**Warcrow's World of Warcraft Review**

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Malladine
IMO the game offers little in the way of innovation. World of Warcraft is uninspired, generic and repetitive. I'm sure it will do quite well

What are you comparing WoW to that is so non-repetitive and unique?

UO 97-00

Wasn't thinking of that directly, but true enough. The original UO had a whole lot going for it...but I won't get into that here

 

[Dman877]

Firingsquad put it perfectly imo: WoW is nothing but cleverly concealed random number generation (or something to that effect). We haven't seen any real innovation in mmp's since the genre's genesis, just slow evolution.

Personally, I'm waiting for a numberless and skill-based mmp. Number's are a crutch of the paper/pen role-playing days. With high speed internet connections as prevalent as they are, we should be able to manually aim our attacks and parries, not to mention using button combinations for spells and such. "Attack mode" just seems so lame to me as an fps gamer... imagine an mmp where you control your fighter from 1st person and actually have to master button combinations to do special attacks and aim all of your attacks with the mouse... then instead of doing X damage, you actually see a whole ripped in his armor and blood come out...

I know realism isn't what WoW is going for but the game just seems so generic to me, they took bits and pieces of every other mmp and turned them into a big merry gofer-run /shrug.

 

[CVSiN]

Exactly why its the best one out there to date.. they took the good parts from all the other games..

as for the FPS/MMROPG no thanks
im having plenty of fun trying to master the WoW way of playing a rogue...
its not just autoattack.. you do that and you are soo dead its not even funny...
its about timing combos and knowing which combo to use...
best rogue system ive ever seen...

the warrior is pretty cool to similar system where you have to build rage points to use abilites..

EQ2 has a similar system but the entire party builds hero points and can call upon huge combos and abilities as an entire group or they can give the points earned so that a tank or a healer or a caster can do soemthing in a fight truely powerful...

pretty neat..

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: Dman877
Firingsquad put it perfectly imo: WoW is nothing but cleverly concealed random number generation (or something to that effect). We haven't seen any real innovation in mmp's since the genre's genesis, just slow evolution.

Personally, I'm waiting for a numberless and skill-based mmp. Number's are a crutch of the paper/pen role-playing days. With high speed internet connections as prevalent as they are, we should be able to manually aim our attacks and parries, not to mention using button combinations for spells and such. "Attack mode" just seems so lame to me as an fps gamer... imagine an mmp where you control your fighter from 1st person and actually have to master button combinations to do special attacks and aim all of your attacks with the mouse... then instead of doing X damage, you actually see a whole ripped in his armor and blood come out...

I know realism isn't what WoW is going for but the game just seems so generic to me, they took bits and pieces of every other mmp and turned them into a big merry gofer-run /shrug.

heh, funny. I agree that skill based is where it's at. Numberless sounds good too. You have to remember though that many customers (an important group to the profit-centric mmo genre) are not (read nowhere near) as capable as you or I with FPS gaming. This kind of manual, so-called twitch gameplay certainly appeals to us, but to them, of whom my wife is one, it's a serious detractor. To use her as a guide: I can see her wanting to jump in if it's done right, as she does play DoTA which requires some fast mouse movements, but if it isn't the game will be a financial flop. The appeal to these games is that everyone, no matter their gaming skillz, can pick it up and compete. This is an issue with the genre. There has to be a way to cater to both fps gamers and gamers like my wife, a middle ground so to speak.

CVSiN did ya read my last long post? I'd appreciate your input.

 

[everman]

I played it as well, but as a long time mmo player I really didn't see anything revolutionary. It is however nicely polished. There are lots of quests, but most of it is just go and kill x number of y. The graphics are wonderful. I say this because it manages to look good while performing great on my mid range system at 1280x1024.

Nice variety in races and classes. Some of the areas I saw were really nicely done. This game will be very successful imo. I just may try it if PvP is fun, because I think that is the end game right?

For now I will wait on EQ2 and hope for the beta. It does have one revolutionary point: ALL NPCs actually talk, which is pretty cool. But certainly not enough to carry it.

 

[warcrow]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
good post warcrow.

