Wal-Mart throws hissy-fit and prepares to shut unionized store

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:

Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!

And you really think they'd just go away? Pffttt Just because the Unions try to control the App programs now doesn't mean the programs would go away without the Unions. Infact when I was looking into the Electrical App program years ago it was through a non-union shop and a local comm. college.

Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG

Never heard of it

Yeah, union members(and apologists) have a habbit of suddenly not remembering or not knowing about "salting" when it is brought up...
Union Salting Objectives and Methods

CsG

yes - unfortunately like other areas of business - a "thugism" MO isn't unheard of. I don't think this is a problem with all Unions and it also not unheard of to use similar tactics in return to break up unions. Since one can't really expect an organization or business to have "morals" you have to be prepared for them to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.

Ah so it's OK for a union to be immoral because the corporation *might* be immoral? Now that's some pretty nice apologism...:laugh:
Salting is more prevalent than you seem to think and it seems to be on the increase since Union memberships have been declining for quite some time.

CsG

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:

Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!

And you really think they'd just go away? Pffttt Just because the Unions try to control the App programs now doesn't mean the programs would go away without the Unions. Infact when I was looking into the Electrical App program years ago it was through a non-union shop and a local comm. college.

Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG

Never heard of it

Yeah, union members(and apologists) have a habbit of suddenly not remembering or not knowing about "salting" when it is brought up...
Union Salting Objectives and Methods

CsG

Honestly I never heard it called that. I was thinking it was about Plumbers pouring salt down a drain to corrode plumbing so they could get more work repairing them.

During my time in the Union the Contractors and the Unions got along and worked well together so none of this ever came up. I only recall one time we went on strike and that lasted 1 week and our Union ended up giving as much as receiving. Other Unions respecting picket lines usually was enough to bring both sides to the table for honest and productive negotiations.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:

Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!

And you really think they'd just go away? Pffttt Just because the Unions try to control the App programs now doesn't mean the programs would go away without the Unions. Infact when I was looking into the Electrical App program years ago it was through a non-union shop and a local comm. college.

Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG

Never heard of it

Yeah, union members(and apologists) have a habbit of suddenly not remembering or not knowing about "salting" when it is brought up...
Union Salting Objectives and Methods

CsG

yes - unfortunately like other areas of business - a "thugism" MO isn't unheard of. I don't think this is a problem with all Unions and it also not unheard of to use similar tactics in return to break up unions. Since one can't really expect an organization or business to have "morals" you have to be prepared for them to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.

Ah so it's OK for a union to be immoral because the corporation *might* be immoral? Now that's some pretty nice apologism...:laugh:
Salting is more prevalent than you seem to think and it seems to be on the increase since Union memberships have been declining for quite some time.

CsG

way to put words in my mouth - i was pretty much agreeing with you that salting is bad but just pointing out that this sort of thing is common in the business world so you should be bitching about the corporations too.

keep being a tough guy on the boards though - since you can't do it in real life hopefully this makes you feel like a man.

 

[pm]

The Walmart just south of where I live, in Loveland, Colorado, will vote whether to unionize it's oil and lube department in about 2 weeks time on Feb. 25th.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: pm
The Walmart just south of where I live, in Loveland, Colorado, will vote whether to unionize it's oil and lube department in about 2 weeks time on Feb. 25th.

sounds like a slippery slope (oh yeah!).

I'll be here all week folks.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
What anyone is capable of and what people will and suited to do is two diffrent realities.

lol, speaking of reality, you might want to apply it here.

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Some people enjoy retail. I like selling stuff myself. (I sell upgrades for PC's and build custom rigs) So should retail people be crapped on becasue you think it is unskilled or a "stopgap"?
My money spends just as well as bill gates' money. My family is just as relevant as anyone elses and my taxes do not pay for any shoddier quality military equipment.
I am honest AND work hard. You seem to have this assumption that people just want to "kick back" if you wanted to kick back then soccer may be the proffesion for you I for one earn every penny.

thats great, you like your job and you bust ass doing it, but if theres a thousand other joes willing to do the same thing, the boss will hire the cheapest one that fits. Just like you usually buy the cheapest product at the store. Funny how that comes full circle all by itself.

 

[Zebo]

Salting? waaaa.

Lemme know when unions start shooting CEO's CAD like companies used to shoot them, then I'll worry about thier tactics.

