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WARNING: Off Topic is approaching critical mass.
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networkman
Lifer
And now I find myself agreeing with Red Dawn. :Q 🙂
hungrygoose: Word of advice: Drop the coarse language - it doesn't help your arguement any and doesn't put you in the best light for having to use it either.
hungrygoose: Word of advice: Drop the coarse language - it doesn't help your arguement any and doesn't put you in the best light for having to use it either.
Question for RD, I've always wondered... do you genuinely dislike most people, or are the majority of your flames/insults/jokes or is the majority of it merely intended as teasing and/or to get a laugh?
In comment to the proffered idea of making 'Off Topic' a subscribers only forum, personally I'm of the opinion it would create more problems then it would solve.
'Off Topic' was originally created to remove non-computer related topics from 'General Hardware', were it to become subscribers only then I'd be willing to bet we'd see a rapid rise in off topic posting in 'General Hardware' and other tech related forums on AT.
Beyond that, if it were subscribers only I do not believe it would recieve enough traffic to make interesting. It seems relatively unlikely to me that there are enough subscribers to populate 'Off Topic' by themselves.
As it is now, I have the OT Forum set not to display in my customize settings and very seldom visit so it's unlikely to impact me to any extent regardless of what happens.
The best options proposed thus far seem to be-
A) Dividing 'Off Topic' into two sub-sections, one devoted to serious topics and another devoted to neffing or other less serious discussions.
B) Posting a set of guidelines or rules regulating what is/is not appropriate in 'Off Topic'. Even were these guidelines not strictly enforced it may help the users to police themselves.
The alternative of course is to create a policy of stricter moderation of 'Off Topic' that would lead to quicker and harsher penalties for those that choose to nef. I'm not sure the moderators are of sufficient number to adequately handle such a policy however, nor am I confident it would be a desirable solution to the Moderators.
PsychoAndy
Lifer
Ehhh. I posted some suggestions/advice in one of Red Dawn's threads, but i don't want to find it. I honestly don't see why you should change to subscription only for flaming. It happens everywhere, because everyone has their own little opinion and doesn't like someone else, no matter where you are, internet or real life. Except on the internet it's much easier to release anger in the form of flames. If you can't take it, you should watch for what you post. I call it self moderation; lessens the amount of idiots by making sure they don't make dumb mistakes again. I'll post some other suggestions though. These are mostly derived from the SomethingAwful Forums, because it works there.
1.) Have more separate forums from OT. Have a Current Events forum, Flamewar forum, etc. But that's kinda banking away from the whole computer discussion forums, which isn't too good.
2.) More moderation, but like what was said earlier, you might not have the manpower to enforce things.
3.) Make new rules. Like say, "If you have a flamewar in the middle of the thread, both parties get the banhammer", as much as I really don't agree with that rule. Read this for an idea, and ban offenders of your new rules. Might not work though, seeing as at SA, the owner pretty much runs the forums too, and has personal incentive to enforce the rules or to ban anyone. In this case, maybe you mods can put it to a vote.
That's about all you can do. Personally, I think it's ok the way it is. Could use improvement, but suggestions like "Only let subscribers post in OT" is kinda base. I mean, most of the time, they're the ones neffing it up. And if you don't like it, it's America, you aren't forced to read it.
1.) Have more separate forums from OT. Have a Current Events forum, Flamewar forum, etc. But that's kinda banking away from the whole computer discussion forums, which isn't too good.
2.) More moderation, but like what was said earlier, you might not have the manpower to enforce things.
3.) Make new rules. Like say, "If you have a flamewar in the middle of the thread, both parties get the banhammer", as much as I really don't agree with that rule. Read this for an idea, and ban offenders of your new rules. Might not work though, seeing as at SA, the owner pretty much runs the forums too, and has personal incentive to enforce the rules or to ban anyone. In this case, maybe you mods can put it to a vote.
That's about all you can do. Personally, I think it's ok the way it is. Could use improvement, but suggestions like "Only let subscribers post in OT" is kinda base. I mean, most of the time, they're the ones neffing it up. And if you don't like it, it's America, you aren't forced to read it.
Michael
Elite member
I was here before OT split off.
If OT is closed or restricted, there will be more OT posts in the other forums.
These can be locked, and the people posting it banned, but it will never end.
There may or may not be a problem with OT right now, but at least the problem is much less in the other forums.
I would like to note that "Highly technical" was opened up to solve some of the flaming problems from GH.
My proposed solution would be to limit the # of posts per day in OT for non-subscribers and subscribers (subscriber # higher). If you only have 5 posts a day, you're not going to post many "post count ++" posts.
