Walmart's push for USA made stuff hits snag

[WHAMPOM]

Gonna have to import manufacturing machines and managers to train the workforce! Hey!! That could work! After all we sent our best efficiency expert to Japan to set up their manufacturing and look what it did to our car companies. Prophet in his own village.

 

[WackyDan]

Read the article. It's not just management. Sourcing components inside the USA is a problem, because that's been moved oversea's in the last few decades.

Regardless of what is believed. Manufacturing jobs do require skill, attention to detail, and physical labor.

Are you advocating having illegal immigrants work under the table so Walmart can keep it's costs down?

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

However, production line tasks are still relatively simple tasks. Part a with part b then c... Any idiot that meets the need for a high school education and strength(if any) required for the job is qualified. There are a metric shit ton of those workers out there.... If we forced them off food stamps, housing, and outright cash assistance.

 

[Zaap]

If a job can be done by someone in Bangaladesh who has a 2nd grade education I'd say the U.S. is actually better off not having that job.

This is that "excellent first worlder" thinking.
"I'm special! I live in America! I'm God's gift to the world! Everyone in Bangledesh and everywhere else is just an ignorant savage with a 2nd graders mind. I don't have to worry about competeing with a bunch of perpetually inferior savages! I can major in beer-pong and spring break, not know how to do shit, be dumb as a box of rocks... but I deserve every advantage over that ignorant savage out in the jungle somewhere! Cause I'm special. First world birthright baby!!!!!"

The problem with this horseshit "thinking": its horseshit. First Worlders in the US aren't that special. Everyone in Bangledesh and elsewhere that didn't major in beer pong and spring break is probably your equal employment wise, and many your superior. If not yet, many are working on it. Even as excellent first worlders continue plotting how to sit on their asses and get some rich guy to pay for everything for them.

I have a friend who runs a camera equipment manufacturing company. He was psyched to "do his part" and bring his operation back to the US from China.

Lasted six months. For all the pain in the ass dealing with China was, it was a cakewalk compared to dealing with US excellent first worlder dickhead assholes with no fucking skills, attitudes bigger than China, the work ethics of sloths... who all think a good job is their birthright.

He's been happily back in China for some time now. This current generation of lazy turds in this country is largely a write off. And as it turns out, everyone else in the world isn't an ignorant savage forever willing to live in slime to be a servant for some first worlder asshole. Those that only have a "2nd grade education" probably in many cases have a lot more real world knowledge and experience than so-called college grads in this country.

 

[moonbogg]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

However, production line tasks are still relatively simple tasks. Part a with part b then c... Any idiot that meets the need for a high school education and strength(if any) required for the job is qualified. There are a metric shit ton of those workers out there.... If we forced them off food stamps, housing, and outright cash assistance.

Nice. What about industrial designers, CNC operators, welders, fabricators, electrical assembly, injection mold and tooling designers, tool and die makers, casting house workers etc etc etc? What about service, repair and other support companies might spring up to support these large factories? You think they just sustain themselves?
Yeah, I'm sure its all about finding a bunch of drones to slap crappy parts together on an assembly line. What else could possibly be involved?

 

[Carson Dyle]

I guess it's not clear how Walmart is trying to do this. There ARE American made goods in many of the products that Walmart carries. It's not like you have to start up old factories to accomplish this.

My guess is that they're approaching existing vendors and saying "Help us out. We need to figure out how to get $X worth of American made products into our stores. But you have to do it at the current price points. Or else Bye, we'll find someone else to do it."

 

[waggy]

Mike Rowe (yeah the TV guy who did dirty jobs) talks about things like this often. The US has for some reason got it into its head jobs such as working in a factory, working with your hands etc is bad. YOU NEED a college degree.

so that thought killed trade schools. When i was in school we had the option to take classes like wood shop, mechanic training, electric etc. Now i don't know of any high school that offers anything like that.

