**Warcrow's World of Warcraft Review**

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Dman877

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2004
2,707
0
0
Originally posted by: skace
So much to reply to, probably not even worth it. First of all, there won't be a numberless mmorpg until 1000 people can play on a server with 30ms latency. Are you telling me the bandwidth is there? I highly doubt it. Did you try raiding in EQ, warring in Shadowbane, RVR in WoW? MOST players in mmorpgs hit latency issues regardless if you realize they are there or not. In fact, the blatant disregard for latency issues in some of these posts lead me to believe half of you don't even play mmorpgs. The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer. Every axe / sword swung or magic spell cast would have to have trajectory and hitbox calculations.

Ok back on topic, what warcrow said with clusters would apply here and seriously, if you think money is a problem for a company like blizzard, think again. I'm not talking about doom3 gameplay, more like UT. The best server I play UT on is a single FX53 with 1.5 gig's of ram, plays 32 players with 0 lag for me. Now for 10,000$ or 20,000$ you can prolly buy an 8way opty with 8 - 12 gigs of ram that'll handle 128+ players. Then have servers by zones (aka US East) for the bandwidth issue. Then you dynamically adjust servers in the cluster to account for player movements (aka raids of some sort with 100+ players in a small area).

The cost being too high is BS, mmp's are huge cash cows. you get 10,000 people paying 12$ a month that's 1.44 million a year and that's a small mmp and doesn't include box sales either...
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
So you believe that you could have 200 people in a zone with 0ms lag who could swing their swords and the server would compute hitboxes/trajectory/dodging on the fly?

Let me ask you this Dman, if it is so possible, why hasn't it been done?
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
Originally posted by: Dman877
Originally posted by: skace
So much to reply to, probably not even worth it. First of all, there won't be a numberless mmorpg until 1000 people can play on a server with 30ms latency. Are you telling me the bandwidth is there? I highly doubt it. Did you try raiding in EQ, warring in Shadowbane, RVR in WoW? MOST players in mmorpgs hit latency issues regardless if you realize they are there or not. In fact, the blatant disregard for latency issues in some of these posts lead me to believe half of you don't even play mmorpgs. The fact is that that the infrastructure just isn't there yet to handle this kind of game. Latency and bandwidth aside, the machines processing all the hitboxes would most likely have to be a damned super computer. Every axe / sword swung or magic spell cast would have to have trajectory and hitbox calculations.

Ok back on topic, what warcrow said with clusters would apply here and seriously, if you think money is a problem for a company like blizzard, think again. I'm not talking about doom3 gameplay, more like UT. The best server I play UT on is a single FX53 with 1.5 gig's of ram, plays 32 players with 0 lag for me. Now for 10,000$ or 20,000$ you can prolly buy an 8way opty with 8 - 12 gigs of ram that'll handle 128+ players. Then have servers by zones (aka US East) for the bandwidth issue. Then you dynamically adjust servers in the cluster to account for player movements (aka raids of some sort with 100+ players in a small area).

The cost being too high is BS, mmp's are huge cash cows. you get 10,000 people paying 12$ a month that's 1.44 million a year and that's a small mmp and doesn't include box sales either...


You obviously have never visited a MMORPG company and asked for a tour...
I visted Verant in California and Origin(EA now) in Austin when they ran UO out of Austin..
the CPU horsepower needed for these games is enormous...

They are already server clusters.. it takes many many Servers to run 1 "server" so to speak...
the computing server power to run WoW is enormous as it is...
and the network requirements are even higher...
like I said you guys on the stress test made life on the beta server and PVP server miserable.. they obviously had set those stress to have more bandwith available than the betas... we were lagged badly.. and the login cluster crashed serveral times from all the traffic..
sorry but you have no idea what is already involved in server and bandwith costs to run a modern MMORPG...
what these peeps are talking about is not possible for the time being the processing power already is being utilized to the max..

 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
CCSin, I disagree.

There is an infinitie amount of resources available to any clustered architecture. The only limiting resource is money that said company is willing to invest to spend to reach that. Every company has a budget, and every company has budgets within budgets for different groups, this includes hardware purchases. I work in a NOC for one of the biggest corporations in the world so I've worked with F5s and Alteons (loadbalancers) and clusters (mainly for our email and ecommerce systems). Its very possible. I experienced one issue with lag in the stress. I do not remember which server I was on, but that one instance I can recall. I was running out near Thunder Bluff and rubberbanded once. Thats it. Hell, that ws probably because of my cable provider. Anyways, I'm in agreement with Dman here.

