Waiting for ...... wikileaks

[JD50]

I'm neither. I'm not a big fan of isms/ists.

People fail to be nice when they can get away with it. They can get away with it when it's not known. You've heard the phrase 'an armed society is a polite society'? Knowledge/truth is the ultimate weapon.

First, the founders weren't Gods. While intelligent and brave, they're not the be-all/end-all. Second, they would likely be conflicted, like most people. They would see the good and bad inherent. Given their absolute distrust/hatred of strong centralized federal governments, I'm betting most of them would come down at least slightly on my side of the line on this one.

Yes, there is a need of some things to be confidential...troop movements, codes, frequencies, some identities, etc. That's about it though.

Wait, I thought the TRUTH was the ONLY thing that mattered?

 

[LegendKiller]

I'm neither. I'm not a big fan of isms/ists.

People fail to be nice when they can get away with it. They can get away with it when it's not known. You've heard the phrase 'an armed society is a polite society'? Knowledge/truth is the ultimate weapon.

First, the founders weren't Gods. While intelligent and brave, they're not the be-all/end-all. Second, they would likely be conflicted, like most people. They would see the good and bad inherent. Given their absolute distrust/hatred of strong centralized federal governments, I'm betting most of them would come down at least slightly on my side of the line on this one.

Yes, there is a need of some things to be confidential...troop movements, codes, frequencies, some identities, etc. That's about it though.

Sure you are, you think that a completely flat world, whereby nobody has an upper hand and we have no ability to gain from our efforts, that's socialism and/or communism in most aspects.

What the fuck is a nice/polite society? Do you really expect us to run around and be happy all of the time? Are you a fucking hippy?


They weren't "gods", but they were absolutely reasonable men who would recognize that not everything is public domain. This is why they absolutely would not support the release of state secrets. Not all of them advocated such a weak central government, even Jefferson expanded the role of the government during his Presidency. As always, the Constitution was never meant to be the house, it was meant to be the foundation. It was to adapt to modern times.

Your world view is simplistic and childish. I am assuming you're probably not even out of college.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Ok come on fellas, you're witnessing the biggest security breach in who-knows-how-long unfolding live, so let's stay on track and forget the village idiots. I'm feeling like I gotten a chance to witness the moon landing.

 

[JD50]

Any and all relationships require secrets. Secrets keep peace. Total disclosure only inflames tensions.

What would your wife/GF say if she heard EVERYTHING you ever said about her? How about your friends? What about your boss?

Without private conversations, nothing productive can be done. No advangtage can be had, or weakness hidden.

What next? Will you demand that all football huddles be recorded and given to the opposing team???

Who would have ever thought Legendkiller and I would agree?

That's why it's always retarded to use absolutes, as you can see he's already back peddling.

 

[LumbergTech]

Any and all relationships require secrets. Secrets keep peace. Total disclosure only inflames tensions.

What would your wife/GF say if she heard EVERYTHING you ever said about her? How about your friends? What about your boss?

Without private conversations, nothing productive can be done. No advangtage can be had, or weakness hidden.

What next? Will you demand that all football huddles be recorded and given to the opposing team???

Who would have ever thought Legendkiller and I would agree?

actually, yes, i would be willing to let me wife know what i say about her.

some people dont lie to their wives about things that would ruin their relationship

im not pretending to be mr perfect..i've lied, but its been about stupid things day to day issues ..and if for some reason she found it important to know some of these things i would divulge them

 

[Generator]

Wikileaks operatives should have been assassinated long before this has come to this point, the fact these people are still out there shows CIA, MI6, etc went off guard. No doubt, in retrospect, they'd have done that if they only could.
Now, while I do enjoy reading that, and the stuff being uncovered only reinforces my take on global politics, the fact this level of material is in the public domain is insane.

Obviously Mr. Manning or whoever responsible for this on the US side should get the chair.

Go back to Russia you fascist fuck.

 

[Amused]

actually, yes, i would be willing to let me wife know what i say about her.

some people dont lie to their wives

Really? Even when you were angry and drunk venting to a friend?