:beer:

 

[EvanB]

You guys shouldn't judge too much of the game from what you saw in the stress test. It was too crowded, first of all, and no one experienced the high level content properly. The low level content is alright, but as you get into the game it becomes much better. Dying is a big problem in instances if you don't have someone to ressurect you and group strategy becomes much more important as you move forward. I've enjoyed levels 40-55 more than all the other levels I have experienced. Give it a chance and you may find yourself addicted.

 

[warcrow]

Originally posted by: EvanB
You guys shouldn't judge too much of the game from what you saw in the stress test. It was too crowded, first of all, and no one experienced the high level content properly. The low level content is alright, but as you get into the game it becomes much better. Dying is a big problem in instances if you don't have someone to ressurect you and group strategy becomes much more important as you move forward. I've enjoyed levels 40-55 more than all the other levels I have experienced. Give it a chance and you may find yourself addicted.

Its funny you say that becuase I never thought it was over crowded.

Also, one point I forgot to bring up was with Asherons Call 2. This MMO had what they called "live events" where the developers would play as hordes of monsters, and rush-attack some towns. Everone would group together and battle them. It was pretty cool, I really enjoyed it. Also, Turbine released a huge package every month with new content and additions to the story. They would also address issue (technical/balance) as well, so it was different and there was always new stuff coming into the game. I was hope'n Blizzard would follow this model.

 

[EvanB]

From what I heard, the human area especially was overcrowded.

Blizzard does plan "World Events" that are like the ones you described. One such site will be in the middle of Duskwood and at the arena in Stranglethorn Vale. I don't really know what they plan to do with them, but they said they are definitely in the works.

 

[Jigglelicious]

If its one thing WoW has, its mass-market appeal. They took the high points of all MMO's before it, and combined it into a very polished game centered around a popular universe (Warcraft). Its an easy game to pick up and play, without requiring a huge time investment to get anywhere in game. And this is all a lot of people ever wanted from WoW. However, that doesn't mean its anywhere even close to a "roleplaying game". I've noticed an alarming trend as these new MMO's take away more and more interactivity from players, speed up gameplay, reduce downtime, "protect" players from each other by the use of instanced dungeons, and call it new and revolutionary. At what expensive? Soon players won't be able to even speak to each other anymore due to the worry that players are "ruining" the experience for each other. Actually, I think this is already the case with WoW - players on opposite teams can't communicate with each other at all (at least, this is what was announced many months ago, perhaps it was changed). I can't even begin to imagine all the roleplay possibilities down the drain simply because good and evil can't communicate, and are limited to mindless slaughter.

All in all, WoW felt very generic and repetitive, although I have to admit the graphical direction they took is simply gorgeous. But players seemed even less communicative and social in WoW than any online game i've played recently. Sure, I had no problems finding a group. But getting that group to talk was like pulling teeth. Their focus was on monster bashing and nothing else. Maybe when the game is actually released things will be different (the stress test was short), but I won't set my hopes too high. Why does it seem like these new games are taking steps backwards compared to more ancient MMO's like UO and of course, MUD's? I'm not even asking for a 100% dynamic world which changes with every little quest you do. But a game where players can sit back and "smell the roses", and actually take on a role and live in a different world would be nice, instead of just mindless killing, leveling, and number crunching.

 

[Andvari]

Originally posted by: Malladine
<Just had an idea: how about a character moving slower when injured? Limping? Hit boxes so if my arm is hurt it hangs at my side useless (until healed of course). Healing can still be 100% effective and a character wouldn't be disabled long enough to make it frustrating for the player but wouldn't you agree that this adds a lot to a character, to the character of the game?>

That would be cool, but again with the resources. Just adding facial movements to /emotes in EQ bumped up the RAM requirement considerably. You go to a zone where 100 people are all gathered around and they start doing emotes, lag's gonna go through the roof. Same with what you suggested there. If the computer had to compensate for everybody's different injuries and render the changes as they occured, World of Warcraft would be World of Lag.

Not saying your ideas are bad, quite the contrary. They just can't or won't be implemented any time soon.

 

[Andvari]

Originally posted by: Jigglelicious
players on opposite teams can't communicate with each other at all (at least, this is what was announced many months ago, perhaps it was changed). I can't even begin to imagine all the roleplay possibilities down the drain simply because good and evil can't communicate, and are limited to mindless slaughter.

