Waiting for ...... wikileaks

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KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
Sorry. but most tribes worked in a hierarchy whereby the strongest gained the most wealth and notoriety, whether by strength of arms, battle prowess, innovation, intelligence...etc. The strongest societies were ones who were most successful intellectually and militarily. Intellectualism is a competition unto itself, those who are smarter prove their points and raise to the top.

This is also the main tenant behind Darwinism, the strongest, fittest, smartest, and most adaptable are the ones who have survived to present day. These are all competitions which require constant honing of skills, whether intellectual or physical. These also require motives that are not selfless, but selfish, whether to the person or the tribe/village/city/state/country.

Without working towards making the respective constituents stronger, they would be torn asunder by those who are stronger. There's always somebody stronger unless you gather allies and make your position unassailable.

This is fact, this is life. This is the entire human history.

This is true, but it's unfortunate that one of humanity's "strength's" is manipulation through deception, which is as old as history itself. The one thing that stands as old as that is a human being's sense of fairness, which, when violated to greatly, tends to fuck things up.

Just an endless revolution of the same bullshit. Rich vs poor, right vs left... all morphing and evolving towards global assimilation and compartmentalization. Which is really what we have right now, but it's just disorganized and conflicted.

Honestly though... people saying letting out accurate information on how our governments operate to the public is bad.... D:D:D:D:D:D:
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Jesus Christ... I had to unlurk again just to post after reading POW's fantasy laden drivel.

PrinceofWands: you are, without a doubt, one of the biggest fucking morons I have ever seen in my life. No one cares how many classes you have taken or how seriously you take your incredibly unrealistic and illogical ideals. You are a stark-raving mad lunatic whose last remaining vestiges of sanity have been consumed by an ever expanding ego that you have gained from posting on the Internet.. And, no, before you ask me -- I do not want to meet you in a parking lot to fight, tough guy.

yllus: I think the release of many of these diplomatic cables are ultimately quite harmful. It damages the relationship of trust that exists in sensitive diplomacy. Without some form of protection or secrecy, negotiations between states and governments could become paralyzed or devolve into a random crapshoot of snap-decisions and guesstimates.

I think Assange has deluded himself, much like POW, that he is serving some higher purpose here when truthfully he is just a shit-stirrer. He just happened to be lucky enough to run into Pfc. Bradley Manning before he was caught by the U.S. military. Assange's delusions and the few allies he has left have allowed to Assange to create a fantasy world in which his actions are righteous and just. I think he and his team are no longer capable of processing what the true worldwide ramifications will be as a result leaking these sensitive communications and documents.

No doubt remains in my mind that people WILL DIE because of these leaks, sensitive negotiations will be set back for years or ended, and the true effects of the leaks will not be known for a very long time.

I do not believe that all information should be free or available to the general public. I see the common good of protecting certain types of information (whether it be intellectual property or classified materials) .
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
I don't give a damn what other countries do. I don't live in other countries. I live in the US. When my country is doing underhanded things, I want to know about it.

We don't live in a bubble. What other nations do or don't do has an effect ( many case a direct effect) on this nation be it economic, militarily, politically etc. If we can't be secure in ensuring the secrecy behind our diplomatic affairs on delicate matters then we are going to be shoved to the rear by other nations willing to ensure the security and superiority of their own nation's future over ours.

If there are no assurance of privacy when we deal with other nations in private matters no one will trust us enough to work for a calmer solution behind closed doors. Releasing these documents directly effects our nation's ability to negotiate with other nations by undermining the trust we've built up for many decades around the world. I really don't know how much more clearer I can put it.
 
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KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
We don't live in a bubble. What other nations do or don't do has an effect ( many case a direct effect) on this nation be it economic, militarily, politically etc. If we can't be secure in ensuring the secrecy behind our diplomatic affairs on delicate matters then we are going to be shoved to the rear by other nations willing to ensure the security and superiority of their own nation's future over ours.

If there are no assurance of privacy when we deal with other nations in private matters no one will trust us enough to work for a calmer solution behind closed doors. Releasing these documents directly effects our nation's ability to negotiate with other nations by undermining the trust we've built up for many decades around the world. I really don't know how much more clearer I can put it.

I agree with all of this. Wikileaks does not target the US government or military specifically though. Your point reminds me of the UN (?) or whoever analyzing the US for human rights abuse very recently and many on here going into an uproar.
 
May 16, 2000
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Jesus Christ... I had to unlurk again just to post after reading POW's fantasy laden drivel.