So, your statement, "what these peeps are talking about is not possible for the time being the processing power already is being utilized to the max." is relative to that data center only becuase thats all they've invested.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
Even if they had the biggest servers in the world running this sh!t, you'd still lag in a 200 person fps environment. It is nice to know you run the biggest server room in the world, but that doesn't change the scenario or the factors in play.

For what it is worth, here is some content for the actual thread and for the game that this thread actually began for. CVSiN, this is what probably lagged you guys just as much as it lagged us :). We killed our own server a few times:

Barrens War
Barrens War 2
Alliance Welcoming Commitee

And some random shots:
Fenrus Battle
Random Skace Profile
Bat Flight
Scenic Tarren Mills

Edit: I will most likely make it into the Closed Beta due to the leveling competition, perhaps I will see you CVSiN. What server are you on?
 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
"biggest server"? What does the size of the machine have anything to do with what we're talking about? I'm taling about raw power here. Pure number crunching power. You're wrong about "Even if they had the biggest servers in the world running this sh!t, you'd still lag in a 200 person fps environment". If by biggest, you ment the most powerful, then what you're say is a Cray (fitted to run a BF:1942) would be unable to run a map with 200 players? :confused: lol!

Also, I never said I "run the biggest server room in the world", I'm just a network technician not a manager, for one of the biggest companies in the world. We dont have the biggest server room (its called a coldroom or a data center), it only consist of about 400-450+ production systems and about 100 test+dev systems. Its a good size, but no where near the biggest. Thanks for the assumtion though. ;)
 

Krk3561

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2002
3,242
0
0
Originally posted by: CVSiN
Originally posted by: Andvari
Originally posted by: Jigglelicious
players on opposite teams can't communicate with each other at all (at least, this is what was announced many months ago, perhaps it was changed). I can't even begin to imagine all the roleplay possibilities down the drain simply because good and evil can't communicate, and are limited to mindless slaughter.

You can't initially. If you learn a common tongue, you can. I think you can whisper to opposite teams from the get-go, but I'm not sure about that part.

Either way I like the way things are being handled. I think it would be cool if in a later expansion they allow for some things they don't know, like guilds comprising of Alliance and Horde. Obviously this would be due to some major plot-line change, like they had to sign a peace treaty or something for some reason.

Blizzard's tellin the story, we just need to sit back and enjoy the ride.

Gameplay is where we can gripe if we wanna. ;)

No you cannot talk to opposite realm at all...
this gaem was built as a PVP game..
they follawed DAOCs lead and are not allowing communication at all between horde and alliance..
and what you are discribing as mindless monster grinding is not happening on beta...
this must have been a side result of the max levels get a beta slot. peeps were all in grind or else mode...

Like Ive said before my max char from Alpha till now is still an L35..
i have yet to reach max level on any char...
my latest creation is an L25 Hunter thats slowly leveling up..
I play on average 20+ hours a week and its not too fast or too slow for me...
feels just about right..

There is actually a way to talk between factions, I have a SS of it to prove it too.
 

Rage187

Lifer
Dec 30, 2000
14,276
4
81
Its is laggy even when 30 people were on the screen.


Aoe spell effects crashed Manneroth numerous times while PVPing in Thelsmar.

But once again, its beta.


Sirrage 28th dwarf pally, Manneroth.
 

Krk3561

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2002
3,242
0
0
Originally posted by: Rage187
Its is laggy even when 30 people were on the screen.


Aoe spell effects crashed Manneroth numerous times while PVPing in Thelsmar.

But once again, its beta.


Sirrage 28th dwarf pally, Manneroth.

I never had problems with lag and lots of people on screen personally
 

Dman877

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2004
2,707
0
0
Originally posted by: skace
So you believe that you could have 200 people in a zone with 0ms lag who could swing their swords and the server would compute hitboxes/trajectory/dodging on the fly?

Let me ask you this Dman, if it is so possible, why hasn't it been done?

It hasn't been done because either no one in a position to create this kind of thing has had the idea, or like warcrow said, it would alienate the majority fanbase who want a glorified random number generator.

