Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
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Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
p.s.
When you say *we unite* do you mean Canada and the US.
Of course not, you already forget how many Canadians are dieing over in Afghanistan
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
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2Xtreme21
Diamond Member
- Jun 13, 2004
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Shh, don't tell him facts.
By the way, I agree with the article. All those who take offense at the article for "even thinking about saying that" should be enraged at the Bush administration's ABUSE of 9/11 to accomplish foreign policy goals set up by a panel of people who want to run the world. There's nothing more absurd than exploiting a tragedy and fear for personal gain.
9/11 was just as bad as Pearl Harbor. The Middle East seems to be on the verge of implosion and I think that 9/11 is going to end up leading us into a conflict much larger than Iraq or Afghanistan.
That's exactly why it's significant... they're NOT representing a country (although countries can be complicit).
The fact that non-government actors will make up a large part of the future threat means a lot of changes about the way we think and the way we conduct business. We are still working through those problems and will be for a long time to come.
Overall it depends on what "that bad" means. I would basically say yes.
You are a little right and a lot wrong.
You're a little right in the general gist that 9/11 was pulled off by a small group of low-tech people. The fact that a small group of low-tech people can cause what they did is monumental. It changes... everything. It is simply incredible that our enemies and attacks upon us may not come from nation states but rather groups of people... operating everywhere, including our own USA. This means more than you can imagine to the military, our intel assets, and law enforcement. It is beyond significant.
Your a lot wrong in your dismissal of the attackers as unsophisticated "gang" members. The various extremist groups have an amazingly effective command and control that provide purpose, direction, and motivation.... and always with PSYOPs in mind. They have strategic, operational, and tactical objectives. They take into account a multitude of factors and often have external resources for moral, political, supply, and sanctuary needs. They have various cell organizational patterns that follow complex branches with a variety of cell types (intel, logistical, auxiliary, maneuver, and integrated among others). They have complicated communications networks and strategies.
Oh yes, they are creative and ruthless also.
Excellent article. The sad truth is that our reaction to 9/11 has damaged us much more than the act itself, with the Bush Admin leading the charge in the wrong direction. Their fearmongering and misdirection have weakened us internally and in the eyes of the world.
Too bad we didn't have the kind of leadership at the time who didn't have an ideological axe to grind, who could have said something like "We have nothing to fear except fear itself..."
Instead, we get the worst foreign policy blunders since Vietnam, and the most egregious attack on civil liberties since Joe McCarthy's Red Scare...
Still 2 years left- lots of time for even more arrogance and stupidity, like attacking Iran...
Too bad we didn't have the kind of leadership at the time who didn't have an ideological axe to grind, who could have said something like "We have nothing to fear except fear itself..."
Instead, we get the worst foreign policy blunders since Vietnam, and the most egregious attack on civil liberties since Joe McCarthy's Red Scare...
Still 2 years left- lots of time for even more arrogance and stupidity, like attacking Iran...
The reason it incited a patriotic response is that the WTC was a symbol of American capitalism. The extent of said reaction was as large as it was because of the drama of the event itself - the feeling of helplessness and despair that was witnessed in our fellow Americans leaping off of a skyscraper on that day. It's an emotionally disturbing image, if nothing else, and it was designed to elicit the type of response it got. People used this, often inappropriately, to bolster ratings, garner public support, and generally take people for a ride. Not an unexpected response for such an emotionally sheltered generation. We were perhaps overzealous in our response because we had never had to worry about such things in the past, so we got swept up in the excitement.
Spain, on the other hand (and as you mentioned), has endured similar things in the past. They have been exposed to terror on a variety of levels. So, while the swing in the polls may not have been so dramatic, the net reaction (a complete 180 on foreign policy) is perhaps more dramatic, keeping in mind the relative magnitude of a shift in Spanish policy relative to a similar shift in American policy.
The comparison between Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is troublesome on two fronts. The first, as others have pointed out, is that PH was perpetrated by a nation's military against a nation's military. The second is that 9/11 was perpetrated by unaffiliated zealots against civilians. Perhaps the fact that civilians were the target is what is most troublesome and why it evoked such a dramatic response.
But, perhaps the biggest reason the US reaction was so strong was that all of a sudden, we realized that the one thing we hadn't planned for had finally happened. All our military might couldn't ever keep us safe from an attack from the inside. This scared people, with the direct result that we wanted to get our military back on the front lines and make us feel safe again. It doesn't make me feel safe, but most people don't stop to think about the ease of perpetrating a terrorist act.
Reflecting on this makes me think that the terrorists are much smarter than I first thought. I originally thought that if one were interested in sewing terror, one would attack soft targets often and keep people scared. Instead, they came out, swiped the cheese, and ran back into their hole in the wall. Now, the cat can't get at them and sympathy for the cat has waned. This one act accomplished more than many, many smaller attacks could by hurting us in many ways. Which brings me back to how you define 'terrorism'. These people aren't trying to simply terrorize us - they're trying to bring us to our knees. 9/11 and our subsequent reaction seems to be playing right into their hands, probably better than they could have imagined.