To paraphrase an old axiom - If you're irritating them, you must be doing something right. I take no greater praise than people I consider horrible beings telling me how wrong I am.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
To paraphrase an old axiom - If you're irritating them, you must be doing something right. I take no greater praise than people I consider horrible beings telling me how wrong I am.

I agree with the majority of your sentiment, but as someone else pointed out to myself earlier. I should try less to insult and more to convince other people to be intelligent.

Regardless, it's pretty insane how so many can be against bringing the way our government operates into the open. I mean, we elect and pay them, how can so many be opposed to holding them accountable? How can so many be against understanding the operation of it!?!?!?!?
 
May 16, 2000
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I agree with the majority of your sentiment, but as someone else pointed out to myself earlier. I should try less to insult and more to convince other people to be intelligent.

Meaningless platitudes. Political correctness and social pandering at its worst. It's just another form of concealing the truth. Not to mention being impossible. You cannot teach a fish to be a bird.

I state my opinions, and the support for them, and people can feel however they choose about it.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
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The only real bad thing I've heard so far is the Saudi's and Egypt pressing us to bomb Iran. This is going to inflame the radicals in their countries and could be destabilizing.

The rest is mostly gossip and diplomatic BS.

I think pretty much everyone knew about the cyber attack being directed by the Chinese government already.

I find it highly doubtful that it was PFC Manning who provided this information, he may get all the blame in the end but I really don't see how that's possible. The people on Morning Joe seem to buy that line by suggesting he's some "expert hacker". He may have befriended that one guy but skillful deployment of a USB key doesn't make one a hacker.
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Anyone who supports transparency hates America. Got it.

There's the happy everything SHOULD work way, and then there is the Grungy, dirty way things DO work.
Why people can't understand that is beyond me. Liberal tree hugging San Francisco-nites are not the norm across the world. Quite the opposite infact. Being nice and playing fair doesn't work, and will never work.
Kitten, what I think I'm saying is, sometimes, shit happens, somebody's gotta deal with it, and who're you gonna call?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,355
19,536
146
You go on, and keep rationalizing your greed and self-centeredness in an attempt to not have to off yourself out of guilt. It won't change the fact that you're an ignorant, selfish, worthless waste of human flesh.

Medicine isn't usually invented by those suffering from it, nor even those likely to ever do so. Theoretical physics or pure mathematics advances the individual how again? Tesla, Michelangelo, Matzeliger, etc. And I could go on, and on, and on.

The vast majority of inventions are exactly as I've described.

I asked you to name anonymous inventions where the inventor wanted NO notoriety, status, or profit.

You provided none. You even provided names of great men who gained stature with their innovations and art.

As for Matzeliger, WTF? Because he dies before he could see a profit from his patent, he was altruistic??? Seriously? Why the fuck did he patent his invention???

Tesla was certifiably mad. He lost his fortune because he was mad. Many artists do. Look up Billy Joel. Just because an artist or inventor is bad with money does NOT make them altruistic. Finally, if Tesla didn't want profit or noteriety for his work, why did he file a lawsuit against Marconi???

Michelangelo was spurred on by his successes and notoriety. The fucker was known for being arrogant and selfish. Just because he lived like a bum doesn't mean he didn't create for selfish reasons. He created for his own ego. He was an artistic solitary man who didn't give a fuck about altruism. He was in constant competition with other artists for fame and recognition. He was all ego.

While your anti-capitalist professor was making you drink the kool-aid, he intentionally left out the other great motivator that drives ambition: Ego.

Ego is not altruism. Quite the opposite.

In short, you failed. Yet your ideology won't let you see that.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
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I agree with the majority of your sentiment, but as someone else pointed out to myself earlier. I should try less to insult and more to convince other people to be intelligent.

Regardless, it's pretty insane how so many can be against bringing the way our government operates into the open. I mean, we elect and pay them, how can so many be opposed to holding them accountable? How can so many be against understanding the operation of it!?!?!?!?

Because there's more to it than that. As I said before, if our government is committing a crime, then by all means, leak away. Otherwise, diplomatic negotiations, strategy, intelligence estimates, etc should remain secret. I'm sure there are a few documents in that massive dump that DO implicate our government in something that we need to know about, but the vast majority seem to be pretty hard to justify.

If you're negotiating with someone, the last thing you want is for them to know your exact position, because that guarantees you'll always get the worst possible deal.

