War with Pakistan? Let's suppose that Pakistan knowingly harbored Bin Laden.

[Infohawk]

For all you armchair hardasses in here talking about dropping bombs and nuking Pakistan.. I urge you to take a trip over there and mingle with the civilians. You'll come back to this country realizing how ignorant you are.

Although I haven't advocated bombing Pakistan yet, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Are you going to share some anecdotes of friendly Pakistanis with us? Is that supposed to outweigh Daniel Pearl's story or all the other stories, including the OBL killing, that strongly suggest that the people of Pakistan are not friends of America?

 

[MrEgo]

Although I haven't advocated bombing Pakistan yet, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Are you going to share some anecdotes of friendly Pakistanis with us? Is that supposed to outweigh Daniel Pearl's story or all the other stories, including the OBL killing, that strongly suggest that the people of Pakistan are not friends of America?

I don't know what your political ideology leans towards, but imagine if the people of Pakistan looked at a U.S. president that you strongly disagreed with, and said "we should bomb the United States, they are totally against us". Even though you do not share the beliefs or decisions that this particular president has ordered, the people of Pakistan are lumping you together with the government.

What I'm saying is that the people of Pakistan want peace just like the rest of us do. People and government are just as much different here as they are there. Yes, I do personally know several Pakistani people, and they are incredibly nice. They said that the United States is seen as a wonderful country full of opportunity by a vast majority of the people, but there are people who view it negatively as well. Sounds just like us, doesn't it? We have several people in this thread alone that would like to see it turned into glass.

It's always the same old story. You think you know what another country is all about until you go there. When the Soviet Union was still around, any U.S. citizen that took a trip over there was amazed at how curious and polite the civilians were. Despite our two governments flinging shit at one another and propaganda flying all over the place, the civilian population wanted nothing more than peace and stability. When you get to know people from other countries, you realize that they aren't much different than we are.

 

[CanOWorms]

Lots of European countries knowingly harbor other enemies of the US in plain sight. How come we're not advocating bombing them but Pakistan is ok?



Your Anti European Trolling has no place in this thread.

Anandtech Admin
Red Dawn

 

[Infohawk]

What I'm saying is that the people of Pakistan want peace just like the rest of us do. People and government ...

You're just repeating yourself from your first post. You want to convince me with your anecdotes and personal experience. Meanwhile, opinion polls and news events show that it is dangerous for Americans to be in Pakistan and that Pakistanis dislike the United States. So, Mr. Ego, if you want to change my mind about that I suggest you link to opinion polls or other actual evidence. No offense, but I'm not going to be convinced even if you were a Pakistani.

If Pakistanis were fearful of being bombed, they should take control of their country and stop harboring terrorists. Actions have consequences. Few people want to kill Pakistani civilians on purpose but if the US is forced to attack Pakistan and civilians die as collateral damage I will not cry over it. Again, they are responsible for their country and leadership.

Bear in mind I opposed the Iraq war. But I think Pakistan is a much more real threat to the US, especially in light of recent events.

 

[Infohawk]

Lots of European countries knowingly harbor other enemies of the US in plain sight. How come we're not advocating bombing them but Pakistan is ok?

Roman Polanski is a statutory rapist at worst. You think France or Switzerland should be bombed for not extraditing him?

 

[Fern]

What would be the point of going to war? Are we in the "punish those we don't like with war" business?

^This.

I see no point in bombing Pakistan, we've killed UBL and humiliated Pakistan in the process. That's sufficient for me.

However, we should consider ceasing funding etc, and put them on some sort of sh!tlist. But I'm not for sanction at this time either, that mostly just makes the 'common man's' life harder.

Fern

 

[irishScott]

Uh, guys, Pakistan is our main supply route to Afghanistan and there is no really feasible alternate route. Bombing them is hardly in our interest.

 

[Infohawk]

Uh, guys, Pakistan is our main supply route to Afghanistan and there is no really feasible alternate route. Bombing them is hardly in our interest.

Dude, you're assuming Afghanistan is the primary target at this point. If you haven't noticed, we found Osama in Pakistan. We went into Afghanistan because they harbored him and now it turns out the Pakistanis have been haboring him. A big debate right now is if this marks a turning point for getting out of Afghanistan. In other words, your priorities are mixed up.