Michael
ps - Red Dawn hasn't changed much in his posting style or even in the insults he uses since I first started posting here. Either ignore him or flame back. His posts about the DC forum here (note my sig for where I stand on this) are no different that hwat he has joked about in the past. He even used to do RC5, he just couldn't compete with the rest of us so DC became another thing for him to be bitter about (along with being old, ugly, and not as smart as most of us here) <grin>.
If OT is closed or restricted, there will be more OT posts in the other forums.
These can be locked, and the people posting it banned, but it will never end.
There may or may not be a problem with OT right now, but at least the problem is much less in the other forums.
I would like to note that "Highly technical" was opened up to solve some of the flaming problems from GH.
My proposed solution would be to limit the # of posts per day in OT for non-subscribers and subscribers (subscriber # higher). If you only have 5 posts a day, you're not going to post many "post count ++" posts.
Michael
ps - Red Dawn hasn't changed much in his posting style or even in the insults he uses since I first started posting here. Either ignore him or flame back. His posts about the DC forum here (note my sig for where I stand on this) are no different that hwat he has joked about in the past. He even used to do RC5, he just couldn't compete with the rest of us so DC became another thing for him to be bitter about (along with being old, ugly, and not as smart as most of us here) <grin>.
montanafan
Diamond Member
I think this would be a good idea, but how about using it as an incentive to post in a more responsible manner first. You could punish someone for neffing by limiting their post allotment or you could start everyone with a limited number of posts and increase it as they prove their postworthiness.
I really don't think limiting OT to subscribers would be a good idea. Several good reasons have already been pointed out:
1) Many of those doing the neffing are subscribers now.
2) Do you really think the chit-chatting neffers wouldn't be able to subscribe. Heck, their parents would pay up just to keep the little kiddies in their rooms and not bothering them.
3) Which brings up the problem of now getting the parents involved when, oh let's say Red, chewed one up and spat him or her out. Mommy would be on here complaining about not paying to have little Kenny abused in that way and writing to the BBBOnline.
4) Have you ever seen how indignant someone can get when you try to limit them in anyway in a service they're paying for?!? I think that alone would exacerbate the flaming and neffing. "I paid for this I can say whatever I want."
5) The OT forum would become even smaller than so many of the others that I've seen out there that are made up of good people, but just too small to keep things interesting.
6) The extrememly high number of hits that the OT forum of AnandTech gets have got to be attractive to advertisers.
7) It would put a lot of OT type discussions in other forums. The original idea of having an OT forum to cut down on that sort of thing in the others has worked very well.
Some other solutions might be to divide OT into Socializing and Serious Discussion forums. I think that most of the members would respect that, offenders threads could easily be moved, and the distinction between who's following the rules and who's not would be much easier for the moderators and everyone who likes to criticize the moderators.
And Ornery's right. The OT community needs to get back to taking a little more responsibility for what goes on there. It's so obvious that some of these people come to OT with the sole purpose of angering people with some inane post. Just don't respond to them. The attention is what they crave. Ignore and them and they'll sit there and cry in front of their monitors about how no one pays any attention to them until they figure it out.
Two thoughts. First, HotDeals is what originally attracted me to the site. I quickly 'justified' subscribing based on the amount of money I saved by just reading the forum. So, I think making that subscriber only may not be a great idea.
Second, if someone takes the whole 'subscriber' only for OT. How about make it just subscribers can post? This way others could read the threads, heck some might subscribe just to be able to get their comment in...
Bill
<begin> { reminiscent mode, voice of replicant Roy Batty | Rutger Hauer Blade Runner }
Long have I existed, and O the Crap I have seen.
Its all about Crap.
Crap information. Crap humor. Crap dignity. Crap humility. Crap intellect.
Yes, even crap "trolling" and "neffing".
Who among us complains of too much crap!?
<reset>
Long have I existed, and O the Quality I have seen.
Its all about Quality.
Quality information. Quality humor. Quality of dignity. Quality of humility. Quality of intellect.
Yes, even Quality of "trolling" and "neffing".
Who among us complains of too much quality!?
<end> { reminiscent mode, replicant Roy Batty}
Is the Crap to Quality ratio different now than when the forum membership was small back in the gloriously golden "good 'ol days" and was there more dignity, and humility?
Lets say that when the forums had 100 members, just 1% or 1, was Crap (and indeed there was at least 1), yet there was only so much Crap that 1 Crapper could Crap 24/7. Thus, the forum seemed better.
Now, however, if 1% of our nearly 100,000 members are Crap that equates to 1,000 Crappers. 1,000 Crappers can Crap quite a Crapload of Crap 24/7, especially if they have been, indeed, by design, condensed into the OT forum.
Even if there are just 20,000 members (duplicates and multiple personalities considered), 1% is 200 Crappers.