I think in time this idea that you NEED a college degree is going to severely hurt the US. People who are willing to do such work though are going to be in demand and make a living and a good one.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Nice. What about industrial designers, CNC operators, welders, fabricators, electrical assembly, injection mold and tooling designers, tool and die makers, casting house workers etc etc etc? What about service, repair and other support companies might spring up to support these large factories? You think they just sustain themselves?
Yeah, I'm sure its all about finding a bunch of drones to slap crappy parts together on an assembly line. What else could possibly be involved?

Exactly! It takes the same exact skills and trades that current factories in the US utilize, the only problem is people that possess these skills and trades are scarce. Though it is good for those who possess these skills and trades as they can garner good salaries and benefits, specially those who can train the next generation.

Will "Gen Y" deem these jobs to be worthy of going after rather than a cushy office job?

 

[werepossum]

No, I want unskilled workers to be good employees and earn the training and promotions that will upgrade their capabilities allowing them to do increased value-add work. Trying to stubbornly maintain low end manufacturing in the U.S. just so that we can hold onto a few textile worker jobs is stupid. If a job can be done by someone in Bangaladesh who has a 2nd grade education I'd say the U.S. is actually better off not having that job. You're correct that the manufacturing jobs we do want require skill, attention to detail, and physical labor but that also means we'll have a lot less manufacturing jobs. And that's the entire point.

Personally I want those low end manufacturing jobs as well. There's something sad about the world's only superpower not being able to supply its own uniforms or boots. And even with the lowest tech requirements, those jobs help.

We've destroyed the infrastructure and the skill sets have gone. It's been so long that finding people who can teach what is needed are scarce. Once you kill a thing it's very hard to resurrect it. That's why major changes ought to be done very carefully, but they almost always aren't.

Yep. Basically we're rediscovering these skills, but unlike when we outsourced those skills the people now using them aren't keen on helping us replace them.

Nice. What about industrial designers, CNC operators, welders, fabricators, electrical assembly, injection mold and tooling designers, tool and die makers, casting house workers etc etc etc? What about service, repair and other support companies might spring up to support these large factories? You think they just sustain themselves?
Yeah, I'm sure its all about finding a bunch of drones to slap crappy parts together on an assembly line. What else could possibly be involved?

That's what is called the commons, the common base of skills, knowledge and production which are ancillary but very necessary to establish a manufacturing business.

 

[MongGrel]

They're talking about management skills, not workers. Being able to successfully run a manufacturing operation is the hard part, not finding some unskilled dumbass to screw on lugnuts. If it was the later problem we'd already have Mexicans doing it.

Yeah, right, like those lug nuts and the things they attach to make themselves.

Uhm, shouldn't we be experienced at setting up manufacturing in a region where there is an inexperienced workforce? Corporations have spent the last three decades doing it in China, I'm sure they can do it here again. Putting some plastic injection modeling machines in a warehouse should cover 99% of the things walmart sells.

And again, Tool and Diemakers/Moldmakers. You're seem to think molds materialize out of thin air? And the list someone put up above, there is a lot related to it, not just slapping parts together with a wrench.

Corporations broke a link in the chain that goes back to early woodworker and blacksmith shops by sending their best managers over seas to train a foreign workforce. We have a generation gap due to a loss of people who could not pass down their skills to their replacements.
Close down your shops 'cause you can get it made cheaper elsewhere and lose the skills to do it yourself! Ya, that's the ticket!

And what he said, +1. The market for the high end manufacturing jobs is one of the ones that has been fractured.

 

[moonbogg]

Exactly! It takes the same exact skills and trades that current factories in the US utilize, the only problem is people that possess these skills and trades are scarce. Though it is good for those who possess these skills and trades as they can garner good salaries and benefits, specially those who can train the next generation.

Will "Gen Y" deem these jobs to be worthy of going after rather than a cushy office job?

The sad thing is that most of these kids likely see two options: Get a GOOD degree from an accredited university, or work at McDonalds. Isn't that what parents sometimes tell their kids? Isn't that what teachers and schools sometimes imply?
"Nowadays, competition is fierce and having a degree is STANDARD. You don't get one and you'll be flipping burgers, son".