You can't initially. If you learn a common tongue, you can. I think you can whisper to opposite teams from the get-go, but I'm not sure about that part.

Either way I like the way things are being handled. I think it would be cool if in a later expansion they allow for some things they don't know, like guilds comprising of Alliance and Horde. Obviously this would be due to some major plot-line change, like they had to sign a peace treaty or something for some reason.

Blizzard's tellin the story, we just need to sit back and enjoy the ride.

Gameplay is where we can gripe if we wanna.

 

[warcrow]

Originally posted by: Andvari

Originally posted by: Malladine

Originally posted by: warcrow
<Just had an idea: how about a character moving slower when injured? Limping? Hit boxes so if my arm is hurt it hangs at my side useless (until healed of course). Healing can still be 100% effective and a character wouldn't be disabled long enough to make it frustrating for the player but wouldn't you agree that this adds a lot to a character, to the character of the game?>

That would be cool, but again with the resources. Just adding facial movements to /emotes in EQ bumped up the RAM requirement considerably. You go to a zone where 100 people are all gathered around and they start doing emotes, lag's gonna go through the roof. Same with what you suggested there. If the computer had to compensate for everybody's different injuries and render the changes as they occured, World of Warcraft would be World of Lag.

Not saying your ideas are bad, quite the contrary. They just can't or won't be implemented any time soon.

I didnt say or type that. Malladine said that...scroll up.

 

[Andvari]

^ Yeah I know he typed it, sorry about that. That's weird. I clicked quote on his post, and I know I didn't edit the quote tag, so I don't know how your name got in there heh.

I'll edit that.

 

[Dman877]

Originally posted by: Malladine

Originally posted by: Dman877
Firingsquad put it perfectly imo: WoW is nothing but cleverly concealed random number generation (or something to that effect). We haven't seen any real innovation in mmp's since the genre's genesis, just slow evolution.

Personally, I'm waiting for a numberless and skill-based mmp. Number's are a crutch of the paper/pen role-playing days. With high speed internet connections as prevalent as they are, we should be able to manually aim our attacks and parries, not to mention using button combinations for spells and such. "Attack mode" just seems so lame to me as an fps gamer... imagine an mmp where you control your fighter from 1st person and actually have to master button combinations to do special attacks and aim all of your attacks with the mouse... then instead of doing X damage, you actually see a whole ripped in his armor and blood come out...

I know realism isn't what WoW is going for but the game just seems so generic to me, they took bits and pieces of every other mmp and turned them into a big merry gofer-run /shrug.

heh, funny. I agree that skill based is where it's at. Numberless sounds good too. You have to remember though that many customers (an important group to the profit-centric mmo genre) are not (read nowhere near) as capable as you or I with FPS gaming. This kind of manual, so-called twitch gameplay certainly appeals to us, but to them, of whom my wife is one, it's a serious detractor. To use her as a guide: I can see her wanting to jump in if it's done right, as she does play DoTA which requires some fast mouse movements, but if it isn't the game will be a financial flop. The appeal to these games is that everyone, no matter their gaming skillz, can pick it up and compete. This is an issue with the genre. There has to be a way to cater to both fps gamers and gamers like my wife, a middle ground so to speak.

CVSiN did ya read my last long post? I'd appreciate your input.

I know, it's all about ringing the most money out of the most people. However, I don't think it would be too far fetched to have one server (out of the 50ish I imagine WoW will need) that is designated high speed connection with a reworked combat/spell system, maybe they could use the D3 or Far Cry engine for it too .

 

[skace]

So much to reply to, probably not even worth it. First of all, there won't be a numberless mmorpg until 1000 people can play on a server with 30ms latency. Are you telling me the bandwidth is there? I highly doubt it. Did you try raiding in EQ, warring in Shadowbane, RVR in WoW? MOST players in mmorpgs hit latency issues regardless if you realize they are there or not. In fact, the blatant disregard for latency issues in some of these posts lead me to believe half of you don't even play mmorpgs. The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer. Every axe / sword swung or magic spell cast would have to have trajectory and hitbox calculations.

