Warning: Nvidia GPUs do not play well with others

[HurleyBird]

I just received my GTX 980 today and replaced my 7970, part of my decision was due to the great perf/watt but partly I just wanted to escape the hell that was AMD's drivers. I run a fairly unique setup: 3 1920*1200 screens in surround, a rift, and an HDMI audio device (Smyth Realiser) attached to the HDMI output from the integrated graphics from my 4770K.

Now, the reason I run HDMI audio from the Intel graphics is because the Intel driver is actually good while the AMD and Nvidia drivers are a crime against their users. Running HDMI audio from a Radeon at the same time as three other screens requires an infuriating amount of trial and error where it's not even possible to create reproducible steps that you can follow for the next time -- believe me, I've tried -- but when you get it up and running it tends to last for quite awhile until it, randomly of course, decides to give you the finger and disappear entirely. Nvidia to their benefit seems to require much less tinkering to get working but is the only vendor that defaults to stereo and the lowest frequency/bitrate, which really sucks when you need 4/5/7 channel output. Intel's for the most part just works, although occasionally it forgets your settings.

Now, I was hoping that switching over to Nvidia would help me escape the hang-on-wake bug and various multi-monitor annoyances that plagued me on the AMD side of things. Unfortunately, the issues I've ran into are so much worse than anything that I've experienced on Radeon that I'm profoundly regretting my purchase.

While AMD and Intel display controllers seem to be able to work side-by-side just fine, the same cannot at all be said in regards to Nvidia and Intel. In the words of Nvidia customer support:

"When NVIDIA card in use then you cannot take the advantage of audio or video from Intel card."

However, this is not exactly true and understates the severity of the issues that crop up.

When I first received my GTX 980 the first thing that I did was uninstall the Catalyst drivers. Upon installing the Nvidia card and drivers I noticed that the computer was not detecting any displays connected to Intel integrated outputs. After reinstalling the Intel drivers and booting up my computer, I'm greeted by a blank screen after windows loads. I go into safe mode and uninstall the Intel display drivers, reboot.... still a black screen. Uninstall the Geforce drivers and woila! Successful boot into windows.

After a lot of trial and error I discover that I actually can run an HDMI DAC out of the Intel integrated graphics at the same time as I'm using the Geforce, but the steps are somewhat convoluted. I need to install the Geforce drivers (Intel drivers do not need to be installed/uninstalled in this process, thankfully), boot up with the HDMI DAC still attached to the Intel HDMI output, but powered off, and then power on the HDMI DAC after which the Geforce drivers will crash, reload (hopefully, half the time I'm greeted by a blank screen and need to start the process over), and somehow coexist with the Intel ones at that point. If I shut down or restart the computer, guess what, blank screen again on start up and the Nvidia drivers need to be uninstalled/reinstalled (simply installing them again without first uninstalling does not seem to work). So, my options are to either never shut off my computer, go through this aggravating process (I'm even skipping some minor steps IRT setting up 3-monitor surround and such), or use Nvidia's crappy HDMI audio driver that only works with two channels and continuously need to swap the Oculus Rift in and out.

Update: Waking from sleep mode also causes the blank screen issue and subsequent need to uninstall the Nvidia drivers from safe mode.

Update 2: And now trying to follow the steps I used previously has resulted in Windows failing to boot at all.

This is literally ten times worse than all of the issues I've experienced with AMD's drivers COMBINED. Worse yet, I doubt Nvidia even [cares] as their philosophy seems to be to distance themselves, rather than cooperate with, other hardware vendors. A cursory glance on the internet shows that this blank screen issue has been going on since 2012. 2012!

Let this be a warning, if for any reason you're thinking about getting an Nvidia card but need to use it in conjunction with another display controller, or if you need HDMI audio, DON'T. Buy AMD instead.

Update 3: So far, this seems to be resolved in driver version 334.60

Profanity isn't allowed in the technical forums.
-- stahlhart

 

[f1sherman]

buy AMD so that

Running HDMI audio from a Radeon at the same time as three other screens requires an infuriating amount of trial and error where it's not even possible to create reproducible steps

unsupported feature is unsupported

Either way, thanks for the post. I carefully read all of it

 

[Silverforce11]

Generally the further you get away from the mainstream setup, the more problems you run into, this is true for any hardware brand.

When I was mining on my Radeons, I would default to using the Intel HD graphics to drive my monitor so I could still do work with the GPUs at 100% load, it actually works really well which was a pleasant surprise!

 

[HurleyBird]

Generally the further you get away from the mainstream setup, the more problems you run into, this is true for any hardware brand.

True, and I'm not saying that AMD's support is good while Nvidia's is bad. AMD is bad, but Nvidia is downright abysmal.

When I was mining on my Radeons, I would default to using the Intel HD graphics to drive my monitor so I could still do work with the GPUs at 100% load, it actually works really well which was a pleasant surprise!

If only the same thing could be said for Nvidia. It makes sense though... AMD as a company is pretty cooperative with others. Nvidia of course is the exact opposite -- almost apple-esque. I remember being dissapointed when they blocked the ability to use a Geforce card for PhysX if another vendor was used for rendering. No wonder AMD put in the development time to minimize compatibility issues with other vendors while Nvidia doesn't seem to give a ****.