 

[alent1234]

Originally posted by: pm
The Walmart just south of where I live, in Loveland, Colorado, will vote whether to unionize it's oil and lube department in about 2 weeks time on Feb. 25th.

ft collins is pretty nice

i forsee walmart closing all the oil and lube departments in all it's stores or severely cutting back their hours if the employees unionize

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Zebo
...
We created the minimum wage in 1938. Raised it in 1957, 1963, and 1996. Take a look at the inflation numbers for the years immediately following. And you'll find the rate of inflation went down right after these increases in the minimum wage.http://www.eh.net/hmit/inflation/inflationr.php

1957 3.38
1958 2.98
1959 .58
1960 1.72
1961 1.13
1962 1.12
1963 1.10
1964 1.37
1965 1.62
1966 2.92
1967 2.84
1968 4.26
1969 5.29


1996 2.96
1997 2.35
1998 1.51
1999 2.21
2000 3.38
2001 2.86

lol wow, someone fed you some BS, and you slurped it right up.

"1938. Raised it in 1957, 1963, and 1996" Only raised 3 times? ROFL, the minimum wage, according to the US Department of Labor, has been raised TWENTY times, counting its inception in 1938, up until 1997. (http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/chart.htm)

Heres a graph, showing years from 1938 to 1997, with the % the minimum wage was raised that year, and we'll use the same inflation rates from your URL (http://www.eh.net/hmit/inflation/inflationq.php) Since its hard to view tables in here, I just pasted it as a CSV, paste it into notepad, save as a .csv file, then open it in excel or any other spreadsheet if you want to play with the numbers.

Notice that only 5 times since 1938 has the inflation rate been in the double digits, all 5 times were soon after a minimum wage hike.

The average inflation following an increase in minimum wages is 6.6%, the average for all the other years is 3.0% So basically, raise minimum wage, and you more than double the rate of inflation. Thanks for playing.

Year,Date Wage Raised,MinWage,% Increase,%Inflation,,
1938,24-Oct-38,$0.25,,-1.74,,
1939,24-Oct-39,$0.30,20.00,-1.78,,
1940,`,$0.30,0.00,1.2,,
1941,`,$0.30,0.00,4.76,,
1942,`,$0.30,0.00,10.8,,
1943,`,$0.30,0.00,6.15,,
1944,`,$0.30,0.00,1.45,,
1945,24-Oct-45,$0.40,33.33,2.38,,
1946,`,$0.40,0.00,8.37,,
1947,`,$0.40,0.00,14.59,,
1948,`,$0.40,0.00,7.87,,
1949,`,$0.40,0.00,-1.04,,
1950,25-Jan-50,$0.75,87.50,1.05,,
1951,`,$0.75,0.00,7.64,,
1952,`,$0.75,0.00,2.26,,
1953,`,$0.75,0.00,0.95,,
1954,`,$0.75,0.00,0.31,,
1955,`,$0.75,0.00,-0.31,,
1956,1-Mar-56,$1.00,33.33,1.56,,
1957,`,$1.00,0.00,3.38,,
1958,`,$1.00,0.00,2.98,,
1959,`,$1.00,0.00,0.58,,
1960,`,$1.00,0.00,1.72,,
1961,3-Sep-61,$1.15,15.00,1.13,,
1962,`,$1.15,0.00,1.12,,
1963,3-Sep-63,$1.25,8.70,1.1,,
1964,3-Sep-64,$1.25,0.00,1.37,,
1965,3-Sep-65,$1.25,0.00,1.62,,
1966,`,$1.25,0.00,2.92,,
1967,1-Feb-67,$1.40,12.00,2.84,,
1968,1-Feb-68,$1.60,14.29,4.26,,
1969,1-Feb-69,$1.60,0.00,5.29,,
1970,1-Feb-70,$1.60,0.00,5.94,,
1971,1-Feb-71,$1.60,0.00,4.31,,
1972,`,$1.60,0.00,3.31,,
1973,`,$1.60,0.00,6.2,,
1974,1-May-74,$2.00,25.00,11.11,,
1975,1-Jan-75,$2.10,5.00,8.98,,
1976,1-Jan-76,$2.30,9.52,5.75,,
1977,1-Jan-77,$2.30,0.00,6.62,,
1978,1-Jan-78,$2.65,15.22,7.59,,
1979,1-Jan-79,$2.90,9.43,11.28,,
1980,1-Jan-80,$3.10,6.90,13.48,,
1981,1-Jan-81,$3.35,8.06,10.36,,
1982,`,$3.35,0.00,6.16,,
1983,`,$3.35,0.00,3.21,,
1984,`,$3.35,0.00,4.37,,
1985,`,$3.35,0.00,3.54,,
1986,`,$3.35,0.00,1.86,,
1987,`,$3.35,0.00,3.66,,
1988,`,$3.35,0.00,4.12,,
1989,`,$3.35,0.00,4.81,,
1990,1-Apr-90,$3.80,13.43,5.39,,
1991,1-Apr-91,$4.25,11.84,4.22,,
1992,`,$4.25,0.00,3.01,,
1993,`,$4.25,0.00,2.98,,
1994,`,$4.25,0.00,2.6,,
1995,`,$4.25,0.00,2.76,,
1996,1-Oct-96,$4.75,11.76,2.96,,
1997,1-Sep-97,$5.15,8.42,2.35,,

 

[Zebo]

Nice try but the 70's intrest rates are the cause for infaltion, it's not even disputed by economists.