Hell, just 10 Crappers Crapping tag-team 24/7 can Crap Craploads, as we know all to well.
The quality is there, as abundant as ever, it is merely obscured by disproportionate Crap.
So how do we Cap the Crap?
Moderating the Crap out of the Crappers has never reduced the overall Crapping, and often has created backlash Crapping: Thus, any moderator-only solution would be ineffective.
Splitting the OT forum into pieces will prove ineffective and be quite problematic as well.
For no matter how the OT forum is split, as Crappy as the Crappers may be, they are not Crappy enough to Crap only on themselves and will seek out non-Crappers to Crap upon.
The only solutions that will work will be those that remove a Crapper's incentives to Crap.
Two Serious Solutions:
1. Do not allow posts in the OT forum to increment ones Post Counter.
--> Crappers seem to have Competitive Post-Count Crapitus, so remove the incentive.
2. Discourage Crapping, or "neffing", or whatever, by implementing a new icon in every post next to the "Subscribe to this thread" icon (in the shape of a trout?) that when clicked will increment a "neff" counter visible only to the moderators, and possibly to include further hidden info, such as, the identity of the reporter, forum, hotness, or whatever.
In this way, a moderator would have an easy(?) way to track/identify "neffs" as reported by "we the empowered members"; and if justified, could PM the Crapper with a warning, or do whatever else they see fit. Also, those who "slap trout" abusively, could be dealt with too.
--> Pushing the limits of Moderation and earning a moderator's warning post or locked thread or ban seems to be a Badge of Crapitus, so deny these badges as often as possible by nipping 'em in the bud before Crappers get too emboldened, and let members have a greater role in moderation (albeit hidden and with no direct feedback). This would not only take some pressure off of the moderator and put it upon ourselves (where it should be), but would incorporate scope of member pressure to help support a Mod's PM, or such, to a "Crapper" ie,
I realize that a fair bit of programming will need to be done to implement this, yet it will be more than worth the effort, for if these two ideas are implemented and we are consistent, relentless, and just in our trout slapping the Crappers, we will create the conditions wherein Crap is not tolerated, KNOWN as not tolerated, and the OT forum will experience renaissance.
Keeping in mind of course: All things in moderation, including Moderation.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." --Charley and The Chocolate Factory
Therein lies the true joy of the OT forum.
Long have I existed, and O the Crap I have seen.
Its all about Crap.
Crap information. Crap humor. Crap dignity. Crap humility. Crap intellect.
Yes, even crap "trolling" and "neffing".
Who among us complains of too much crap!?
<reset>
Long have I existed, and O the Quality I have seen.
Its all about Quality.
Quality information. Quality humor. Quality of dignity. Quality of humility. Quality of intellect.
Yes, even Quality of "trolling" and "neffing".
Who among us complains of too much quality!?
<end> { reminiscent mode, replicant Roy Batty}
Is the Crap to Quality ratio different now than when the forum membership was small back in the gloriously golden "good 'ol days" and was there more dignity, and humility?
Lets say that when the forums had 100 members, just 1% or 1, was Crap (and indeed there was at least 1), yet there was only so much Crap that 1 Crapper could Crap 24/7. Thus, the forum seemed better.
Now, however, if 1% of our nearly 100,000 members are Crap that equates to 1,000 Crappers. 1,000 Crappers can Crap quite a Crapload of Crap 24/7, especially if they have been, indeed, by design, condensed into the OT forum.
Even if there are just 20,000 members (duplicates and multiple personalities considered), 1% is 200 Crappers.
Hell, just 10 Crappers Crapping tag-team 24/7 can Crap Craploads, as we know all to well.
The quality is there, as abundant as ever, it is merely obscured by disproportionate Crap.
So how do we Cap the Crap?
Moderating the Crap out of the Crappers has never reduced the overall Crapping, and often has created backlash Crapping: Thus, any moderator-only solution would be ineffective.
Splitting the OT forum into pieces will prove ineffective and be quite problematic as well.
For no matter how the OT forum is split, as Crappy as the Crappers may be, they are not Crappy enough to Crap only on themselves and will seek out non-Crappers to Crap upon.
The only solutions that will work will be those that remove a Crapper's incentives to Crap.
Two Serious Solutions:
1. Do not allow posts in the OT forum to increment ones Post Counter.
--> Crappers seem to have Competitive Post-Count Crapitus, so remove the incentive.
2. Discourage Crapping, or "neffing", or whatever, by implementing a new icon in every post next to the "Subscribe to this thread" icon (in the shape of a trout?) that when clicked will increment a "neff" counter visible only to the moderators, and possibly to include further hidden info, such as, the identity of the reporter, forum, hotness, or whatever.