Maybe I'll give you that one, but what about your boss???

 

[LegendKiller]

Any and all relationships require secrets. Secrets keep peace. Total disclosure only inflames tensions.

What would your wife/GF say if she heard EVERYTHING you ever said about her? How about your friends? What about your boss?

Without private conversations, nothing productive can be done. No advangtage can be had, or weakness hidden.

What next? Will you demand that all football huddles be recorded and given to the opposing team???

Who would have ever thought Legendkiller and I would agree?

Moreover, what would all of your inlaws think if they knew exactly what you thought of them? How about any of your coworkers or acquaintances?

Of course, we're all supposed to be nice and happy and live in utopia where we all get along with everybody. There's no disagreements.

We may have our own disagreements around political aspects, but there's no fucking way I'd advocate we leave ourselves naked to the world. This babe-in-the-woods viewpoint is oafish and one dimensional. It removes all logic of the world, including the fact that there are people out there who will be jealous of what we haven, no matter if we're nice to them. Nobody agrees with us 100% of the time and to think that nobody will fuck us is just...dumb.

I'm a Minnesota Nice guy, grew up there for 22 years, but I'd don't walk around the bad parts of Minneapolis flashing a wad of cash and telling people I have thousands of dollars on my person.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Any and all relationships require secrets. Secrets keep peace. Total disclosure only inflames tensions.

What would your wife/GF say if she heard EVERYTHING you ever said about her? How about your friends? What about your boss?

Without private conversations, nothing productive can be done. No advangtage can be had, or weakness hidden.

What next? Will you demand that all football huddles be recorded and given to the opposing team???

Who would have ever thought Legendkiller and I would agree?

What makes you think you deserve advantage? Or anyone else? Again, it's not a competition. The goal is to all leave equally and peacefully, not one-up each other.

I'm pretty transparent. When people ask, I answer. If they don't like what they hear, that's on them, not me. Nothing is gained by secrets. To quote Merlin in Excalibur, "When a man lies he murders some part of the world."

I've already allowed that some things truly are sensitive and require confidentiality. You don't go broadcasting your social security, you don't give out safe combinations, etc. Similarly there are some FEW things that a government needs to safeguard. However, probably 99% of what is classified currently is not such information.

In my few years in the navy I know that almost none of the classified documents passing through my hands/view needed to be so. It was usually done as blanket cya, or to purposefully circumvent law/responsibility.

 

[LegendKiller]

Go back to Russia you fascist fuck.

That isn't "fascism" you moron. Its reality.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Sure you are, you think that a completely flat world, whereby nobody has an upper hand and we have no ability to gain from our efforts, that's socialism and/or communism in most aspects.

What the fuck is a nice/polite society? Do you really expect us to run around and be happy all of the time? Are you a fucking hippy?


They weren't "gods", but they were absolutely reasonable men who would recognize that not everything is public domain. This is why they absolutely would not support the release of state secrets. Not all of them advocated such a weak central government, even Jefferson expanded the role of the government during his Presidency. As always, the Constitution was never meant to be the house, it was meant to be the foundation. It was to adapt to modern times.

Your world view is simplistic and childish. I am assuming you're probably not even out of college.

38, been married, have a child, a degree in history/poli-sci plus another couple hundred credits on top of it in various fields, ex-military, etc. So, nice try, but swing and a miss.

 

[nageov3t]

I think it's one thing to expose things that voters probably have a right to know, like civilian death cover-ups, military casualty numbers, secret illegal prisons, etc... exposing diplomatic communications, however, makes me feel really uncomfortable, as interesting as I may find the information.

 

[LumbergTech]

Really? Even when you were angry and drunk venting to a friend?

Maybe I'll give you that one, but what about your boss???

i edited my original post to reflect a more honest statement, i have lied, but not the type of stuff you would expect in an "intelligence disclosure" on a marriage


I can appreciate the argument for need of secrecy within a context, but the future of humanity depends on the bigger picture of just what the hell is going on and I think that humans have a right to know.