 

[CanOWorms]

Roman Polanski is a statutory rapist at worst. You think France or Switzerland should be bombed for not extraditing him?

He's a larger symbol, much like OBL. I'm asking why the US doesn't send special forces to apprehend him. They should be treated just like Pakistan.

 

[irishScott]

Dude, you're assuming Afghanistan is the primary target at this point. If you haven't noticed, we found Osama in Pakistan. We went into Afghanistan because they harbored him and now it turns out the Pakistanis have been haboring him. A big debate right now is if this marks a turning point for getting out of Afghanistan. In other words, your priorities are mixed up.

I'm the one arguing against bombing a technically allied nuclear power with a powerful military because they may or may not have been knowingly harboring OBL, and my priorities are mixed up?

Pakistan is corrupt as hell. One faction of their government might have harbored him, maybe the local government. I fail to see how it's a pretext for an Afghanistan style invasion. Not to mention such an invasion would be insanely more costly given their military capability and, oh yeah... NUKES.

We're not going into Pakistan anytime soon, and we shouldn't. Would be a complete and utter waste.

 

[Infohawk]

I'm the one arguing against bombing a technically allied nuclear power with a powerful military because they may or may not have been knowingly harboring OBL, and my priorities are mixed up?

Pakistan is corrupt as hell. One faction of their government might have harbored him, maybe the local government. I fail to see how it's a pretext for an Afghanistan style invasion. Not to mention such an invasion would be insanely more costly given their military capability and, oh yeah... NUKES.

We're not going into Pakistan anytime soon, and we shouldn't. Would be a complete and utter waste.

Because you probably haven't read the relevant posts, I'll just point out that I'm not arguing that we should attack Pakistan now. (I'm arguing that if it's true the Pakistanis knew about it they should be ostracized from the international community and cut off from trade.)

You initially argued that we shouldn't attack Pakistan because they are our route to Afghanistan. I'm saying that is a weak argument because Osama's alleged presence in Afghanistan was one of the major reasons for us to be there. He's dead now and people are tiring of the war in Afghanistan and realizing that we're not going to turn them into a civilized country.

If now you're saying we shouldn't attack because of their nukes, that's fine and that's not what I'm arguing against.

 

[yllus]

Roman Polanski is a statutory rapist at worst.

Actually he's a statutory rapist at best, and a proper rapist at worst.

Anyways - the reason Pakistan wasn't invaded right after Afghanistan is because you can't win a war in Pakistan without going with the nuclear option. Iraq has a population of 31 million people over 450,000 square kilometers. Pakistan has a population of 170 million people over 800,000 square kilometers. Iraqis generally avoided fighting for their leader and country; that would not be the case in Pakistan. And we've still not broached the topic of Pakistan's nuclear arms. There is no possibility for victory.

 

[tvarad]

The problem with Pakistan is that their leaders are basically cowards. Remember when Colin Powell said the U.S. would kick it's ass if it didn't join the war on terror, they bent over within a day or two. After their Kargil misadventure against India, they went running to the U.S. to arrange a ceasefire when India threatened to cross the border to sort them out. So also after the parliament attack as well as the mumbai attacks in 26/11. The minute the immediate pressure is off of them, they go back to their two-timing ways. How do you deal with a weasel of a country?

 

[werepossum]

Dude, you're assuming Afghanistan is the primary target at this point. If you haven't noticed, we found Osama in Pakistan. We went into Afghanistan because they harbored him and now it turns out the Pakistanis have been haboring him. A big debate right now is if this marks a turning point for getting out of Afghanistan. In other words, your priorities are mixed up.

Um, no. We went into Afghanistan partially because they refused to hand over Bin Laden, but also because the Taliban gave a safe haven and government support to Al Qaeda. Had they ended that AND turned over Bin Laden they could have escaped war, but just Bin Laden would have done us little good.

Soon we will be out of that shit hole, which will remain a shit hole as long as its flavor of Islam rules its society. At that point we need to cease all aid to Pakistan and embargo the hell out of it. The only reason we ever supported Pakistan anyway was as a hedge against Soviet-leaning India, and that country's usefulness will end with our mission in Afghanistan.

