Was 9/11 really that bad?

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
I have said all along that 9-11 was a lucky blow by the terrorists that could have and indeed should have been prevented.
It was used by the Bushies to instill fear and hatred in Americans for political gain.
If Bush had not made it the end of the world issue he did the effects on the economy, national psyche, etc would have been far, far less.

Here's the article thanks to bugmenot.com:

Was 9/11 really that bad?
The attacks were a horrible act of mass murder, but history says we're overreacting.
By David A. Bell
January 28, 2007


IMAGINE THAT on 9/11, six hours after the assault on the twin towers and the Pentagon, terrorists had carried out a second wave of attacks on the United States, taking an additional 3,000 lives. Imagine that six hours after that, there had been yet another wave. Now imagine that the attacks had continued, every six hours, for another four years, until nearly 20 million Americans were dead. This is roughly what the Soviet Union suffered during World War II, and contemplating these numbers may help put in perspective what the United States has so far experienced during the war against terrorism.

It also raises several questions. Has the American reaction to the attacks in fact been a massive overreaction? Is the widespread belief that 9/11 plunged us into one of the deadliest struggles of our time simply wrong? If we did overreact, why did we do so? Does history provide any insight?

Certainly, if we look at nothing but our enemies' objectives, it is hard to see any indication of an overreaction. The people who attacked us in 2001 are indeed hate-filled fanatics who would like nothing better than to destroy this country. But desire is not the same thing as capacity, and although Islamist extremists can certainly do huge amounts of harm around the world, it is quite different to suggest that they can threaten the existence of the United States.

Yet a great many Americans, particularly on the right, have failed to make this distinction. For them, the "Islamo-fascist" enemy has inherited not just Adolf Hitler's implacable hatreds but his capacity to destroy. The conservative author Norman Podhoretz has gone so far as to say that we are fighting World War IV (No. III being the Cold War).

But it is no disrespect to the victims of 9/11, or to the men and women of our armed forces, to say that, by the standards of past wars, the war against terrorism has so far inflicted a very small human cost on the United States. As an instance of mass murder, the attacks were unspeakable, but they still pale in comparison with any number of military assaults on civilian targets of the recent past, from Hiroshima on down.

Even if one counts our dead in Iraq and Afghanistan as casualties of the war against terrorism, which brings us to about 6,500, we should remember that roughly the same number of Americans die every two months in automobile accidents.

Of course, the 9/11 attacks also conjured up the possibility of far deadlier attacks to come. But then, we were hardly ignorant of these threats before, as a glance at just about any thriller from the 1990s will testify. And despite the even more nightmarish fantasies of the post-9/11 era (e.g. the TV show "24's" nuclear attack on Los Angeles), Islamist terrorists have not come close to deploying weapons other than knives, guns and conventional explosives. A war it may be, but does it really deserve comparison to World War II and its 50 million dead? Not every adversary is an apocalyptic threat.

So why has there been such an overreaction? Unfortunately, the commentators who detect one have generally explained it in a tired, predictably ideological way: calling the United States a uniquely paranoid aggressor that always overreacts to provocation.

In a recent book, for instance, political scientist John Mueller evaluated the threat that terrorists pose to the United States and convincingly concluded that it has been, to quote his title, "Overblown." But he undercut his own argument by adding that the United States has overreacted to every threat in its recent history, including even Pearl Harbor (rather than trying to defeat Japan, he argued, we should have tried containment!).

Seeing international conflict in apocalyptic terms ? viewing every threat as existential ? is hardly a uniquely American habit. To a certain degree, it is a universal human one. But it is also, more specifically, a Western one, which paradoxically has its origins in one of the most optimistic periods of human history: the 18th century Enlightenment.

Until this period, most people in the West took warfare for granted as an utterly unavoidable part of the social order. Western states fought constantly and devoted most of their disposable resources to this purpose; during the 1700s, no more than six or seven years passed without at least one major European power at war.

The Enlightenment, however, popularized the notion that war was a barbaric relic of mankind's infancy, an anachronism that should soon vanish from the Earth. Human societies, wrote the influential thinkers of the time, followed a common path of historical evolution from savage beginnings toward ever-greater levels of peaceful civilization, politeness and commercial exchange.

The unexpected consequence of this change was that those who considered themselves "enlightened," but who still thought they needed to go to war, found it hard to justify war as anything other than an apocalyptic struggle for survival against an irredeemably evil enemy. In such struggles, of course, there could be no reason to practice restraint or to treat the enemy as an honorable opponent.

Ever since, the enlightened dream of perpetual peace and the nightmare of modern total war have been bound closely to each other in the West. Precisely when the Enlightenment hopes glowed most brightly, wars often took on an especially hideous character.