I don't trust the people in power to sort through it appropriately and tell us what we need to know. There are very few people in our government that I would choose to be in their positions if it were solely up to me. I view the government as a group of individuals who have various interests that are not entirely in line with mine.

Your argument is basically that the smart people need to be in charge and the peons need to stfu and view them as religious figures basically.

I don't have that level of trust in the government to just say "pass" on getting a view on what the hell is going on.

Are you honestly surprised by any of the specific the preliminary findings?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Go back to Russia you fascist fuck.

I've never been to Russia. However, it seems like you haven't been anywhere if you think these measures aren't taken on a daily basis against those who might interfere with you sitting in front of your monitor, eating McDonalds or whatever while living off Chinese loans to your government and spewing shit on internet forums.

You are the reason the dumb public should be left cocooned in a shell of secrecy, reality is too tough to handle.

 

[LegendKiller]

What makes you think you deserve advantage? Or anyone else? Again, it's not a competition. The goal is to all leave equally and peacefully, not one-up each other.

I'm pretty transparent. When people ask, I answer. If they don't like what they hear, that's on them, not me. Nothing is gained by secrets. To quote Merlin in Excalibur, "When a man lies he murders some part of the world."

I've already allowed that some things truly are sensitive and require confidentiality. You don't go broadcasting your social security, you don't give out safe combinations, etc. Similarly there are some FEW things that a government needs to safeguard. However, probably 99% of what is classified currently is not such information.

In my few years in the navy I know that almost none of the classified documents passing through my hands/view needed to be so. It was usually done as blanket cya, or to purposefully circumvent law/responsibility.

So you think that we should have been open with Hitler?


The fact that you think we can live "open" and "nice" with everybody only shows you have no grasp of how the world is composed. It isn't composed of all "nice" people, it's composed of a statistical bell curve where some people will want more than others and will be willing to kill for it. Protection from that is essential, which is why our society has a government to protect us. The world isn't perfect.

However, the basic fact that you want to quote from a romantic novel, highlights that you have no grounding in reality.

 

[Amused]

What makes you think you deserve advantage? Or anyone else? Again, it's not a competition. The goal is to all leave equally and peacefully, not one-up each other.

I'm pretty transparent. When people ask, I answer. If they don't like what they hear, that's on them, not me. Nothing is gained by secrets. To quote Merlin in Excalibur, "When a man lies he murders some part of the world."

I've already allowed that some things truly are sensitive and require confidentiality. You don't go broadcasting your social security, you don't give out safe combinations, etc. Similarly there are some FEW things that a government needs to safeguard. However, probably 99% of what is classified currently is not such information.

In my few years in the navy I know that almost none of the classified documents passing through my hands/view needed to be so. It was usually done as blanket cya, or to purposefully circumvent law/responsibility.

Now see. this is where leftist ideology separates from reality.

Life is competition. It's how we got here. Humans did not rise to where we are today by being equal and peaceful. We got here clawing and fighting through evolution. It's part of the human condition. You can no more stop ambition than you can stop the sun from rising.

Life is not Star Trek communal fantasy. Humans are ambitous creatures who strive to one up each other constantly. It's what makes us great.

Reality check time, buddy.

 

[LumbergTech]

I think it's one thing to expose things that voters probably have a right to know, like civilian death cover-ups, military casualty numbers, secret illegal prisons, etc... exposing diplomatic communications, however, makes me feel really uncomfortable, as interesting as I may find the information.

I agree, although the fact that it makes me uncomfortable doesn't necessarily mean that I think it shouldn't happen. I agree there should be some level of non-disclosure, but I think it takes one hell of a debate on the subject to even scratch the surface of how it should be handled.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I think it's one thing to expose things that voters probably have a right to know, like civilian death cover-ups, military casualty numbers, secret illegal prisons, etc... exposing diplomatic communications, however, makes me feel really uncomfortable, as interesting as I may find the information.

