, I'm not sure it's impossible to use the same idea with at least some terrorist groups...or at least their supporters.

so you would say that the call for the entire extermination of a race of people by other arab countries is well thought out with motive and reason being the key? hmmmm

If any have, of course not. Most call for the elimination of the state of Israel, but that's an entirely different scenario.

What do you think will happen if Israel as a state dissolves?
Arabs Muslims and Jews sing Kumbayah?

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

Israel thinks that by bombing and occupying Lebanon that they will destroy an organization whose sole reason for ever existing in the first place was the last time Israel bombed and occupied Lebanon. . .


What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.


 

mrCide

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 1999
6,187
0
76
Why is it "arresting" when Israel takes other countries' citizens and holds them without trial and "kidnapping" when someone does it to Israel? To me they are the same.

funny how no one seems to get this. well it's either that or they make excuses, and excuses, and then some more excuses.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Israel thinks that by bombing and occupying Lebanon that they will destroy an organization whose sole reason for ever existing in the first place was the last time Israel bombed and occupied Lebanon. . .

Israel is out to put an end to this once and for all. In the United States it use to be called winning a war.
Which is something that Unites states and it appears very few countries are able to stomach anymore.
There is no such thing as a fair war.
Just ask the Hezbollah leaders who decided it was appropriate for there militia to hide and cower among women and children knowing ful well the retribution of Israel would also kill civilians.
yet alot of people on these forums act all high and might as if israel should fight fair while its enemy-- you know the one that wants to push Israel into the sea makes up the rules as it goes along without any regard for Lebonese or Palestinian women and children.

:D

Wars aren't what they used to be. You, of all people should know that. There are no more symmetries; no more honor; no more legitimacy; and the weapons have gotten nastier. Worse, wars are now broadcast around the world 24 hours a day, so the guerillas look like freedom fighters and the standing armies' activities are examined with a fine-tooth comb. Worse, there is never any "winners" in the traditional sense, only losers. Don't believe me? Look at Israel's primary goals at the beginning of the conflict and her goals today; look at that infamous "Mission Accomplished" banner aboard the USS carrier in 2003.

Just as with the internet today, in wars the individual is king. You have to win the hearts and minds of civilians to be considered successful in today's wars or else another conflict will just prop up.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,247
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: wetech
this is still my favorite argument:
It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings.

I don't understand the logic behind this. terrorists kidnap people, you give them what they want, and that's supposed to deter them from further kidnappings??? :confused:

Liberals do not think ahead or look at the whole picture. The solution must ease their mind, conscience, and feelings. The truth is not important. The current conflict is just the result of the liberal pressure to keep putting off reality for the last 60+ years and guaranteeing the status quo. All that has resulted in the terrorists being able to continue to build into a stronger force.

QFT- spot on.

Allowing kidnapping to have rewards, invites further kidnappings. The same holds true for any action, including terrorism.

Doesn't that assume that we're dealing entirely with random crazy people who have no motive or reasoning behind their actions, that the only way to deal with them is to kill them and/or remove the reward for their actions? The carrot and stick approach is a well proven technique when dealing with nation states, I'm not sure it's impossible to use the same idea with at least some terrorist groups...or at least their supporters.

so you would say that the call for the entire extermination of a race of people by other arab countries is well thought out with motive and reason being the key? hmmmm

If any have, of course not. Most call for the elimination of the state of Israel, but that's an entirely different scenario.

What do you think will happen if Israel as a state dissolves?
Arabs Muslims and Jews sing Kumbayah?

If they were interested in extermination of the Jewish race, they need only look down the street from where they live to start the process.
 

cumhail

Senior member
Apr 1, 2003
682
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.

And as a direct result of that invasion, Hezbollah was created to take their place. So what we're shooting for, according to you, is for a newly named group to take Hezbollah's place so that in 2030, when that group's activities are being used as the justification for another invasion and another round of disproportionate punitive punishment against the Lebanese people for the activities of that group, you (or whoever then represents your viewpoint) can say:

"What was the reason for the 2006 invasion? To drive out the Hezbollah, what happened? Hezbollah was driven out."

Does that about sum it up?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: cumhail
Originally posted by: Genx87
What was the reason for the 1982 invasion? To drive out the PLO, what happened? The PLO was driven out.

And Hezbollah was created to take their place. So what we're shooting for, according to you, is for a newly named group to take Hezbollah's place so that in 2030, when that group's activities are being used as the justification for another invasion and another round of disproportionate punitive punishment against the Lebanese people for the activities of that group, you (or whoever then represents your viewpoint) can say:

"What was the reason for the 2006 invasion? To drive out the Hezbollah, what happened? Hezbollah was driven out."

Does that about sum it up?

Yes, the goal is to drive Hizbollah out. The Lebonese people embrace Hizbollah, I dont have much sympathy for a people who embrace a terrorist organization.

If the Lebonese people dont like the circumstances they live in, they should turn on the people that have caused it. Those people are Hizbollah.