The Enlightenment was followed by the French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars, which touched every European state, sparked vicious guerrilla conflicts across the Continent and killed millions (including, probably, a higher proportion of young Frenchmen than died from 1914 to 1918).

During the hopeful early years of the 20th century, journalist Norman Angell's huge bestseller, "The Great Illusion," argued that wars had become too expensive to fight. Then came the unspeakable horrors of World War I. And the end of the Cold War, which seemed to promise the worldwide triumph of peace and democracy in a more stable unipolar world, has been followed by the wars in the Balkans, the Persian Gulf War and the present global upheaval. In each of these conflicts, the United States has justified the use of force by labeling its foe a new Hitler, not only in evil intentions but in potential capacity.

Yet as the comparison with the Soviet experience should remind us, the war against terrorism has not yet been much of a war at all, let alone a war to end all wars. It is a messy, difficult, long-term struggle against exceptionally dangerous criminals who actually like nothing better than being put on the same level of historical importance as Hitler ? can you imagine a better recruiting tool? To fight them effectively, we need coolness, resolve and stamina. But we also need to overcome long habit and remind ourselves that not every enemy is in fact a threat to our existence.

David A. Bell, a professor of history at Johns Hopkins University and a contributing editor for the New Republic, is the author of "The First Total War: Napoleon's Europe and the Birth of Warfare as We Know It."

 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: techs
I have said all along that 9-11 was a lucky blow by the terrorists that could have and indeed should have been prevented.
It was used by the Bushies to instill fear and hatred in Americans for political gain.
If Bush had not made it the end of the world issue he did the effects on the economy, national psyche, etc would have been far, far less.
I'll say it again: if people want to carry out this type of attack, no one can stop them. If you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself in an effort to isolate yourself from how unsafe the world really is. Any average Joe can make a bomb and blow up a large public building on a moment's notice.

I think 9/11 was terrible. It might not appear so bad by the numbers alone, but the world has changed since WW II. That, and I don't believe that numbers are any indicator of tragedy. Did we overreact? Perhaps. Or maybe we underreacted. Or maybe we reacted in the wrong way. Based on the Afghanis that I know personally now that come to the US to go to school and my friends that have served there, I have little doubt that we did right to go there, though perhaps our measures were a bit off target. I'm not sure I can say the same for Iraq, but the Iraqis I know here were all out long before 2001 (most in the late 80's/early 90's). My friends that have served there wish they hadn't and have a much more negative outlook than those who served in Afghanistan.

I think that if we want to define an effective response to terrorism, we first need to define the problem. Bush has defined the problem in one way. Based on that definition, I don't think Iraq is a bad call at all. However, I would define the problem quite differently (though I'm still not sure exactly how), so my solution would also be quite different.
 

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
1,401
0
0
9/11 was a piss-poor military style attack, pulled off by 19 gang members. Nothing more. They were creative in their thinking and ruthless in their execution. Other than that, they weren't crap.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
It was horrible. What is worse is that afterwards we had a chance of uniting the World in fighting the WOT and Bush completely fscked it up by attacking Iraq.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
For some reason there are always some people out there who will seek to minimize and even trivialize what happened on 9/11/01. This is just the latest, and boldest, attempt to do so.

1. Rewrite history
2. Add "See it wasn't really that bad" to the list of reasons why we shouldn't be in Iraq/Afghanistan
3. ...?
4. Profit!

Yes, it was that bad.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: XMan
http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio...n28,1,1396095.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I'll bite my tongue and say that the impact of 9/11 was more than the lives lost, but the hit to our economy, sense of security, and national psyche, as well. He does however make some interesting points. What do you think?

So why did it hit your economy, sense of security, national psyche etc? Certainly bringing down some office space by itself didn't have any significant economic impact and bad as 3000 people dying is, that's not a significant portion of your population.

9/11 is was as bad simply because of the way people thought, they let it be a big thing - politicians (especially the neocon type) savoured the new power and prestige that came with it, the sensationalist media went absolutely apeshit (I remember having ~60 channels of nothing but news for several days after), the war/sacrifice fetishists and the melodramatic pussies finally had something to distract them from their boring lives.

If you're not convinced, compare it to the Madrid bombings. Relative to each country's size, the Madrid bombings were about half as bad as 9/11, but the reaction and its aftermath were nowhere near to what 9/11 was.