 

[SparkyJJO]

War? What for?

"You had Osama, we're gonna fight you!!!!! And do... what?"

Really, what good would it do? In war, you need goals. What goal would there be going after pakistan? We already got Osama, so... 😕

As mentioned, Sanctions and such would be much more effective and actually do something other than just getting into a spiteful fistfight without a real goal.

 

[Infohawk]

Um, no. We went into Afghanistan partially because they refused to hand over Bin Laden, but also because the Taliban gave a safe haven and government support to Al Qaeda. Had they ended that AND turned over Bin Laden they could have escaped war, but just Bin Laden would have done us little good.

Soon we will be out of that shit hole, which will remain a shit hole as long as its flavor of Islam rules its society. At that point we need to cease all aid to Pakistan and embargo the hell out of it. The only reason we ever supported Pakistan anyway was as a hedge against Soviet-leaning India, and that country's usefulness will end with our mission in Afghanistan.

Maybe you misunderstood me or maybe I didn't explain things properly but I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[M0RPH]

Not only are we not going to take any military action against them, we will keep sending them billions of dollars in aid while our country is broke. Gotta love politics.

 

[werepossum]

Maybe you misunderstood me or maybe I didn't explain things properly but I'm not disagreeing with you.

Ah, my bad.

 

[Attic]

War, sanctions and other ways to hurt Pakistan would hurt people who are not responsible for the threat Pakistan poses more than it would hurt anyone else.

Difficult to achieve the proper solution for the threat Pakistan is. I don't think the answer is to hurt the country.

 

[Wag]

For all you armchair hardasses in here talking about dropping bombs and nuking Pakistan.. I urge you to take a trip over there and mingle with the civilians. You'll come back to this country realizing how ignorant you are.

I wonder if they'd mind me going to synagogue there? Oh, wait...

 

[MrEgo]

I wonder if they'd mind me going to synagogue there? Oh, wait...

You know it wasn't that long ago that we were hanging people because of their skin color.

You tell me what would happen if you told them you were Jewish. You seem to know.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

OP is out of his god damn mind.

 

[MrEgo]

You're just repeating yourself from your first post. You want to convince me with your anecdotes and personal experience. Meanwhile, opinion polls and news events show that it is dangerous for Americans to be in Pakistan and that Pakistanis dislike the United States. So, Mr. Ego, if you want to change my mind about that I suggest you link to opinion polls or other actual evidence. No offense, but I'm not going to be convinced even if you were a Pakistani.

If Pakistanis were fearful of being bombed, they should take control of their country and stop harboring terrorists. Actions have consequences. Few people want to kill Pakistani civilians on purpose but if the US is forced to attack Pakistan and civilians die as collateral damage I will not cry over it. Again, they are responsible for their country and leadership.

Bear in mind I opposed the Iraq war. But I think Pakistan is a much more real threat to the US, especially in light of recent events.

Do you know how the Pakistanis felt about Osama bin Laden living there? Do you have a good sense that they welcomed him there? I'm talking about the civilians, not the ISS.

I doubt that you do, and I'm not saying that I do, either... but I am not arguing for possible military action against them. I don't know what military action would accomplish? Would it be like whipping a horse to get it to run faster? Keep bombing until they overthrow the anti-U.S. government officials?

 

[Wag]

You know it wasn't that long ago that we were hanging people because of their skin color.

You tell me what would happen if you told them you were Jewish. You seem to know.

My point was that there are no synagogues there for me to worship in even if I wanted to because all the Jews were driven out, just like they were in most other Muslim countries. You seem to know how liberal and democratic the Pakistani populous is, but apparently not that much because they still are victim to the same anti-semitic BS that plagues other countries in that region.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

You know it wasn't that long ago that we were hanging people because of their skin color.

You tell me what would happen if you told them you were Jewish. You seem to know.

i agree that there are good people there. there are good and bad people in every place...no one place is full of only assholes. i'd say right now, there is a higher percentage of shitty people in pakistan who are assholes than in other places.