In this way, a moderator would have an easy(?) way to track/identify "neffs" as reported by "we the empowered members"; and if justified, could PM the Crapper with a warning, or do whatever else they see fit. Also, those who "slap trout" abusively, could be dealt with too.
--> Pushing the limits of Moderation and earning a moderator's warning post or locked thread or ban seems to be a Badge of Crapitus, so deny these badges as often as possible by nipping 'em in the bud before Crappers get too emboldened, and let members have a greater role in moderation (albeit hidden and with no direct feedback). This would not only take some pressure off of the moderator and put it upon ourselves (where it should be), but would incorporate scope of member pressure to help support a Mod's PM, or such, to a "Crapper" ie,
I realize that a fair bit of programming will need to be done to implement this, yet it will be more than worth the effort, for if these two ideas are implemented and we are consistent, relentless, and just in our trout slapping the Crappers, we will create the conditions wherein Crap is not tolerated, KNOWN as not tolerated, and the OT forum will experience renaissance.
Keeping in mind of course: All things in moderation, including Moderation.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." --Charley and The Chocolate Factory
Therein lies the true joy of the OT forum.
partimegeek
Junior Member
Its why its called off topic, so people can be fools. There's a level of popularity for a forum that starts to ruin the experience. I very rarely post, I love to read. If I don't have anything to add then I don't fill up the post.
One thing that annoys me is when people quote the whole thread and you have to scroll all the way down just to get a little icon. I find that all AT forums are starting to degrade a bit. Charging won't help because idiots will pay anyways and we may lose out on a couple of insightful geniuses.
Rules won't help, just ignoring them will. Too bad we couldn't use a filter or an "ignore" that we have in chat rooms. The only way to deal with punks is to ingore them. Then they'll do something crazy and the god-like mods will smite them from their mountain top.
my 2cents
One thing that annoys me is when people quote the whole thread and you have to scroll all the way down just to get a little icon. I find that all AT forums are starting to degrade a bit. Charging won't help because idiots will pay anyways and we may lose out on a couple of insightful geniuses.
Rules won't help, just ignoring them will. Too bad we couldn't use a filter or an "ignore" that we have in chat rooms. The only way to deal with punks is to ingore them. Then they'll do something crazy and the god-like mods will smite them from their mountain top.
my 2cents
Oh, now there's an idea. Take a great community and flush the conversation and gathering ability of it down the tube and see how large it stays.
While I don't do a lot of posting in the other forums, I do read through them. OT just happens to be a great place for like people to socialize. If you don't like the threads, then don't read them. It's really not that hard.
mechBgon
Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
I'm curious how much of the Forum resources (hardware/bandwidth) are used by OT. Zuni, any comment?
The Moderators' words in the first post indicate another type of resource strain. Trying to enforce rules that would keep OT on an even keel might initially prove to be even more work for them.
My own conception of the AnandTech Forums, right or wrong, is that its main purpose is to be a resource for computer enthusiasts, not a general chat forum. If the OT forum is in fact consuming the bulk of the Forum resources, including moderation, then requiring a Subscriber account to use OT seems reasonable. This would help support the hardware/bandwidth end of the equation. As for the moderation issue... I don't have an answer to that.
To turn that around, I'd gladly pay for a Subscriber account (at the present prices) in order to gain access to all the forums except OT, because it's the computer-related topics that bring me here. In fact, that's approximately what I did, since the non-subscriber forum was getting aggravatingly slow. Very pleased with my purchase, by the way.
As for the little jab at the DC crew... well, might want to ask Anand before nuking DC, since he's a member of the Team as well. 😉
What does PNG stand for, anyway? Potent Neffing Gurus? 😕 Pimply Nerd Guys/Gals? :Q
The Moderators' words in the first post indicate another type of resource strain. Trying to enforce rules that would keep OT on an even keel might initially prove to be even more work for them.
My own conception of the AnandTech Forums, right or wrong, is that its main purpose is to be a resource for computer enthusiasts, not a general chat forum. If the OT forum is in fact consuming the bulk of the Forum resources, including moderation, then requiring a Subscriber account to use OT seems reasonable. This would help support the hardware/bandwidth end of the equation. As for the moderation issue... I don't have an answer to that.
To turn that around, I'd gladly pay for a Subscriber account (at the present prices) in order to gain access to all the forums except OT, because it's the computer-related topics that bring me here. In fact, that's approximately what I did, since the non-subscriber forum was getting aggravatingly slow. Very pleased with my purchase, by the way.
As for the little jab at the DC crew... well, might want to ask Anand before nuking DC, since he's a member of the Team as well. 😉
What does PNG stand for, anyway? Potent Neffing Gurus? 😕 Pimply Nerd Guys/Gals? :Q
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