Agreed

 

[Amused]

i edited my original post to reflect a more honest statement, i have lied, but not the type of stuff you would expect in an "intelligence disclosure" on a marriage


I can appreciate the argument for need of secrecy within a context, but the future of humanity depends on the bigger picture of just what the hell is going on and I think that humans have a right to know.

I don't trust the people in power to sort through it appropriately and tell us what we need to know. There are very few people in our government that I would choose to be in their positions if it were solely up to me. I view the government as a group of individuals who have various interests that are not entirely in line with mine.

Your argument is basically that the smart people need to be in charge and the peons need to stfu and view them as religious figures basically.
I don't have that level of trust in the government to just say "pass" on getting a view on what the hell is going on.

Are you honestly surprised by any of the specific the preliminary findings?

No, you misunderstand me. I distrust the government as well, but I do see a need for security and secrecy.

The bolded part is 180 degrees from my beliefs, as can be evidenced by my post history here.

 

[LumbergTech]

Now see. this is where leftist ideology separates from reality.

Life is competition. It's how we got here. Humans did not rise to where we are today by being equal and peaceful. We got here clawing and fighting through evolution. It's part of the human condition. You can no more stop ambition than you can stop the sun from rising.

Life is not Star Trek communal fantasy. Humans are ambitous creatures who strive to one up each other constantly. It's what makes us great.

Reality check time, buddy.

you think that life must be a web of lies to continue to go on?

it would disrupt our life in its current form, but im not convinced that lying must be used to the extent it is

 

[PrinceofWands]

Now see. this is where leftist ideology separates from reality.

Life is competition. It's how we got here. Humans did not rise to where we are today by being equal and peaceful. We got here clawing and fighting through evolution. It's part of the human condition. You can no more stop ambition than you can stop the sun from rising.

Life is not Star Trek communal fantasy. Humans are ambitous creatures who strive to one up each other constantly. It's what makes us great.

Reality check time, buddy.

Not all, just the worthless ones. And it doesn't make us great, it's our fundamental flaw/weakness that destroys peace and potential.

 

[LumbergTech]

No, you misunderstand me. I distrust the government as well, but I do see a need for security and secrecy.

The bolded part is 180 degrees from my beliefs, as can be evidenced by my post history here.

If the world is on the verge of a massive war, I think that we have a right to arrange our lives accordingly.

 

[LumbergTech]

No, you misunderstand me. I distrust the government as well, but I do see a need for security and secrecy.

The bolded part is 180 degrees from my beliefs, as can be evidenced by my post history here.

i apologize for miss-characterizing your beliefs

 

[LegendKiller]

i edited my original post to reflect a more honest statement, i have lied, but not the type of stuff you would expect in an "intelligence disclosure" on a marriage


I can appreciate the argument for need of secrecy within a context, but the future of humanity depends on the bigger picture of just what the hell is going on and I think that humans have a right to know.

I don't trust the people in power to sort through it appropriately and tell us what we need to know. There are very few people in our government that I would choose to be in their positions if it were solely up to me. I view the government as a group of individuals who have various interests that are not entirely in line with mine.

Your argument is basically that the smart people need to be in charge and the peons need to stfu and view them as religious figures basically.

I don't have that level of trust in the government to just say "pass" on getting a view on what the hell is going on.

Are you honestly surprised by any of the specific the preliminary findings?

The "future of humanity" dictates we deal with less than ideal circumstances not by letting everybody in on what we are doing. The future of humanity doesn't depend on allowing Iran every advantage possible or NK to know what we are doing. The future of humanity isn't a flat idealistic structure whereby Immanutjob and Kim Jong Il will all of the sudden be "nice". It isn't a situation where AQ suddenly gives up and decides to join the world.

If this were true we wouldn't exist as a country as we'd never have even been independent.

It's amazing to me that people take such a naive perspective on their fellow humans.

 

[LumbergTech]

Not all, just the worthless ones.

i can understand your defensiveness because of the way they are talking about your views, but i think that is a little unfair

competition is a healthy aspect of life, but it can be taken too far imo