UberNeuman
Lifer
- Nov 4, 1999
- 16,937
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Yeah, 911 was bad - if you like living like a victim...... I prefer getting back on my feet and moving on, instead of wallowing in it like a martyr...
Stunt
Diamond Member
- Jul 17, 2002
- 9,717
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This is not a new war and the US is overreacting; personally I think hard-line Republicans use it as a wedge issue to challenge patriotism. Did the US go over the top with 9/11? Yes; but the world was behind the war in Afghanistan and everyone came to the US's aid. Iraq was a whole different story.
I think our national psyche is a big issue - the 'absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely' has led us to have a terrible perspective on our role in the world, where our idea of 'fair and balanced', like Fox News', is problematic, where we feel the need for 'security' way above what we want any other nation to get.
It's why we feel it's ok for us to use so much more of the world's resources than others, and too bad for non-Americans. But of course we thnk we're also hugely 'generous' to those poor people. We rationalize not helping the global poor more by blaming them while unaware how much we've caused the poverty by taking their resources cheaply.
It's why we feel it's ok for us to use so much more of the world's resources than others, and too bad for non-Americans. But of course we thnk we're also hugely 'generous' to those poor people. We rationalize not helping the global poor more by blaming them while unaware how much we've caused the poverty by taking their resources cheaply.
This cannot be overstated. Here's a quote from Osama Bin Ladin's Fatwa
This was written in 1998. Its easy to see how people over there can come to support Bin Ladin. He not only predicts our actions, but supplies a strongly anti-Muslim motive for them (its irrelevant whether he is correct or not). By making us the enemy, he has made it easier for himself to be treated as an ally. He has ensured himself a virtually infinite supply of volunteers. The more of them we kill, the more we look like the enemy and the more recruits he gets.
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
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I wrote this 7 months ago
Since then, an additional 564 US troops and 13,337 Iraqi security forces and civilians (conservatively) have been killed and an additional $50 billion has been spent with no end in sight to either of them. All because DICK Cheney says we "need to show that we have the stomach" for a long battle against those who attacked us on 9/11 (even though none of them were from Iraq.
So, in terms of pure statistics, the 9/11 attacks weren't really that bad as we've suffered well more than that in just the Iraq theater.
As mentioned above, our national psyche took a direct hit and the Bush administration has been trying to capitalize on that ever since. Remember the 2004 Republican National 9/11 Convention? In my opinion, the aftermath of 9/11 re: this administration's attempts to keep Americans living in fear, trample upon the Constitution and our civil liberties and freedoms, and in continuing to feed the military-industrial beast is far, far worse than what 19 fanatics did to us on 9/11/01.
Since then, an additional 564 US troops and 13,337 Iraqi security forces and civilians (conservatively) have been killed and an additional $50 billion has been spent with no end in sight to either of them. All because DICK Cheney says we "need to show that we have the stomach" for a long battle against those who attacked us on 9/11 (even though none of them were from Iraq.
So, in terms of pure statistics, the 9/11 attacks weren't really that bad as we've suffered well more than that in just the Iraq theater.
As mentioned above, our national psyche took a direct hit and the Bush administration has been trying to capitalize on that ever since. Remember the 2004 Republican National 9/11 Convention? In my opinion, the aftermath of 9/11 re: this administration's attempts to keep Americans living in fear, trample upon the Constitution and our civil liberties and freedoms, and in continuing to feed the military-industrial beast is far, far worse than what 19 fanatics did to us on 9/11/01.
Surprisingly astute, Cyclowizard. But I suspect you're trying to soft-peddle the role of leadership with this-
"People used this, often inappropriately, to bolster ratings, garner public support, and generally take people for a ride. "
People used this? What People?
The people in the Whitehouse, that's what people... along with their congressional allies. Not only did they do nothing to quell fear and over reaction, they encouraged it, exploited it ruthlessly, shamelessly, on both a domestic and international level.
Played well, the hand they were dealt could have been played into a longterm dynasty of Repub control. Instead, what was the biggest political windfall since pearl harbor was then squandered in a fit of hubris, greed, and incompetence.
And they still haven't figured it out, even after staggering political losses in 2006, and escalating chaos in Iraq- They're still on the same agenda, despite it having been rejected by the electorate and the rest of the world in general.
Just as well, I suppose- they're just setting the stage for greater losses in 2008... if they can't find a way to bend with the wind, they'll be broken by it...
"People used this, often inappropriately, to bolster ratings, garner public support, and generally take people for a ride. "
People used this? What People?
The people in the Whitehouse, that's what people... along with their congressional allies. Not only did they do nothing to quell fear and over reaction, they encouraged it, exploited it ruthlessly, shamelessly, on both a domestic and international level.
Played well, the hand they were dealt could have been played into a longterm dynasty of Repub control. Instead, what was the biggest political windfall since pearl harbor was then squandered in a fit of hubris, greed, and incompetence.