 

[ch33zw1z]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

However, production line tasks are still relatively simple tasks. Part a with part b then c... Any idiot that meets the need for a high school education and strength(if any) required for the job is qualified. There are a metric shit ton of those workers out there.... If we forced them off food stamps, housing, and outright cash assistance.

The problem is those jobs aren't here anymore.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Mike Rowe (yeah the TV guy who did dirty jobs) talks about things like this often. The US has for some reason got it into its head jobs such as working in a factory, working with your hands etc is bad. YOU NEED a college degree.

Working in a factory, for most people, _is_ bad. It's boring, monotonous, unrewarding work. It's like being in prison for a paycheck. And these days, it's typically not a very good living, unlike fifty years ago when unions demanded high wages for unskilled and semi-skilled production work.

Skilled trades are a different story. If there are shortages, the laws of supply and demand dictate that eventually those shortages will be filled.

so that thought killed trade schools. When i was in school we had the option to take classes like wood shop, mechanic training, electric etc. Now i don't know of any high school that offers anything like that.

Those classes a far cry from trade schools. They're as worthless as home economics classes that teach girls how to bake cakes. Trade schools and vocational technical training in high schools has not gone anywhere. They still exist.

I think in time this idea that you NEED a college degree is going to severely hurt the US. People who are willing to do such work though are going to be in demand and make a living and a good one.

Not. Manufacturing jobs are unlikely to come back to the US in any great numbers. Ever.

 

[Vic]

We've destroyed the infrastructure and the skill sets have gone. It's been so long that finding people who can teach what is needed are scarce. Once you kill a thing it's very hard to resurrect it. That's why major changes ought to be done very carefully, but they almost always aren't.

Exactly. The problem is that the infrastructure, including the labor force, needs to be rebuilt. The factories were closed and (if they're even still standing) are now obsolete. The old workers retrained to get jobs in other industries, and the new workers wisely chose not to train themselves in vocations for which there were no jobs available.
Now the factories have to be rebuilt and the workforce retrained, and that's going to cost a lot of money.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I talked to a local fellow with a small manufacturing business not long ago who said to me "Other companies have China. I have North Dakota." Turns out that his main supplier of machined parts is located somewhere in bumf*ck North Dakota, where they train farm wives in machining. Cheap labor (very cheap, apparently), great quality, close by, with short lead times.

If there's a hole to fill, it gets filled. Period.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The sad thing is that most of these kids likely see two options: Get a GOOD degree from an accredited university, or work at McDonalds. Isn't that what parents sometimes tell their kids? Isn't that what teachers and schools sometimes imply?
"Nowadays, competition is fierce and having a degree is STANDARD. You don't get one and you'll be flipping burgers, son".

Yeah, the US has the most educated burger flippers in the world.

As I said many of "Gen Y" do not want to work at demanding jobs, we have a 15% retention rate on new mechanics (18 - 26 year old). Most quit because they're exposed to the elements or can't handle living in a hotel for a few weeks working a job.

When I was a field service rep (1990-2008), I spent up to 11 months a year on the road away from home. Jobs normally were 2 to 3 months at a time and have a day or two at home before heading out on the next job. A job that only lasted a few weeks was considered a dream job.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Why would somebody hold in high regard a certification that can be obtained by anyone with a few months of short classes?


I'm not sure I understand your point, do you suggest that welders and AC repairmen should be held in higher regard than software developers and scientists?

You speak out of ignorance. Good wielders take time to develop. I don't know about AC repairmen but a good welder who constantly places down good, solid and clean wielding beads time and time again is not a person you can just pump out in a mere matter of months. The skill of wielding consistently good wields time and time again takes more then a few months of on the job experience to really hone and develop. Which is significantly more skill then it takes to flip a burger or hold a sign protesting the fact that you choose burger flipping as a career choice, which it was never meant to be in the first place. Hence why minimum wage hikes are slap in the face of skilled and certified workers because eventually it erodes their purchasing power along with the rest of the middle-class.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I talked to a local fellow with a small manufacturing business not long ago who said to me "Other companies have China. I have North Dakota." Turns out that his main supplier of machined parts is located somewhere in bumf*ck North Dakota, where they train farm wives in machining. Cheap labor (very cheap, apparently), great quality, close by, with short lead times.

