Was Bose always Bad

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Digital switching amplifiers with APFC can literally match power drawn from the mains to what the speakers receive!

I've never seen better than maybe 90% total efficiency on a hi-fi product, and maybe 95% on something to be used for subwoofers. 100% efficiency is a physical impossibility.

Originally posted by: Yoxxy

Most amps that do 200+ wpc into 7 channels or 5 require atleast a 20A fuse, some require 30A.

20A @ 120v = 3.6 kilowatts. 200WPC into 7 channels = 1.4 kilowatts.

Assuming an amplifier uses a linear power supply, you might expect 65% efficiency, or 2.2 kW of input power. If you're 800W above that, then something's already caught on fire. (This is assuming these are "slo-blo" fuses; inrush current on some amps can be very high due to the current required to charge the capacitors.)

Originally posted by: Yoxxy

Digital amps are also crazy expensive for what you get and do ok for low-end frequencies but that is about it. To date I have only seen good monoblocks and two channels not many that are 5-6-7 channels...as the pwm gets extremely hot.

Please come back when you've exited the 90s. Tripath, Hypex, and Bang & Olufsen's Icepower amplifiers all offer very high value for money, especially considering the power they produce. Even inexpensive class-D amplifiers from Crown and the like are easily on par with most receivers under $600 in terms of sound quality....but are capable of much, much, much more output.

"PWM getting hot" is nonsense. Class-D amplifiers are often three times as efficient as their class A/B counterparts, producing 1/3 the heat for the same amount of output.

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
Ruby is also right on driving multiple channels. I purchased an Adcom 5 channel x 400w into 4 ohms just because I do not want to deal with an extremely large rack and my speakers are not incredibly hungry.

The Axioms are significantly hungrier, but having said that if you came into my HT you would probably pick the B & W's over that Axiom setup. It is not about how much you can make the room pound it is about how clear and colorful the sound is.

On the subject of receivers, I might point out that if you can afford the top-spec Axiom products, you can afford to buy separate preamp/processor and amplification. For a hair over a grand, you can get six channels' worth of QSC RMX850 amp, capable of producing 430 watts per channel into two ohms.

I'm not quite sure what B&W products you're referring to, but anything below the 800 series isn't really worth the money. The 602s, for example, have only a single coil in series with the woofer which allows it to play far higher frequencies than it should.

I mean if you just want the place to pound, think about buying these. http://cgi.ebay.com/HiVi-Swans...3A16|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Have you ever used any Hi-Vi drivers or listened to any Swans speakers?

No?

If so, please go away and STFU. The Hi-Vi B3S is generally regarded as the best full-range driver below $30(and it's $9.50!), the D6.8 can't be called a Dynaudio knock-off because knockoffs don't work far better than the original, and their planar tweeters offer superb off-axis high frequency response. Similarly, the SP10 subwoofer is an amazing combination of low distortion, low-frequency output, low cost, and T/S specs that allow it to be used in a very small volume.

My speakers use the D6.8 woofer, a custom-spec MB Quart dome mid, and a small Hi-Vi (RT1.3?) tweeter. And they're excellent.

 

[The-Noid]

20A is standard for mid-range amps, I have seen 30A as the standard on AVSforum for HT rooms. A few people even install 60A. Obviously the amp probably will not be the only thing on the circuit.

You really brought Bang and Olufsen up. Seriously? The same company that takes a Samsung TV changes the Bezel and charges $15,000. That is a glowing endorsement.

I have heard quite a few of the Swans speakers. Decided to go with B & W in the end though. I love the 8 Series. Having said that as is the way with audiophiles everyone always thinks their equipment is superior to anyone else. I have also auditioned HiVi, YG Acoustics, JMBLabs, Kharma, and Von Schweikert.

Overall, again we are talking about something completely off topic. Bose is Bose and if the OP buys the Axiom's he is going to need an amp. end of story.

As for the B & W's you can get in the Axiom price range you can save money and buy the CM series and end up with a speaker with the majority of the technology of the 800's for significantly less. If I ever get another pair of stereo speakers it will be the Thiel CS3.7, they are my personal favorite speakers, but I had already bought the B & W's when I heard them.

 

[Rubycon]

Digam's Powersoft K10 and K20 amps claim 95% efficiency and are outstanding full range amplifiers. 20kW in a 1U package is nothing to sneeze at!

I run a 1100 seat theater with K10's and I've never seen an amplifier that has control over the cones like these.

Crown's I-tech is their premier line but they aren't nearly as smooth on the HF as the Digam's. QSC's powerlight 3.0 sound better IMO. Again live sound experience is considerably different than recording playback in the home.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Yoxxy


You really brought Bang and Olufsen up. Seriously? The same company that takes a Samsung TV changes the Bezel and charges $15,000. That is a glowing endorsement.