As to the lag issue, first 0 ms isn't necessary, I can enjoy any fps with a ping under 100. Second, technology is constantly changing, don't say "can't" when it comes to computers. Finally, there are creative solutions to these problems. AC had it's portal storms. If you had a dynamic cluster, you could literally have one server follow x number of players and if more then x number of players were in a small area, you would have more servers running that area. You could have a fog-of-war effect that would blot out anything more then 10 feet away in massive battles too, to prevent massive numbers of visible players chugging systems...

My brother works for a developer of mmp's I won't mention and I have had plenty of tours. My dad also happens to be an engineer for a major comupter firm developing massive (64+ cpu) servers that can do some amazing things. It all comes down to money though...
 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
Dman, its useless. He just will not understand the concept of what we're talking about. He's too focused on trying to be right and will not listen. <shrug>
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Great review Warcrow, thanks :)

One question...how is battle handled?
Is it just the old "Stand still and shoot/chop at each other until the one with the crappier gear/level dies" or is there actually some skill involved?
That's about the one thing I've always hated with these types of games, skill means very little, having lots and lots of free time matters alot.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
Originally posted by: Sunner
Great review Warcrow, thanks :)

One question...how is battle handled?
Is it just the old "Stand still and shoot/chop at each other until the one with the crappier gear/level dies" or is there actually some skill involved?
That's about the one thing I've always hated with these types of games, skill means very little, having lots and lots of free time matters alot.

The combat is stand still and chop. Though they did implement a few interesting things. Rogues and Warriors can create self-made combos by chaining a bunch of their own skills. Warriors have a rage meter, in that they gain rage through combat and then use rage through skills. This lets them have strategies that they can go into battle expecting. Far more than slam and taunt of the ol EQ warrior. Caster strategy really comes down to 1 thing: insta-cast spells. Certain caster spells can be cast while moving and take absolutely no time at all. These spells allow a caster to change the course of a battle while on the run / etc where as most games force a caster to be standing in place (of course, insta-cast spells are, for the most part, generally weaker, but they do allow for different caster strategies).
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
Originally posted by: warcrow
Dman, its useless. He just will not understand the concept of what we're talking about. He's too focused on trying to be right and will not listen. <shrug>

No. I admit defeat Warcrow, I am totally wrong. It is completely possible to create your guys dream game of doom3 with swords and 2000 people per 'server'. It just hasn't happened because every developer is fat and lazy and can't seem to tap into creative geniuses like you 2. I am so amazingly stupid to argue with the son of an engineer / brother of an mmorpg something or other and the guy who runs god's server room.. er I'm sorry, networks god's server room / data center / frozen wasteland / whatever the hell you wanna call it. I suggest you beat it into my head by throwing out some more random server terms.

I guess it is useless, I guess you will have to prove me wrong by starting your own mmorpg / fps combination. You realize the massive untapped market for that type of game? You 2 could be millionaires. Let me know when you need a beta tester.
 

Malladine

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
4,618
0
71
Originally posted by: Dman877It hasn't been done because either no one in a position to create this kind of thing has had the idea, or like warcrow said, it would alienate the majority fanbase who want a glorified random number generator.

As to the lag issue, first 0 ms isn't necessary, I can enjoy any fps with a ping under 100. Second, technology is constantly changing, don't say "can't" when it comes to computers. Finally, there are creative solutions to these problems. AC had it's portal storms. If you had a dynamic cluster, you could literally have one server follow x number of players and if more then x number of players were in a small area, you would have more servers running that area. You could have a fog-of-war effect that would blot out anything more then 10 feet away in massive battles too, to prevent massive numbers of visible players chugging systems...

My brother works for a developer of mmp's I won't mention and I have had plenty of tours. My dad also happens to be an engineer for a major comupter firm developing massive (64+ cpu) servers that can do some amazing things. It all comes down to money though...
Much can be done than has not; Where there's a will there's a way, as the saying goes. Like i've said before, if we ask for it loudly enough, and if there's a developer out there with the balls to innovate, it will be done. It's quite obvious that any idea made to be fun will sell and equally obvious that the processing power is available to pull this off.