 

[tollingalong]

Personally, I will never use Nvidia GPUs for a media server or the like. I've only had bad experiences. AMD drivers have been ok for me. I haven't tried an Intel one yet but I should.

Not only were the comments you made off topic they were a mod call out. Enjoy a a few days off.

TonyH
AnandTech Administrator

 

[Silverforce11]

@f1sherman For PC, one of its feature is the flexibility of hardware/software setups. Thus its imperative that any hardware vendor should focus on making their hardware more compatible.

I can see switching to iGPU has a very useful feature for any GPU, you could be using your NV GPU to fold@home, SETI, other distributed computing or even do CUDA related work, switching to the Intel graphics will ensure you have a responsive system that's pleasant to use. It's actually quite stupid to lock out the iGPU, since its hardware you paid for, at least you should be able to benefit from it when you most need it.

 

[f1sherman]

Gotta be careful mentioning Nvidia negatives in this forum though:
links deleted

haha... what

@f1sherman For PC, one of its feature is the flexibility of hardware/software setups. Thus its imperative that any hardware vendor should focus on making their hardware more compatible.

I can see switching to iGPU has a very useful feature for any GPU, you could be using your NV GPU to fold@home, SETI, other distributed computing or even do CUDA related work, switching to the Intel graphics will ensure you have a responsive system that's pleasant to use. It's actually quite stupid to lock out the iGPU, since its hardware you paid for, at least you should be able to benefit from it when you most need it.

I'd certainly count "flexibility" or running unsupported feature as an added bonus.
But I'm more concerned about supported feature working as intended.
Other than that - if it works, it works, great. If not, oh well...

 

[f1sherman]

Like HDMI audio being subpar. That's a real issue here.
And hard to excuse

 

[Silverforce11]

I'd certainly count "flexibility" or running unsupported feature as an added bonus.
But I'm more concerned about supported feature working as intended.
Other than that - if it works, it works, great. If not, oh well...

I dunno why you would think like that.

You pay them good $$ over the years, you should expect better. Not "Oh well...".

Maybe one day you may need to run a few monitors and have HDMI out for a nice sound setup too, or as I've said, put your GPUs to full load doing some work while you run your PC off the iGPU smoothly. Either way, these companies are not a charity and you don't owe them anything, so expect better.

 

[f1sherman]

So I should hunt them down, because 2nd party (Intel's) audio doesn't play nice/work?

Instead because of their own HDMI audio is awful?
Again, this is the real issue here ^^

 

[DominionSeraph]

I bought a motorcycle and then found that I can't use it at the same time as my car. I blame Suzuki for putting the seat on the bike.


You should know better that trolling is not permitted here and is against the forum rules. Stop it now.

-Moderator Rvenger

 

[BrightCandle]

The HDMI sound output on both vendors is a bit of a disaster zone, a lot of people have serious problems on both vendors. Frankly I think you are better off avoiding it altogether and using analogue sound output from the onboard sound chip or the sound card or perhaps digital out to a receiver. What you are doing is kind of weird so I think you should work out how to rearrange the sound output so you don't have to use the iGPU.

 

[Grooveriding]

nvidia's HDMI audio drivers have always been garbage. Often a source of issues and not worth installing unless you absolutely need them.

 

[HurleyBird]

The HDMI sound output on both vendors is a bit of a disaster zone, a lot of people have serious problems on both vendors. Frankly I think you are better off avoiding it altogether and using analogue sound output from the onboard sound chip or the sound card or perhaps digital out to a receiver. What you are doing is kind of weird so I think you should work out how to rearrange the sound output so you don't have to use the iGPU.

No. The HDMI DSP/DAC that I'm using is worth more than the rest of my computer components put together.

 

[Silverforce11]

I bought a motorcycle and then found that I can't use it at the same time as my car.

That is a pretty big concern. If I bought a motorbike and it dies everytime I use my car, that would be utterly stupid.

Because often, my car would be used by my wife, and I would like to be able use my motorbike at the same time, instead of it sitting in the garage being useless because THE MAN SAID SO.

Welcome to the realworld and not fanworld.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That is a pretty big concern. If I bought a motorbike and it dies everytime I use my car, that would be utterly stupid.

Welcome to the realworld and not fanworld.

Eventually, you just learn to ignore the flippant fanboy trollposts on this forum.

 

[digitaldurandal]

I would suggest trying a fresh installation of Windows now that you have the steps figured out. Whenever you switch from one camp to the other there are often issues. With your setup that may be even more so which sucks. I know how it is to spend a lot of money hoping to solve an issue and it leads to a wasted day setting up something to run half baked.

Could you trade your HDMI DAC setup for an optical solution and run a sound card to avoid this? Obviously not ideal.. but maybe worth it?

 

[bystander36]

The reality is, you are doing something that is not supported by either company. Calling their support bad on something that isn't supported does not make sense to me. You aren't supposed to be able to do it.