And they still haven't figured it out, even after staggering political losses in 2006, and escalating chaos in Iraq- They're still on the same agenda, despite it having been rejected by the electorate and the rest of the world in general.
Just as well, I suppose- they're just setting the stage for greater losses in 2008... if they can't find a way to bend with the wind, they'll be broken by it...
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
To Jhhnn,
who writes--if they can't find a way to bend with the wind, they'll be broken by it...
Sadly the US constitution invested the both the military and the diplomatic solutions to Iraq into the executive branch of government. Even if you, me, and the average lamp post realize the executive is totally clueless, the executive has almost a veto power on other means of progress.
As a nation, we can wait until the elections of 11/08 and the inauguration of 1/09, or take the bold step of impeachment.
But the winds of change have already blown any and all the garments of morality from the morally bankrupt GWB administration, and they stand unashamed before the American public while more than 2 out of three screams out that the emperor wears no clothes. With GWB&co. more than willing to use naked power all over the world.
who writes--if they can't find a way to bend with the wind, they'll be broken by it...
Sadly the US constitution invested the both the military and the diplomatic solutions to Iraq into the executive branch of government. Even if you, me, and the average lamp post realize the executive is totally clueless, the executive has almost a veto power on other means of progress.
As a nation, we can wait until the elections of 11/08 and the inauguration of 1/09, or take the bold step of impeachment.
But the winds of change have already blown any and all the garments of morality from the morally bankrupt GWB administration, and they stand unashamed before the American public while more than 2 out of three screams out that the emperor wears no clothes. With GWB&co. more than willing to use naked power all over the world.
People in the White House, people in Congress - on both sides of the aisle - and just about everyone else. Instead of trying to play the blame game, why don't you tell us what you would do/would have done instead? Because it's easier to tell me that I'm covering for the White House, even though I've already specifically stated in this thread that I think he's going about it all wrong?
If people hadn't been so stupid to vote for Bush US soldiers wouldn't be dying in Iraq. 9/11 just gave him a reason to go there (and lie to the population about the reason for it)
Unite the world? What are you smoking.
this was the very same world that could not agree on removing the Taliban from Afghanistan before 9-11. The very same world that turned a blind eye to genocide in Africa because they knew there would be no agreement on how to stop it.
I just love this delusion that some people have, that the world would be much more united with a different US president. That is such bull. The US is always held to a different standard than Russia, China, and even certain members of the EU. The US is also still the powerhouse of world economies and that alone separates us.
Get along, hell, the world ain't going to get along until Terrorist start using nukes. Thats the sad part of it . Until someone's major city, other than a US or Israelie one, goes up in smoke the world ain't going to agree that there is a problem let alone fix it.
Hell, the EU and Russia seem hell bent to make sure Iran gets the bomb.... sometimes as if only to spite the US.
9/11 was horrible and it was bad enough to go after those responsible and those who harbored them. Our repsonse in Afghanistan was measured, appropriate, and completely in line with what should have happened. The whole world agreed that the Taliban needed to go and OBL brought to justice. It was the right thing for us to do.
Then, we went and decided that the Global War on Fear needed preemptive strikes in specific locations, namely Iraq, which had nothing to do with Al-Queda and had very loose ties to Hezbollah (Iran has stronger ties). However, it was an easy story to lie about and sell to the American public.
After that, we became the 2-ton Gorilla on crack rampaging around the world, deciding to impose our values (while subjugating them selectively in our own country) on the whole world.
Was 9/11 bad enough that it required action? Yes. Was it bad enough to require a complete elimination of our own morales, values, and system of justice? Hell no.
Then, we went and decided that the Global War on Fear needed preemptive strikes in specific locations, namely Iraq, which had nothing to do with Al-Queda and had very loose ties to Hezbollah (Iran has stronger ties). However, it was an easy story to lie about and sell to the American public.
After that, we became the 2-ton Gorilla on crack rampaging around the world, deciding to impose our values (while subjugating them selectively in our own country) on the whole world.
Was 9/11 bad enough that it required action? Yes. Was it bad enough to require a complete elimination of our own morales, values, and system of justice? Hell no.
Speculation, assumption, and wishful thinking ...
America's reaction certainly was a circus... and no one united.. they falsely united, which is completely different. They united in stupidity and overreaction causing the massive catastrophe which is the Iraqi OCCUPATION and 100s of billions in unnecessary debt, 10s of thousands of dead civilians etc.
I feel embarrassed every time I hear about us "uniting" because it was all forced and fake. I feel embarrassed when I see movies in the U.S. made to make money off of people dieing. I feel embarrassed that the "united" people had NO protest to the "Patriot Act" which restricts rights guaranteed by the founding fathers. Pathetic.
While I do not live in Canada, they have the highest percentage of their GDP going towards foreign aid and never attack random countries... I'd be proud if I lived there.
Oh, and I lived in NY at the time of 9/11.
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