In regards to WoW communication. As an undead, I started with the common language learned, I am not sure if this was just for Stress Test or what not but it allowed me to talk to humans. Basically, you can't send private tells to humans (for whatever reasons) but if you are within the same zone as them, you can switch to common language and yell at them. By default, it sets you to orcish for the undead. I communicated just as much with people in WoW as I did in EQ, maybe more so. The difference was in down time, there is less time in WoW to sit around shooting sh!t about politics and real life. I don't think that is a bad thing, I mean thats why their is mIRC. WoW's minimal downtime makes it much easier for someone to stay in character, should they choose to. You spend more time talking about quests and the game than you do talking about what school you go to, what age you are irl, or where you live.

While, I agree with you Jiggle, in that WoW is a pretty easy game to play. I think it if you took PVP out of UO that it was a very easy game to play. What I mean by that is that WoW's difficulty will come from its PVP servers. And as far as I know, anyone who is anybody will be playing on the PVP servers. Although, I do not see how WoW took away interactivity. Instanced dungeons don't protect players, they allow for a more involved dungeon experience. They allow each party to battle the boss and all the minibosses. They allow for special NPCs to be present in the dungeon and spawned when you get to them. They allow for everything that lower guk would never allow for in EQ. You know, lower guk, the dungeon where newbie level 10 rogues would be sitting in random rooms of the dungeon.


Warcrow, of course WoW will have world events. AC2 wasn't the first to have a world event, nearly every mmorpg in existence has had them.

Oh and Malladine, I am not offended, I just think some of your suggestions were stupid. Please tell me what bias I hold? I've played more mmorpgs than you've probably played video games. I don't hold any bias towards WoW, I havn't even pre-ordered it yet. If something else comes out better, you can be damn sure I am getting it instead.

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
UO 97-00

What GM Lumberjack would argue with that? But the fact is, UXO got scrapped. I don't see anything even remotely close to a 3d UO coming out anytime soon. And that goes double for muds. I know somoene brought up muds and asked why mmorpgs are going backwards. Mmorpgs arn't going backwards, they are building up to muds. It is very easy to implement something in text as compared to graphically implementing it. That is why a mud can have a thousand items and emotions. It can have a world bigger than all the mmorpgs combined. It can have a million different skills. Because they are just text and it takes 1/5000th of the developement time. (<- 3x Realms of Despair Avatar)

 

[Malladine]

Originally posted by: skace
Please tell me what bias I hold? I've played more mmorpgs than you've probably played video games.

lol, i'm done reading your posts

thx to the rest of ya for some interesting conversation

 

[warcrow]

"The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer."

Ok, hold it right there. Did you just say that? Do you know what a cluster is? Loadbalancers? If you do, and understand how these devices work along with VIPs, then you know that you can add an infinite amount of machines to that cluster, and parse 1000, 100, or even 10 users to each system. You don't need one Cray. You usually make friendly &amp; intelligent comments, so I'll let this one pass skace.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: warcrow
"The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer."

Ok, hold it right there. Did you just say that? Do you know what a cluster is? Loadbalancers? If you do, and understand how these devices work along with VIPs, then you know that you can add an infinite amount of machines to that cluster, and parse 1000, 100, or even 10 users to each system. You don't need one Cray. You usually make friendly &amp; intelligent comments, so I'll let this one pass skace.

No I have no idea what a cluster is. Please tell me. Does that make it any more likely? Do you really know how many servers Everquest has, now lets try to figure out what doom3 style hitbox computation would require. Now lets see how many servers that would require. Are you footing the bill for this? You didn't make my argument any less intelligent and I'm not sure what you are letting pass.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Malladine

Originally posted by: skace
Please tell me what bias I hold? I've played more mmorpgs than you've probably played video games.

lol, i'm done reading your posts

thx to the rest of ya for some interesting conversation

Good response, shows the extent of your knowledge. Run away, flee into the hills where you can have your numberless mmorpg filled with player-made content and giant dancing fairies that sing you to sleep.

You know what you remind me of? Horizons. They promised the world and delivered sh!t. Were you even around to read everything Horizons promised? Mobs were going to reproduce instead of spawn. Characters were going to come into the world as children of other gamers. Every item was going to be player made. Everything would be constructable and destructable. Big pipe dream that was, eh?

 

[warcrow]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: warcrow
"The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer."