So what we are left with is the other years. And thier is no coorelation with minimum wage hike any more than without it. Some years proceeding hike infaltion went down or lessened some went up. Some years far removed from minimum wage hike went up drastically like in 47', high intrest rates that year.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Nice try but the 70's intrest rates are the cause for infaltion, it's not even disputed by economists.

So what we are left with is the other years. And thier is no coorelation with minimum wage hike any more than without it. Some years proceeding hike infaltion went down or lessened some went up. Some years far removed from minimum wage hike went up drastically like in 47', high intrest rates that year.

so you are completely taking back your previous post?

First you tried to prove your own point using the numbers, after which I showed the real numbers, now your saying they dont matter?

Just admit when you get owned.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Zebo
Nice try but the 70's intrest rates are the cause for infaltion, it's not even disputed by economists.

So what we are left with is the other years. And thier is no coorelation with minimum wage hike any more than without it. Some years proceeding hike infaltion went down or lessened some went up. Some years far removed from minimum wage hike went up drastically like in 47', high intrest rates that year.

so you are completely taking back your previous post?

First you tried to prove your own point using the numbers, after which I showed the real numbers, now your saying they dont matter?

Just admit when you get owned.

Dude you just don't get it. The minimum wage hike is a reponse to inflation not the cause of it. look at the years preceeding the hikes. you have high inflation causeing congress to pass the law. I've enver heard one enconomist say minimum wages causes inflation, have you? link it please. Until then just admit you're guessing.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Zebo
Nice try but the 70's intrest rates are the cause for infaltion, it's not even disputed by economists.

So what we are left with is the other years. And thier is no coorelation with minimum wage hike any more than without it. Some years proceeding hike infaltion went down or lessened some went up. Some years far removed from minimum wage hike went up drastically like in 47', high intrest rates that year.

so you are completely taking back your previous post?

First you tried to prove your own point using the numbers, after which I showed the real numbers, now your saying they dont matter?

Just admit when you get owned.

Dude you just don't get it. The minimum wage hike is a reponse to inflation not the cause of it. look at the years preceeding the hikes. you have high inflation causeing congress to pass the law. I've enver heard one enconomist say minimum wages causes inflation, have you? link it please. Until then just admit you're guessing.

Then just raise minimum wage to $100/hour....

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Zebo
Nice try but the 70's intrest rates are the cause for infaltion, it's not even disputed by economists.

So what we are left with is the other years. And thier is no coorelation with minimum wage hike any more than without it. Some years proceeding hike infaltion went down or lessened some went up. Some years far removed from minimum wage hike went up drastically like in 47', high intrest rates that year.

so you are completely taking back your previous post?

First you tried to prove your own point using the numbers, after which I showed the real numbers, now your saying they dont matter?

Just admit when you get owned.

Dude you just don't get it. The minimum wage hike is a reponse to inflation not the cause of it. look at the years preceeding the hikes. you have high inflation causeing congress to pass the law. I've enver heard one enconomist say minimum wages causes inflation, have you? link it please. Until then just admit you're guessing.

you didnt even look at the numbers, I used the 2 years AFTER a rate hike, compared to all other years, and the difference is that those years are TWICE as high.

And your little interest rate excuse for the 70s is totally bogus, because the interest rates in the 80s were higher than the 70's, yet inflation was HALF as much as the 70's, go figure, there were TWO rate hikes in the 80s, but EIGHT in the 70's

got the interest rate data from the same site you linked earlier: http://www.eh.net/hmit/interest_rate/

I think your the one "just not getting it" you refuse to look at facts, you only see what you want to see, picking out a year here and a year there, when overall, your theory fails.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Who said Apprenticeship/certification programs wouldn't still exist if Unions went away? :roll:

Show me an Apprenticeship Program for the Building Trades that isn't backed or implemented by the Unions!

And you really think they'd just go away? Pffttt Just because the Unions try to control the App programs now doesn't mean the programs would go away without the Unions. Infact when I was looking into the Electrical App program years ago it was through a non-union shop and a local comm. college.