Now, I'm not saying people should have simply ignored the whole thing, but the reaction was vastly disproportional, and I am not even going to get into Iraq.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
One strategy used by primitive people was to secure food by stampeding large and dangerous beasts. Instead of attacking them directly---any scare tactic that would induce them to jump of the side of a cliff was time honored
effective. And this is exactly what the Al-Quida led 911 attack is doing---we are weakening our selves by hemorrhaging money in Iraq----while acting like a child who got stung by a bee in a china shop---thus angering the rest of the world while Ossama and his buddies sit back in total safety and laugh their heads off.

Only when we wise up and quit heading to the precipice of doom will Al-Quida be then forced to show their ugly faces and again herd us toward the cliffs of doom.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,828
10,127
136
9-11 was but a warning on how much the world had changed in the past 50 years. The main event remains ahead of us, whether we?re willing to prevent it or not. Iraq does not do a damn thing to prevent it. Not only was our intelligence on Iraq horribly wrong, but it was the least dangerous of the rogue nations, but now in rebuilding we?ve gone ahead and shown weakness. That is a very dangerous mistake.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Martin
If you're not convinced, compare it to the Madrid bombings. Relative to each country's size, the Madrid bombings were about half as bad as 9/11, but the reaction and its aftermath were nowhere near to what 9/11 was.

Now, I'm not saying people should have simply ignored the whole thing, but the reaction was vastly disproportional, and I am not even going to get into Iraq.
Or perhaps Spain should have reacted more strongly to their own terrorist attacks? Perhaps they should have gotten as angry as the US and become more committed to the GWOT!

maybe...
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Martin
So why did it hit your economy, sense of security, national psyche etc? Certainly bringing down some office space by itself didn't have any significant economic impact and bad as 3000 people dying is, that's not a significant portion of your population.

9/11 is was as bad simply because of the way people thought, they let it be a big thing - politicians (especially the neocon type) savoured the new power and prestige that came with it, the sensationalist media went absolutely apeshit (I remember having ~60 channels of nothing but news for several days after), the war/sacrifice fetishists and the melodramatic pussies finally had something to distract them from their boring lives.

If you're not convinced, compare it to the Madrid bombings. Relative to each country's size, the Madrid bombings were about half as bad as 9/11, but the reaction and its aftermath were nowhere near to what 9/11 was.

Now, I'm not saying people should have simply ignored the whole thing, but the reaction was vastly disproportional, and I am not even going to get into Iraq.
The reaction to the Madrid bombing was perhaps more dramatic. It simply went in the opposite direction from our reaction to 9/11.
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
9-11 was but a warning on how much the world had changed in the past 50 years. The main event remains ahead of us, whether we?re willing to prevent it or not. Iraq does not do a damn thing to prevent it. Not only was our intelligence on Iraq horribly wrong, but it was the least dangerous of the rogue nations, but now in rebuilding we?ve gone ahead and shown weakness. That is a very dangerous mistake.
I think the reason we ended up in Iraq is because it was the least dangerous of the 'rogue nations'. We sought to make Iraq an example of what would happen if the others defied us. Unfortunately, that's backfired pretty seriously, with the primary result being the emboldening of the other 'rogue nations'.
 

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
1,401
0
0
"while acting like a child who got stung by a bee in a china shop"

I'd venue a guess, that in all of recorded history, no child has ever been stung by a bee, while visiting a china shop. :D

Your analogy is absolutely correct though. IMO.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: XMan
http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio...n28,1,1396095.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I'll bite my tongue and say that the impact of 9/11 was more than the lives lost, but the hit to our economy, sense of security, and national psyche, as well. He does however make some interesting points. What do you think?

If you're not convinced, compare it to the Madrid bombings. Relative to each country's size, the Madrid bombings were about half as bad as 9/11, but the reaction and its aftermath were nowhere near to what 9/11 was.

Now, I'm not saying people should have simply ignored the whole thing, but the reaction was vastly disproportional, and I am not even going to get into Iraq.

I have to say that I disagree with you about the effects of the Madrid bombing. I imagine Jose Maria Aznar would, as well.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The reaction to the Madrid bombing was perhaps more dramatic. It simply went in the opposite direction from our reaction to 9/11.

Really? A few percentage points shift in the polls versus the 90%+ approval rating Bush saw? The 24/7 news coverage across all channels for days afterwards? Hicks living in the middle of nowhere suddenly feeling fearful? The whole absurdity with everyone draping themselves in flags? The incessant references to 9/11 in writings completely unrelated to anything having to do with it?

This may not have seemed outrageous to you, but to an outsider looking it, it was like a big circus, or a theatre of the absurd.


IMO Spain's reaction was more subdued mainly because they've been through more than the US. The ~60 years saw civil war, dictatorship, revolution, separatist bombing campaigns etc. The US fought some wars, but sending your military overseas isn't nearly the same as the above happening at home.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I agree that its was unique---the first time international terrorism struck the US---but its been a norm for Europe for at least the past 35 years.
Somewhat punishment for the sins of Europe's colonial past.