Top500 supercomputers. Notice WETA Digital (the small NZ company who did all the computer based special effects for LoTR movies) @ positions 77 and 80. They have two 1100 cpu supercomputers. The closest explicit gaming server is Sony @ 147 with 500 fewer gigaflops than WETA's least powerful server. Consider, all you doubters, that the gaming industry is fast approaching the annual revenue attained by the movie industry. Consider, also, that even if Blizzard sat in position 1 that still would not mean that the limit has been reached. As long as miniaturization continues, there is no limit.

An interesting suggestion of what the (not so distant - consider two years ago IBM constructed transistors out of carbon nanotubes) future of computing holds: with nano computing, it is feasible to imagine "a computer the size of a sugar cube containing greater computing power than all of the computers in the world today, combined"
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
Originally posted by: warcrow
"biggest server"? What does the size of the machine have anything to do with what we're talking about? I'm taling about raw power here. Pure number crunching power. You're wrong about "Even if they had the biggest servers in the world running this sh!t, you'd still lag in a 200 person fps environment". If by biggest, you ment the most powerful, then what you're say is a Cray (fitted to run a BF:1942) would be unable to run a map with 200 players? :confused: lol!

Also, I never said I "run the biggest server room in the world", I'm just a network technician not a manager, for one of the biggest companies in the world. We dont have the biggest server room (its called a coldroom or a data center), it only consist of about 400-450+ production systems and about 100 test+dev systems. Its a good size, but no where near the biggest. Thanks for the assumtion though. ;)

I got the same impression about you as skace did.. you were bragging for the sake of bragging.. not cool man..
im done debating with you on the fact as you already have your mind set in a differnet environment..
corporate number crunching in cluster is alot different that running a retail MMORPG i guarnetee EQ uses more CPU cycles per month than your entire corp does..

Skace I play both im on Beta server more playing with a high end raid guild most of the time.
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
Originally posted by: Sunner
Great review Warcrow, thanks :)

One question...how is battle handled?
Is it just the old "Stand still and shoot/chop at each other until the one with the crappier gear/level dies" or is there actually some skill involved?
That's about the one thing I've always hated with these types of games, skill means very little, having lots and lots of free time matters alot.

no its not if you try that you will die...
rogues have what they call a combo point system you build these points during combat that you can spend to use a finishing move.. the more points you build up the better the move becomes..
IE there is a haste move that the more points you have when you use it the longer the haste lasts...
or there is an armour debuff that gets stronger the more points you use on it..
dont get confused these points are only during combat these moves cannot be used unless you have at leastb 1 combo point..

Warriors have a similar system called rage.. their abilites need a certain amount of rage to be used.
very fun combat system all in all..
 

Malladine

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
4,618
0
71
Sorry if I started a landslide here guys ;)

CVSiN, I can't seem to be able to get private msging to work so i'll ask here. Will you be trying EQ2 out?
 

ggnl

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
5,095
1
0
How does the character balance seem so far? Are all the classes reasonably competitive at higher levels, or are some obviously over/underpowered? I played Asheron's Call for about 2 years and left because of the horribly inbalanced character classes.

Also, I haven't heard anyone mention anything about the guild system in the game. How does it work?
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
Originally posted by: Malladine
Sorry if I started a landslide here guys ;)

CVSiN, I can't seem to be able to get private msging to work so i'll ask here. Will you be trying EQ2 out?

Ya bro already preordered it.. not sure if Ill play much if the grind is as insane as my friends in beta are saying it is..
but Ill have it...

Class Balance...
not done yet
there are VERY incomplete classes in the game still
Blizzard is still overhauling the talent system for quite a few of the classes and theya re constantly being adjusted up and down...

Rogue is still one of the FOTM classes so are Warlocks..
both are pretty powerful..
but last patch it was Mages but they got nerfed huge...
constant adjsutments still in this state of beta..
 

Malladine

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
4,618
0
71
awesome, lemme know what server/char name.

Do you know of any Open Beta?

On WoW classes, I probably enjoyed my Rogue the most...equal to Druid. Only reached lvl 8 with them both so didn't even try poison/shapechanging out. Open betas will decide things :D
 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: warcrow
Dman, its useless. He just will not understand the concept of what we're talking about. He's too focused on trying to be right and will not listen. <shrug>

No. I admit defeat Warcrow, I am totally wrong. It is completely possible to create your guys dream game of doom3 with swords and 2000 people per 'server'. It just hasn't happened because every developer is fat and lazy and can't seem to tap into creative geniuses like you 2. I am so amazingly stupid to argue with the son of an engineer / brother of an mmorpg something or other and the guy who runs god's server room.. er I'm sorry, networks god's server room / data center / frozen wasteland / whatever the hell you wanna call it. I suggest you beat it into my head by throwing out some more random server terms.