If there's a hole to fill, it gets filled. Period.

From my experience women make the best welders and machinists hands down, they pay more attention to detail as well as spend less time BSing during working hours.

 

[Engineer]

Exactly. The problem is that the infrastructure, including the labor force, needs to be rebuilt. The factories were closed and (if they're even still standing) are now obsolete. The old workers retrained to get jobs in other industries, and the new workers wisely chose not to train themselves in vocations for which there were no jobs available.
Now the factories have to be rebuilt and the workforce retrained, and that's going to cost a lot of money.

Factories of 20-30 years ago aren't like today's factories either. Automation prices and advances have changed the game in many ways (production, safety, statistics, quality measurements, etc). Not to mention the price of automation has fallen greatly (example: Proximity switches, which pick up the location of metal parts in a machine, used to cost $70 to $100 each. I picked up 20 of them for $9.95 each last week). New robot prices have fallen too as well as more ability (vision system add-ons, smarter movements, etc).

 

[Pulsar]

They're talking about management skills, not workers. Being able to successfully run a manufacturing operation is the hard part, not finding some unskilled dumbass to screw on lugnuts. If it was the later problem we'd already have Mexicans doing it.

WRONG.

Let me explain how this works. I have a very unique expertise - I'm in American manufacturing and I see the problems related to this every day.

Almost ALL of your manufacturing equipment is German now. Why? Because their companies work together to monopolize the markets. If a German company needs a particular part, they don't go out and bid it across the globe. They purchase it from another German company. This has been going on for decades, and in that time they've managed to take a huge chunk of the manufacturing (CNC / Transfer Line) expertise out of the US. Mag, Leibherr, ABB, Kuka, etc.

The Japanese have been doing the same thing. It's the old maximum that if we don't hang together we will all certainly hang seperately.

So now, when we have a machine go down - the spare parts are European. The machines are European. The expertise is European (German / Swede / etc). The tight-tolerance transmissions are Japanese, as are some of the electrical and precision components.

We are in a situation where we don't HAVE a mass-manufacturing supply base. We have the job shops. We have people with high-tech CNC's that know how to run them. But all the parts that go INTO those CNC's are made overseas, and all the programming and engineering is done elsewhere. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

We've lost our manufacturing backbone. Thankfully, it looks like that's starting to reverse itself somewhat.

 

[Pulsar]

Working in a factory, for most people, _is_ bad. It's boring, monotonous, unrewarding work. It's like being in prison for a paycheck. And these days, it's typically not a very good living, unlike fifty years ago when unions demanded high wages for unskilled and semi-skilled production work.

Skilled trades are a different story. If there are shortages, the laws of supply and demand dictate that eventually those shortages will be filled.

Those classes a far cry from trade schools. They're as worthless as home economics classes that teach girls how to bake cakes. Trade schools and vocational technical training in high schools has not gone anywhere. They still exist.

Not. Manufacturing jobs are unlikely to come back to the US in any great numbers. Ever.

Where do you get this?

A job at the big 3 has a starting wage of 14+ dollars an hour for an unskilled position. However, you get access to union benefits that bump that ACTUAL wage of that job up to well over $50k a year.

My tier 1 employees (have been around 10 years) make $28 dollars an hour. With benefits, 70-90k a year. Most of them make well over $110k a year because of 1.5x overtime pay. In a factory, doing fairly unskilled labor.

These guys have small DVD players next to the line, books, 40 minutes of breaks a day, a lunch period, a coordinator who spells them to go the bathroom, and people all around them to talk to. There is zero real pressure unless you're a complete idiot and screw up.

Do you really think all those employees at the transplant factories are voting against Unionization because of their horrible working conditions and pay?

 

[Fern]

I suppose these manufacturing problems you guys mention could be valid in Walmart's case, but I'd like to give another perspective.