However, much like that Samsung TV, you can get the amp module outside the fancy box. There's a discussion thread on DIYaudio - they're supposed to be very, very good. (It's curious that you mentioned Samsung, though - the IcePower stuff was designed in collaboration with Samsung and Sanyo.)

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
20A is standard for mid-range amps, I have seen 30A as the standard on AVSforum for HT rooms. A few people even install 60A. Obviously the amp probably will not be the only thing on the circuit.

You're talking wall outlets - that's a bit different. 30A isn't all that much if you've got two 1,000 watt subwoofer amplifiers (and you need the power to get 10hz output.)

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
I have heard quite a few of the Swans speakers. Decided to go with B & W in the end though. I love the 8 Series. Having said that as is the way with audiophiles everyone always thinks their equipment is superior to anyone else. I have also auditioned HiVi, YG Acoustics, JMBLabs, Kharma, and Von Schweikert.

I'd much rather have a pair of Von Schweikarts than my Cliffhanger Bulldogs. (Of course, I've got a DIY project in the works that should be roughly on par with the 805s - but I'm cheating and using a DSP crossover.) The 8 series is good - the 6 series, not so impressive.

It's also worth noting that Hi-Vi (and its' parent company, Swans) have yet to develop a really good midwoofer or midrange driver. The woofers - great. The tweeters - great. The subwoofers - great. The important bit in the middle - not so great.

Originally posted by: Yoxxy
As for the B & W's you can get in the Axiom price range you can save money and buy the CM series and end up with a speaker with the majority of the technology of the 800's for significantly less. If I ever get another pair of stereo speakers it will be the Thiel CS3.7, they are my personal favorite speakers, but I had already bought the B & W's when I heard them.

I suppose it's worth listening to them all. I'm a big fan of the more "cold" and "dull" sound produced by studio-monitor style speakers like the B&W 800 series (or my KRK studio monitors), while my brief experience listening to some $40,000 McIntosh monsters left me wondering why anyone wouldn't just go buy some Paradigms and spend the rest on a speedboat.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
$40,000 McIntosh monsters left me wondering why anyone wouldn't just go buy some Paradigms and spend the rest on a speedboat.

Because the ones spending that much on a pair of loudspeakers are spending $5M on a yacht.

I know, I have some wealthy friends.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
$40,000 McIntosh monsters left me wondering why anyone wouldn't just go buy some Paradigms and spend the rest on a speedboat.

Because the ones spending that much on a pair of loudspeakers are spending $5M on a yacht.

I know, I have some wealthy friends.

Not always.

I have a friend who has a McIntosh setup, $800 speaker cables, etc. I don't know what his speakers cost, but he has over 25 grand in equipment (I think just the needle on his phonograph cost a couple thousand).

He and his wife are both successful IT professionals, but hardly millionaires. They live in a nice but not extravagent home. He is just a classic audiophile, and has very specific tastes.

The amazing thing to me is that he waited until recently to even get a Blu-Ray player, and he still uses a 720p projector in his theater room. Apparently he doesn't have the same demanding requirements for video that he does for audio.

 

[Rubycon]

Haha the audiophiles refer to videophiles as vidiots.

Gotta agree though that an accurate sound system is preferred over screen size and resolution. The eye is easy to fool whereas the ear is definitely not.

 

[Oyeve]

Bose is to speakers as Apple is to computers.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Rubycon


Because the ones spending that much on a pair of loudspeakers are spending $5M on a yacht.

My point is that the paradigms sounded better.

Of course, the McIntosh amps were full of tubes. I've yet to hear a tube amp that I liked (barring those with Stratocasters plugged into them, of course.)

Originally posted by: Oyeve
Bose is to speakers as Apple is to computers.

No, it's not. Bose products are massively unreliable (!@#$ foam surrounds); Apple PCs are generally made by Asus. Bose products are cheaply made; Apple products, though massively overpriced, are pretty well put together. And while Bose will give you total crap for $4,000, Apple will give you a pretty powerful eight-core workstation.

It's more of the Bang & Olufsen of computers. Actually not that bad, but you pay far, far more than it's worth.

 

[Rio Rebel]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: Oyeve
Bose is to speakers as Apple is to computers.

No, it's not. Bose products are massively unreliable (!@#$ foam surrounds); Apple PCs are generally made by Asus. Bose products are cheaply made; Apple products, though massively overpriced, are pretty well put together. And while Bose will give you total crap for $4,000, Apple will give you a pretty powerful eight-core workstation.

It's more of the Bang & Olufsen of computers. Actually not that bad, but you pay far, far more than it's worth.

Well stated.