I'd be curious if using a professional card would have the same limitations.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The reality is, you are doing something that is not supported by either company. Calling their support bad on something that isn't supported does not make sense to me. You aren't supposed to be able to do it.

I'd be curious if using a professional card would have the same limitations.

I don't get why using multiple video cards / devices, and their respective HDMI audio outputs, is somehow "unsupported"? The OS supports multiple different video device drivers at the same time. If they conflict, then that's something for the ISVs to work out. The fact that NV has a "my way or the highway" sort of attitude with their support doesn't help. As mentioned, AMD drivers tend to "play well with others" a lot better.

 

[bystander36]

I don't get why using multiple video cards / devices, and their respective HDMI audio outputs, is somehow "unsupported"? The OS supports multiple different video device drivers at the same time. If they conflict, then that's something for the ISVs to work out. The fact that NV has a "my way or the highway" sort of attitude with their support doesn't help. As mentioned, AMD drivers tend to "play well with others" a lot better.

As the OP mentioned, he contacted both vendors, and both said they do not support it.

Why they choose not to support it is debatable, but if they say it is not supported, then I don't know how you can go around complaining about how bad it is supported.

 

[HurleyBird]

The reality is, you are doing something that is not supported by either company. Calling their support bad on something that isn't supported does not make sense to me. You aren't supposed to be able to do it.

1. Even if AMD doesn't list it as a feature (as far as I can tell, anway) AMD cards work pretty much flawlessly alongside Intel display controllers. Whether or not this a coincidence, only someone who works for AMD could say. That said, I'm sceptical that kind of compatibility is a coincidence. Chances are AMD put some man hours in to make these kinds of scenarios work.

2. Regardless of anything else, anyone who wants to use this kind of configuration or even someone who wants or needs decent HDMI audio support will benefit from my experience. This kind of information is actually very hard to find on the web.

3. Even if Nvidia has no intention of optimizing their drivers to work correctly alongside Intel's, the way their drivers fail in these scenarios is not at all elegant. Being greeted by a blank screen is bad enough, but still being greeted by that same blank screen after disconnecting all of the Intel display outputs and uninstalling the Intel display driver is far worse. If the issue is that Nvidia's drivers don't play nice with Intel's, why does the problem persist after removing Intel from the equation? Seems like the problem may run a bit deeper. One shouldn't need to go into safe mode and uninstall Nvidia's drivers just to get back to desktop.

 

[HurleyBird]

As the OP mentioned, he contacted both vendors, and both said they do not support it.

Where did you get that? I don't think I even mentioned talking to Intel, but I did. The Intel rep I talked to saw no reason both display controllers couldn't work together. He was querying a BIOS issue instead.

So I should hunt them down, because 2nd party (Intel's) audio doesn't play nice/work?

Instead because of their own HDMI audio is awful?
Again, this is the real issue here ^^

It's not Intel's or AMD's drivers that aren't playing nice with others, it's Nvidia's and only Nvidia's. If either AMD or Intel had an issue running alongside another vendor's display controller they wouldn't work so flawlessly together in the first place. Also, the persistent blank screen on startup issue that you get when trying to use both Intel and Nvidia display controllers together only goes away when you uninstall Nvidia's drivers, if you uninstall Intel's it persists. All of this points to the issue being on Nvidia's end, NOT Intel's or anyone else's.

Nvidia's HDMI audio being awful is of course also an issue. That said, it is somewhat interconnected as the easiest fix on the user's side -- using HDMI audio from a vendor with a superior implementation -- is pretty much out of the question.

 

[bystander36]

Where did you get that? I don't think I even mentioned talking to Intel, but I did. The Intel rep I talked to saw no reason both display controllers couldn't work together. He was querying a BIOS issue instead.

Sorry, I must have seen someone elses mention of it not being supported.

Anyways, trying to force something to work that is not supported does tend to cause problems. I'm not sure why you think they owe you a smooth experience with something not supported.

The real question is, what is the best solution for what you wish to do?

 

[HurleyBird]

Anyways, trying to force something to work that is not supported does tend to cause problems. I'm not sure why you think they owe you a smooth experience with something not supported.

Not causing instability or bugs with other hardware is not a feature to be supported or not supported, it's one of the fundamental tenants of designing proper PC hardware. Intel's display controllers are not some kind of niche add-on that you never see -- they're literally the most used display controllers on the market.

 

[DominionSeraph]

3. Even if Nvidia has no intention of optimizing their drivers to work correctly alongside Intel's, the way their drivers fail in these scenarios is not at all elegant. Being greeted by a blank screen is bad enough, but still being greeted by that same blank screen after disconnecting all of the Intel display outputs and uninstalling the Intel display driver is far worse. If the issue is that Nvidia's drivers don't play nice with Intel's, why does the problem persist after removing Intel from the equation? Seems like the problem may run a bit deeper. One shouldn't need to go into safe mode and uninstall Nvidia's drivers just to get back to desktop.

Tens of millions of people have gotten their Nvidia cards to work on computers with Intel and AMD integrated graphics without blankscreening.
PEBCAK