But even though this 911 attack suddenly happened in the US---we tend to forget that the target---the world trade organization which only happened to be located in New York City was a world terror target #1. After the first two planes hit the hated symbol of the world trade towers, the other planes that were reserve backup became expendable---and were used to slake the wahabist beliefs of Ossama Bin Laden still angry at the Saudi King for the sacrilege of allowing US troops to be based in Saudi Arabia during gulf war one. And in the world wide terrorist movement wahabism is not a driving force.

So what I am saying that 911 still was not a signal international terrorism was targeting the USA---and that the USA was never on the terrorist raddar screen.----but our over reaction may place the USA as a future number one target for terrorists.

 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The reaction to the Madrid bombing was perhaps more dramatic. It simply went in the opposite direction from our reaction to 9/11.

Really? A few percentage points shift in the polls versus the 90%+ approval rating Bush saw? The 24/7 news coverage across all channels for days afterwards? Hicks living in the middle of nowhere suddenly feeling fearful? The whole absurdity with everyone draping themselves in flags? The incessant references to 9/11 in writings completely unrelated to anything having to do with it?

This may not have seemed outrageous to you, but to an outsider looking it, it was like a big circus, or a theatre of the absurd.


IMO Spain's reaction was more subdued mainly because they've been through more than the US. The ~60 years saw civil war, dictatorship, revolution, separatist bombing campaigns etc. The US fought some wars, but sending your military overseas isn't nearly the same as the above happening at home.

Canada doesn't know anything about national pride, so it would seem absurd to you. When the US gets attacked, we unite. Canada doesn't get attacked because it has no significance on the world stage, which might actually be a good thing.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,787
6,347
126
In retrospect it certainly was an over-reaction. At the time, even I living very far away from it was struck with horror and wondering what's next, but as the days and weeks wore on the real scope of the attack began to become clear.

9/11 was tragic for sure, it was even very costly Economically, but much of the early damage wasn't the result of the Terrorist acts themselves, it was from our reactions to those acts of Terror.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
in one word...........................................................................
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Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The reaction to the Madrid bombing was perhaps more dramatic. It simply went in the opposite direction from our reaction to 9/11.

Really? A few percentage points shift in the polls versus the 90%+ approval rating Bush saw? The 24/7 news coverage across all channels for days afterwards? Hicks living in the middle of nowhere suddenly feeling fearful? The whole absurdity with everyone draping themselves in flags? The incessant references to 9/11 in writings completely unrelated to anything having to do with it?

This may not have seemed outrageous to you, but to an outsider looking it, it was like a big circus, or a theatre of the absurd.


IMO Spain's reaction was more subdued mainly because they've been through more than the US. The ~60 years saw civil war, dictatorship, revolution, separatist bombing campaigns etc. The US fought some wars, but sending your military overseas isn't nearly the same as the above happening at home.

Canada doesn't know anything about national pride, so it would seem absurd to you. When the US gets attacked, we unite. Canada doesn't get attacked because it has no significance on the world stage, which might actually be a good thing.

national pride - you mean that pathetic crutch people use to feel proud because they have no achievements of their own? I didn't think anybody would see that as a good thing.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
In the same context, was Pearl Harbor really that bad?

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
9/11 was a piss-poor military style attack, pulled off by 19 gang members. Nothing more. They were creative in their thinking and ruthless in their execution. Other than that, they weren't crap.

Excellent points

Pearl was a Country attacking a Country.

What Country was the hijackers representing?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,787
6,347
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
In the same context, was Pearl Harbor really that bad?

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
9/11 was a piss-poor military style attack, pulled off by 19 gang members. Nothing more. They were creative in their thinking and ruthless in their execution. Other than that, they weren't crap.

Excellent points

Pearl was a Country attacking a Country.

What Country was the hijackers representing?

Just to add: Japan wasn't just a Country, but a very powerful Country. They certainly had the capability of landing Troops on Hawaii and they could have easily gone on to carry out similar attacks on LA and other West Coast targets.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
In the same context, was Pearl Harbor really that bad?

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
9/11 was a piss-poor military style attack, pulled off by 19 gang members. Nothing more. They were creative in their thinking and ruthless in their execution. Other than that, they weren't crap.

Excellent points

Pearl was a Country attacking a Country.

What Country was the hijackers representing?

Just to add: Japan wasn't just a Country, but a very powerful Country. They certainly had the capability of landing Troops on Hawaii and they could have easily gone on to carry out similar attacks on LA and other West Coast targets.

But what about Terrer Terrer Terrer?