I can identify how leaking these documents makes the position of the US worse. Can you show how leaking these documents makes the position of the citizens better?
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
This round, as with the previous ones, doesn't seem to produce any shocking or damning (to the US) surprises. It does, however, confirm a lot of the rumors we never get confirmed, especially with all the Arab leaders calling for Ahmadinejad's head but too chickenshit to say anything publicly. If anything, it gives me a lot of confidence that the state department is doing the best possible job managing many of these situations.

So this is what I don't understand about Assange. He seems to think that he's releasing the modern version of the Pentagon Papers, but in releasing such relatively benign documents, he's only harming the ability of nations to negotiate peace, the thing he claims he wants.
 

Binarycow

Golden Member
Jan 10, 2010
1,238
2
76
We have a lot of murderers on our forum (people who support it). George Orwell wouldn't have had the balls to write about a state where the people demand killing dissenters.

isn't it ironic that the people that are most vocal about how information-oppressive China is are also the same people that want to murder wikileaks people.

I would tell them to move to China where the government regime fits their views but they would just come back with some stupid comments about patriotism.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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I asked you to name anonymous inventions where the inventor wanted NO notoriety, status, or profit.

You provided none. You even provided names of great men who gained stature with their innovations and art.

As for Matzeliger, WTF? Because he dies before he could see a profit from his patent, he was altruistic??? Seriously? Why the fuck did he patent his invention???

Tesla was certifiably mad. He lost his fortune because he was mad. Many artists do. Look up Billy Joel. Just because an artist or inventor is bad with money does NOT make them altruistic. Finally, if Tesla didn't want profit or noteriety for his work, why did he file a lawsuit against Marconi???

Michelangelo was spurred on by his successes and notoriety. The fucker was known for being arrogant and selfish. Just because he lived like a bum doesn't mean he didn't create for selfish reasons. He created for his own ego. He was an artistic solitary man who didn't give a fuck about altruism. He was in constant competition with other artists for fame and recognition. He was all ego.

While your anti-capitalist professor was making you drink the kool-aid, he intentionally left out the other great motivator that drives ambition: Ego.

Ego is not altruism. Quite the opposite.

In short, you failed. Yet your ideology won't let you see that.

And I clearly told you that 'anonymous' had nothing to do with what we were discussing. I asked YOU to name a commercial invention, to which I would counter with 3 non-commercial creations. I noticed you didn't do that.

You don't get to bait and switch the debate just because you don't have a leg to stand on without doing so.

As to the ones I mentioned, that was a direct response to your post about the invention of fire, weapons, etc. Since that post had nothing to do with anything else I presumed it followed that mine would have only to do with that post, but apparently you lack even rudimentary comprehension skills to enable you to follow that simple threading.

Moreover, the core argument throughout this sub-argument has been ONLY - innovation/creation is significantly more a product of accident, human nature, or humanitarian reasons than commercial reasons, and I have upheld it at every turn. Everything else is the bullshit you're trying to change or obscure the argument with.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
This whole leaks business should not really be news to anyone.

If you thought that back-channel diplomacy was all rosy, then it was about time you had a peak behind the curtain.

Dimplomacy: say one thing in public and do another while negotiating in secret with your allies...and enemies.

The bigger question is, who leaked it from the US side, and what is the State Department doing using such insecure lines of communication? And finally, just how many people will die and how much cover will be blown as a result?
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,355
19,536
146
And I clearly told you that 'anonymous' had nothing to do with what we were discussing. I asked YOU to name a commercial invention, to which I would counter with 3 non-commercial creations. I noticed you didn't do that.

You don't get to bait and switch the debate just because you don't have a leg to stand on without doing so.

As to the ones I mentioned, that was a direct response to your post about the invention of fire, weapons, etc. Since that post had nothing to do with anything else I presumed it followed that mine would have only to do with that post, but apparently you lack even rudimentary comprehension skills to enable you to follow that simple threading.

Moreover, the core argument throughout this sub-argument has been ONLY - innovation/creation is significantly more a product of accident, human nature, or humanitarian reasons than commercial reasons, and I have upheld it at every turn. Everything else is the bullshit you're trying to change or obscure the argument with.

Bullshit. There has been no "bait and switch." I said "ambition" and "competition" drives invention and innovation. You said altruism does. You've been proved wrong, over and over again.

Hell, one of the guys you listed DID do it for the money. LOL!!! ALL of the people you listed took profits for their work.

NONE of the people you mentioned invented or created for altruistic reasons. Not one. Creation and innovation in human nature IS driven by ambition, be it profit, or ego, or both.