I guess it is useless, I guess you will have to prove me wrong by starting your own mmorpg / fps combination. You realize the massive untapped market for that type of game? You 2 could be millionaires. Let me know when you need a beta tester.

Maturity at its best. Well, its obvious my point will not be made here. Its all good. See ya around the forum. :beer:
 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
Originally posted by: Malladine
Originally posted by: Dman877It hasn't been done because either no one in a position to create this kind of thing has had the idea, or like warcrow said, it would alienate the majority fanbase who want a glorified random number generator.

As to the lag issue, first 0 ms isn't necessary, I can enjoy any fps with a ping under 100. Second, technology is constantly changing, don't say "can't" when it comes to computers. Finally, there are creative solutions to these problems. AC had it's portal storms. If you had a dynamic cluster, you could literally have one server follow x number of players and if more then x number of players were in a small area, you would have more servers running that area. You could have a fog-of-war effect that would blot out anything more then 10 feet away in massive battles too, to prevent massive numbers of visible players chugging systems...

My brother works for a developer of mmp's I won't mention and I have had plenty of tours. My dad also happens to be an engineer for a major comupter firm developing massive (64+ cpu) servers that can do some amazing things. It all comes down to money though...
Much can be done than has not; Where there's a will there's a way, as the saying goes. Like i've said before, if we ask for it loudly enough, and if there's a developer out there with the balls to innovate, it will be done. It's quite obvious that any idea made to be fun will sell and equally obvious that the processing power is available to pull this off.

Top500 supercomputers. Notice WETA Digital (the small NZ company who did all the computer based special effects for LoTR movies) @ positions 77 and 80. They have two 1100 cpu supercomputers. The closest explicit gaming server is Sony @ 147 with 500 fewer gigaflops than WETA's least powerful server. Consider, all you doubters, that the gaming industry is fast approaching the annual revenue attained by the movie industry. Consider, also, that even if Blizzard sat in position 1 that still would not mean that the limit has been reached. As long as miniaturization continues, there is no limit.

An interesting suggestion of what the (not so distant - consider two years ago IBM constructed transistors out of carbon nanotubes) future of computing holds: with nano computing, it is feasible to imagine "a computer the size of a sugar cube containing greater computing power than all of the computers in the world today, combined"

I read a few days ago that Peter Jackson is "renting" out his server farm. Maybe Sony should give them a call. :p
 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
Originally posted by: CVSiN
Originally posted by: warcrow
"biggest server"? What does the size of the machine have anything to do with what we're talking about? I'm taling about raw power here. Pure number crunching power. You're wrong about "Even if they had the biggest servers in the world running this sh!t, you'd still lag in a 200 person fps environment". If by biggest, you ment the most powerful, then what you're say is a Cray (fitted to run a BF:1942) would be unable to run a map with 200 players? :confused: lol!

Also, I never said I "run the biggest server room in the world", I'm just a network technician not a manager, for one of the biggest companies in the world. We dont have the biggest server room (its called a coldroom or a data center), it only consist of about 400-450+ production systems and about 100 test+dev systems. Its a good size, but no where near the biggest. Thanks for the assumtion though. ;)

I got the same impression about you as skace did.. you were bragging for the sake of bragging.. not cool man..
im done debating with you on the fact as you already have your mind set in a differnet environment..
corporate number crunching in cluster is alot different that running a retail MMORPG i guarnetee EQ uses more CPU cycles per month than your entire corp does..

Skace I play both im on Beta server more playing with a high end raid guild most of the time.

Its too bad you got that impression, becuase thats not what was intended. I was merely pointing out that I have direct experience with these types of systems and was not just talking out of my a$$. Its true what you say about EQ machines crunching many more numbers than the systems, I deal with. I never said that that wasnt the case. Anyways, we're just going to have to agree to disagree and move foward. Cool?

Ok, then lets drop the petty stuff and plan on a anandtech guild for WoW. :D!
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
1
0
hehe cool
Ill be playing PvP on final if my game guild does wow... if they Do EQ2 ill be looking
for a WoW raid style guild most likely..