Ever heard of "salting" Red? Yep, it still happens all the time. Now tell me that practice is totally above board.

CsG

Never heard of it

Yeah, union members(and apologists) have a habbit of suddenly not remembering or not knowing about "salting" when it is brought up...
Union Salting Objectives and Methods

CsG

yes - unfortunately like other areas of business - a "thugism" MO isn't unheard of. I don't think this is a problem with all Unions and it also not unheard of to use similar tactics in return to break up unions. Since one can't really expect an organization or business to have "morals" you have to be prepared for them to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.

Ah so it's OK for a union to be immoral because the corporation *might* be immoral? Now that's some pretty nice apologism...:laugh:
Salting is more prevalent than you seem to think and it seems to be on the increase since Union memberships have been declining for quite some time.

CsG

way to put words in my mouth - i was pretty much agreeing with you that salting is bad but just pointing out that this sort of thing is common in the business world so you should be bitching about the corporations too.

keep being a tough guy on the boards though - since you can't do it in real life hopefully this makes you feel like a man.

And? Are there crappy corporations? Sure - never said there weren't. As I've stated - salting is quite prevelent in many areas - I've seen it and it's repercussions. Just because corporations may used questionable tactics to ward off unions does not mean Unions can ruin businesses or cause the mayhem "salting" can cause. Salting isn't a defense for immoral businesses.

Anyway, I sure hope you feel better after your childish little "tough guy" tantrum. If you want to take this to the personal level - fine, but I suggest for your sake, you don't

CsG

 

[bfulford7]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Zebo
Nice try but the 70's intrest rates are the cause for infaltion, it's not even disputed by economists.

So what we are left with is the other years. And thier is no coorelation with minimum wage hike any more than without it. Some years proceeding hike infaltion went down or lessened some went up. Some years far removed from minimum wage hike went up drastically like in 47', high intrest rates that year.

so you are completely taking back your previous post?

First you tried to prove your own point using the numbers, after which I showed the real numbers, now your saying they dont matter?

Just admit when you get owned.

Dude you just don't get it. The minimum wage hike is a reponse to inflation not the cause of it. look at the years preceeding the hikes. you have high inflation causeing congress to pass the law. I've enver heard one enconomist say minimum wages causes inflation, have you? link it please. Until then just admit you're guessing.

you didnt even look at the numbers, I used the 2 years AFTER a rate hike, compared to all other years, and the difference is that those years are TWICE as high.

And your little interest rate excuse for the 70s is totally bogus, because the interest rates in the 80s were higher than the 70's, yet inflation was HALF as much as the 70's, go figure, there were TWO rate hikes in the 80s, but EIGHT in the 70's

got the interest rate data from the same site you linked earlier: http://www.eh.net/hmit/interest_rate/

I think your the one "just not getting it" you refuse to look at facts, you only see what you want to see, picking out a year here and a year there, when overall, your theory fails.

Cmon now... think a minute. When the minimum wage goes up, businesses have to pay unskilled employees more (think fast food, walmart, etc) and that makes the profit margin go down. So how does a business counteract profit loss? Raise prices....ahhh it is so simple I don't see how the govt cannot see this. Of course, they just hope to foll the masses into believe they are doing something besides lining their own pockets.

Anyone else see my point??

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: bfulford7

Cmon now... think a minute. When the minimum wage goes up, businesses have to pay unskilled employees more (think fast food, walmart, etc) and that makes the profit margin go down. So how does a business counteract profit loss? Raise prices....ahhh it is so simple I don't see how the govt cannot see this. Of course, they just hope to foll the masses into believe they are doing something besides lining their own pockets.

Anyone else see my point??

Absolutely, have to get the wages down as low as possible, even lower than $3 hr U.S. equivalent Chineese workers get.

This way not even the Wally World employees would be able to afford anything in the very store they slave in. :thumbsup:

At least we would then look like China too

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Anyway, I sure hope you feel better after your childish little "tough guy" tantrum. If you want to take this to the personal level - fine, but I suggest for your sake, you don't

CsG

was that just a "I know you are but what am I" response? hilarious! :laugh:

 

[dswesse]

that's not true, and besides many of the grocery unions do more to hurt not only their workers, but their customer base as well. While I don't think that what wal mart is doing here is right, I also have seen instances of local grocery chain workers losing a significant part of their weekly pay check to union dues. In addition, some of the hourly rates that these union workers make is just not justified. There were stories where simple clerks were making like 15 dollars an hour. Explain to me why someone should go to college to get a 40k a year job, when they can be a hs dropout and get the same pay????