You've been full of shit from the start, and have had your ass handed to you.

My original post that got your dander up:

Now see. this is where leftist ideology separates from reality.

Life is competition. It's how we got here. Humans did not rise to where we are today by being equal and peaceful. We got here clawing and fighting through evolution. It's part of the human condition. You can no more stop ambition than you can stop the sun from rising.

Life is not Star Trek communal fantasy. Humans are ambitous creatures who strive to one up each other constantly. It's what makes us great.

Reality check time, buddy.

See that? Competition and ambition drive innovation and invention.

EVERY SINGLE FUCKING EXAMPLE YOU POSTED was driven by ambition and competition. Not one was altruistic.

So just stop. Your anti-capitalist teacher has filled your head with bullshit. So much so the "ambition" and "competition" meant only "commercial" in your communist kool-aid muddled brain.

Fact: Innovation and invention are driven by ambition and competition. It is what made humans great. We didn't get here by being all soft and cuddly like the hippy bullshit Care Bears and Smurfs you grew up with. We got here clawing, kicking and screaming. Constantly trying to one up each other, and ourselves. Be it ego, self preservation, or profit, the drive to innovate and invent is pure ambition and selfish.

Hell, evolution itself is COMPETITION. Do you deny we evolved???

And even when we do co-op we do it for purely selfish reasons: Our own survival and safety.
 
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shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Bullshit. There has been no "bait and switch." I said "ambition" drives invention and innovation. You said altruism does. You've been proved wrong, over and over again.

Hell, one of the guys you listed DID do it for the money. LOL!!! ALL of the people you listed took profits for their work.

NONE of the people you mentioned invented or created for altruistic reasons. Not one. Creation and innovation in human nature IS driven by ambition, be it profit, or ego, or both.

You've been full of shit from the start, and have had your ass handed to you.

but he took a class......
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Very easy to point at the failures. Can you point at the successes too? You can't? Well, too bad; that's the ungrateful part in intelligence work. When you do it well, no one knows. Public only hears about the fuckups. All I'm saying the fact we're now free to read classified state department cables is one of these failures, but I wouldn't rush to judge the intelligence agencies on that alone.

What failure?

Didn't they do exactly what they were asked and found some evidence of something that could perhaps be constructed as WMD by politicians?

Don't blame intelligence for the politicians picking and choosing information while disregarding what the intelligence firms both said the whole time.

Which pretty much is in line with what you just stated, what the public knows is that the politicians were decieved by intelligence firms which is the opposite of what happened.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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POW, if you are a peace loving commie you should definently be against this leak since it hurts diplomatic relations and may very well change the way diplomacy is handled, especially when it comes to nations where dipolomacy is needed the most.

It's fairly well known to everyone in the free world that we make deals with dictators and military regimes that would ruin their support in their home nation if it became known to the people, the leaders don't want to appear weak. Now you might think that this would help the people but what it really will do is make it harder to make deals with the dictators and military regimes, this is a recepie for less diplomacy and if you have any sense what so ever you know that isn't a good thing.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Ok, lets examine those:

First, the Printing Press. Let's first remember that presses have actually existed since around 1000 or before in various forms. Gutenbergs 'invention' was moveable metal type to print on cheaper paper with cheaper ink (and even that is in doubt since concurrent development was found in Korea, and other versions well on their way). The REASON he pursued that invention was his oft-lamented irritation that books were only available to the wealthy. Specifically, that the common man couldn't hope to own a bible to enrich his soul as well as his mind. Let's also not forget that he did not significantly profit from his invention, dying in relative anonymity and poverty until later records would bring his story to the world.

The steam engine is even more convoluted. We know that it was nearly accomplished in 1st century Rome, and there are reports of others since, though none were workable or common knowledge. However, they all worked on principles developed LONG before they were perfected. However, to keep the discussion simple we'll talk about the Newcomen engine (based on Papin and Savery). First, we need to understand that Papin was a medical doctor with a random interest in vacuums to improve medical treatment (his work was the precursor to the autoclave), and Savery was a military man who did his experiments on his own time and money (with his stated purpose being to protect miners by improving drainage, and to supply towns with water from remote areas). So the foundations of the steam engine was entirely humanitarian. Then Newcomen (a baptist preacher) came along and put it all together. There is no information about his 'purpose', but given his upbringing around mines and their conditions, and his calling as a baptist preacher, one could easily speculate that there was at least as much humanitarian calling as any other - ESPECIALLY since he made very little from his invention (same as most inventors).