Ok, hold it right there. Did you just say that? Do you know what a cluster is? Loadbalancers? If you do, and understand how these devices work along with VIPs, then you know that you can add an infinite amount of machines to that cluster, and parse 1000, 100, or even 10 users to each system. You don't need one Cray. You usually make friendly &amp; intelligent comments, so I'll let this one pass skace.

No I have no idea what a cluster is. Please tell me. Does that make it any more likely? Do you really know how many servers Everquest has, now lets try to figure out what doom3 style hitbox computation would require. Now lets see how many servers that would require. Are you footing the bill for this? You didn't make my argument any less intelligent and I'm not sure what you are letting pass.

Hrm, ok since you want to play that game. It doesnt matter who is footing the bill, or how much money it cost. It doesnt matter that I don't have the money for this (not sure where you were going there with that argument). What matters is what you said and let me quote ya again since you didnt seem to read it yourself, "The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer."

Particularly what I've bolded is complete bullsh!t. With a clustered arcitecture, there is an infinite amount of processing power, memory, and what ever else is needed teechnically to acheive this as long as its supplied with the proper bandwidth (which also is readily available). So, your argument is moot, null and void. Oh, and stop hijacking my thread with your dumba$$ arguments.

 

[skace]

My infrastructure comment was in regards to network bandwidth/latency across the entire country to handle 30ms to every player.

Edit: oh and thanks for calling me a dumbass for absolutely no reason. I'd also like to know how I hijacked a thread about WoW by replying to other peoples comments. WTF. Weird how I become the bad guy when someone else posts a bunch of retarded comments and I refute them.

 

[warcrow]

Originally posted by: skace
My infrastructure comment was in regards to network bandwidth/latency across the entire country to handle 30ms to every player.

Edit: oh and thanks for calling me a dumbass for absolutely no reason. I'd also like to know how I hijacked a thread about WoW by replying to other peoples comments. WTF. Weird how I become the bad guy when someone else posts a bunch of retarded comments and I refute them.

Of cooooourse everything is everyone elses problem! You never do anything wrong. This is, now, two people you've now made laugh at you in a single bound in this thread. You really know how to make friends don't ya.


Anywho, time for me to go home to the fiancee, Enjoy! :beer:

 

[CVSiN]

Originally posted by: Andvari

Originally posted by: Jigglelicious
players on opposite teams can't communicate with each other at all (at least, this is what was announced many months ago, perhaps it was changed). I can't even begin to imagine all the roleplay possibilities down the drain simply because good and evil can't communicate, and are limited to mindless slaughter.

You can't initially. If you learn a common tongue, you can. I think you can whisper to opposite teams from the get-go, but I'm not sure about that part.

Either way I like the way things are being handled. I think it would be cool if in a later expansion they allow for some things they don't know, like guilds comprising of Alliance and Horde. Obviously this would be due to some major plot-line change, like they had to sign a peace treaty or something for some reason.

Blizzard's tellin the story, we just need to sit back and enjoy the ride.

Gameplay is where we can gripe if we wanna.

No you cannot talk to opposite realm at all...
this gaem was built as a PVP game..
they follawed DAOCs lead and are not allowing communication at all between horde and alliance..
and what you are discribing as mindless monster grinding is not happening on beta...
this must have been a side result of the max levels get a beta slot. peeps were all in grind or else mode...

Like Ive said before my max char from Alpha till now is still an L35..
i have yet to reach max level on any char...
my latest creation is an L25 Hunter thats slowly leveling up..
I play on average 20+ hours a week and its not too fast or too slow for me...
feels just about right..

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: warcrow

Originally posted by: skace
My infrastructure comment was in regards to network bandwidth/latency across the entire country to handle 30ms to every player.

Edit: oh and thanks for calling me a dumbass for absolutely no reason. I'd also like to know how I hijacked a thread about WoW by replying to other peoples comments. WTF. Weird how I become the bad guy when someone else posts a bunch of retarded comments and I refute them.

Of cooooourse everything is everyone elses problem! You never do anything wrong. This is, now, two people you've now made laugh at you in a single bound in this thread. You really know how to make friends don't ya.


Anywho, time for me to go home to the fiancee, Enjoy! :beer:

I see, so you bold 2 lines of mine in hopes of twisting the wording. I correct you. You make fun of me and leave. How does that make me the one in the wrong? Please explain, Warcrow as I'd love to hear it.