Not too long ago I worked with US companies and Walmart was well known for ruining many many. One might think getting a contract with Walmart to sell your products was a 'home run', but it was too often the 'kiss of death'.

The Walmart 'experience' often resulted in them being the only retailer to carry your product because of how cheap they could sell them. Your other retail customers ended up dropping you because they couldn't compete with Walmart.

And if Walmart merely was your largest customer (as opposed to the only one) they'd start pressuring you hard to lower your price, and therefore your margins. If they're your biggest, or only customer, they've got all the leverage.

Then Walmart would force you to fund their inventory, meaning they pay very slowly for what you deliver. I.e., you end up eating their interest costs.

Now maybe their problem is a lack of manufacturing base here. OTOH, maybe their problem is that no one wants to do business on their terms. I.e., their excuse is self-serving.

Fern

 

[moonbogg]

WRONG.

Let me explain how this works. I have a very unique expertise - I'm in American manufacturing and I see the problems related to this every day.

Almost ALL of your manufacturing equipment is German now. Why? Because their companies work together to monopolize the markets. If a German company needs a particular part, they don't go out and bid it across the globe. They purchase it from another German company. This has been going on for decades, and in that time they've managed to take a huge chunk of the manufacturing (CNC / Transfer Line) expertise out of the US. Mag, Leibherr, ABB, Kuka, etc.

The Japanese have been doing the same thing. It's the old maximum that if we don't hang together we will all certainly hang seperately.

So now, when we have a machine go down - the spare parts are European. The machines are European. The expertise is European (German / Swede / etc). The tight-tolerance transmissions are Japanese, as are some of the electrical and precision components.

We are in a situation where we don't HAVE a mass-manufacturing supply base. We have the job shops. We have people with high-tech CNC's that know how to run them. But all the parts that go INTO those CNC's are made overseas, and all the programming and engineering is done elsewhere. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

We've lost our manufacturing backbone. Thankfully, it looks like that's starting to reverse itself somewhat.

You're speaking language that we don't understand here. Americans think machines run on magic. They just work somehow. Open one up and mind = blown.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Where do you get this?

A job at the big 3 has a starting wage of 14+ dollars an hour for an unskilled position. However, you get access to union benefits that bump that ACTUAL wage of that job up to well over $50k a year.

Which means _what_, exactly? It's still $14/hour. If a $28k per year job has an "ACTUAL wage" (your words) of $50k per year, then one that pays a non-poverty salary of, say, $50k has an "ACTUAL wage" of over $70k.

Oh, and big 3 what? Auto manufacturers? They comprise a very small percentage of the labor force. There are some very good paying production jobs, without doubt. But they're few and far between these days.

How many job applicants do you think the big 3 have for every hire?

My tier 1 employees (have been around 10 years) make $28 dollars an hour. With benefits, 70-90k a year. Most of them make well over $110k a year because of 1.5x overtime pay. In a factory, doing fairly unskilled labor.

That's all well and good, but those jobs are the exception. I can spit out of my front door and hit three local manufacturers who start unskilled employees at minimum wage with zero benefits for 90 days.

These guys have small DVD players next to the line, books, 40 minutes of breaks a day, a lunch period, a coordinator who spells them to go the bathroom, and people all around them to talk to. There is zero real pressure unless you're a complete idiot and screw up.

You seem to think you're describing Shangri-La. I've been there. Most of those people are miserable in their jobs, but are very happy to have jobs.

Do you really think all those employees at the transplant factories are voting against Unionization because of their horrible working conditions and pay?

No, they're voting against unions to keep their jobs at whatever their current pay may be.

I'm certainly not arguing that you can't fill well-paying production jobs in this country. And not just jobs where the workers can watch DVDs all day. Pay well enough, or be located somewhere where there are few jobs, and people will do just about anything to make a living.

 

[Matt1970]

At least the article did blame Walmart and the rich Republicans for sending all the jobs away to begin with.

I missed the part where it blamed Republicans.

 

[Stewox]

America Destroyed By Design https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsKVyhuBf3c