I'm not sure why you link an Edison article to talk about the Telegraph. He was an operator in his youth, but did not invent the theory, nor the application. He offered some improvements (like quadroplex), but seriously, he's not the central figure. You could talk about Morse, who was involved in the commercial application of his refinements, but that would leave out Cooke & Wheatstone, Henry, Sturgeon, etc. Moreover you have to look at why Morse even had an interest. He was on an oceanic trip and realized that the work of Ampere could be utilized to exchange communication and intelligence (scientific and government related specifically). He then worked on it himself until he had it solved. The initial purpose of it was for the government to implement as an infrastructure device. It was only when the government didn't see how it could be implemented in such a way as to cover costs that it was given to private business interests.

The light bulb is another convoluted one, that your link over-simplifies. It wasn't invented by Edison. There were a dozen or more previous working light bulbs. Edison merely built on their genius 70 years later. You can claim that Edison successfully completed the first American commercialization, but NOT that he 'invented' the light bulb.

We're dealing with subjective thresholds here, but I don't see any of those that were INVENTED for commercial reasons...commercial use at least in part, perhaps...but not driven by commerce for commerce.
None of them were invented for commercial reasons under your limited, selective translation of historical fact. If you studied the history of these people a bit closer, you'd find out how these things really happened. Gutenberg was in debt and developed his idea (moveable type) to buy himself out of it. Newcomen invented his steam engine (the first steam engine which was actually useful for anything) specifically to remove water from commercial mines. Accidentally linked Edison for the last two instead of the last one... I intended to link to Gauss (though I could have just as well linked to Schilling. These guys both accomplished pretty much the same thing in producing a functioning telegraph system, but no one cared because they didn't use them for anything noteworthy, commercialize, or sell them. Edison is known for the light bulb because he invented the first one that actually mattered (after inventing an additional 2000 varieties or so that don't). It mattered because it could be commercialized. What good does it do anyone if they have to invent (or build) their own light bulb if they want electric light in their house? Commercialization is the reason these inventions are meaningful. You can call that greed, but it's reality.

I thought of another seminal invention which was achieved strictly for profit: spectroscopy. He developed spectroscopic methods for the Munich Philosophical Instrument Company, which made buttloads of money with these ideas. Was he less important than Faraday, who discovered the principle laws governing motors and dynamos? I don't think so. Faraday developed the laws but never created a useful device from them. There's nothing wrong with that, but without commercialization, his ideas were just that - ideas. They cannot help people until a device is constructed utilizing those ideas to achieve some practical end. Going even further back, Galileo worked on telescopes to make money. He also worked on inventing timepieces, again to make money. It's been a long time since the days of the gentleman amateur scientist, of which Galileo was really the first, but even he made his mark because he commercialized his ideas. I recommend this book if you want to learn the real motivations behind the greatest scientists/inventors in history. While simple curiosity is certainly a factor, Edison didn't slave away in the lab for the greater good.
 

IceBergSLiM

Lifer
Jul 11, 2000
29,932
3
81
Most of this information isn't very sensitive anyways. It should be available freely under the FOIA. The government hides too much behind this "secret" label. They have forgotten who they work for or are supposed to be working for.

What is it now there are something like 1 million americans working with top secret clearances. How "sensitive" is this data that 1 in 300 people has access to it.

I hope this leak brings some greater accountability.
 
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crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
Most of this information isn't very sensitive anyways. It should be available freely under the FOIA. The government hides too much behind this "secret" label. They have forgotten who they work for or are supposed to be working for.

What is it now there are something like 1 million americans working with top secret clearances. How "sensitive" is this data that 1 in 300 people has access to it.

I hope this leak brings some greater accountability.

Accountability for what, exactly? Of the cables that have been put out today, is there anything that the US has done horribly wrong? There is certainly a lot of talk about things other nations are hiding, and it tips the cards for a lot of opponents of Iran too scared to talk openly (which is why, among other reasons, documents such as these are classified). What in these documents would cause the US to change their diplomatic practices?
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Accountability for what, exactly? Of the cables that have been put out today, is there anything that the US has done horribly wrong? There is certainly a lot of talk about things other nations are hiding, and it tips the cards for a lot of opponents of Iran too scared to talk openly (which is why, among other reasons, documents such as these are classified). What in these documents would cause the US to change their diplomatic practices?

my interest in knowing the content of the documents is not to prosecute the united states for war crimes, it is to see how honest our government is being with us about their future intentions