Wait... we can 'lose' a plane in this day and age?

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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
Originally posted by: Phokus
I'd like to know why the plane didn't try to go around the storm, wtf. Their computers should pick that stuff up, right?

They didn't go around it because it has to be a lot more severe to avoid. Planes fly through them all the time, and not always above/below (obviously, the pilot tries to pick the safest altitude).

Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: guyver01
Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
I think this is a fair question, and perhaps something the media needs to ask. These people aren't idiots so I'm sure there is a reason why they can't find it, but I'd like to know what it is.


GPS... telemetry.... transponders.... all that stuff needs power.

if there's a fire or explosion in an avionics compartment, or an engine... the stuff won't get power... so youre not gonna have an exact spot.... just a point of origin or last known coordinates.... and you begin your search from there.

if a plane is travelling at 35,000 feet, and loses power... it can glide to a crash in the ocean 50,100,500 miles, etc, from its last known position... you dont just lose power and drop like a rock.

Except their is a ram air generator on most planes that can be deployed in the event that all electricl power is lost in the plane. IT is a Turbine that drops from the fuselage and the moving air spins a propeller which in turns turns a generator providing for some power. It is mechanically activated.

Which is completely worthless if the electric system is fried. Still.

Or if it, the electrical system, and the stuff you want to power with it are blown to bits. Lightning strikes happen uneventfully all the time, but something happened this time. Either scenario may be equally likely. Only people with no imagination act like the only scenarios are those such systems were made for. News flash: If those systems clearly did not work, then obviously you should be thinking outside the box. Even bringing them up is barking up the wrong tree.

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
It makes no sense if they knew the weather was that bad that they would choose to fly into it anyways. Where was taking precaution? Why was the flight not rerouted? There are going to be some tough questions that need to be answered by the airline...

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Whatever happened, it was a FREAK accident. Planes fly through lightning storms and endure direct strikes all the time. It doesn't mean that lightning strikes never cause crashes, but crashes happen in broad daylight with sunny skies too. By your logic a pilot and airline would have to answer for crashing in the fairest of weather because they did not reroute.

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
[1.]That kind of weather is known to be extremely dangerous. They would have had this information prior to takeoff. [2.]That weather was more than just "ordinary turbulence" and at the first sign of it a prudent person would have diverted the flight.
[1.] No. It isn't.
[2.] No. it wasn't.

As I already said, passenger planes fly through them all the time. Airports don't often close up shop in a regular thunderstorm (delays, yeah). Planes get hit by lightning all the time. Just because they don't fly through a storm every time they fly doesn't make it "more than ordinary."

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Well - I am sorry to tell all the plane engineers on here that the A330-200 does have one backup system that relies on batteries, in addition to the 3 other electrical systems which are turbine driven.
There is also a backup system that is mechanical. wich gives the pilot control of the rudder and the horizontal stabilizer.
This is only intended to make it possible for the pilots to fly straight and level, so they can reboot/restart/fix at least one electronic system. Mechanical backup is not designed to fly and navigate the aircraft (even in still air).

And it sounds like the plane did have a locator on board: the system supposedly is called ADS-B transmits the plane's position, altitude, groundspeed and ROC/ROD at half-second intervals continuously during the flight on 1090MHz.

Doesn't help if the plane was blown to bits or everything was fried.
 

coolVariable

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
3,724
0
76
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: coolVariable
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: DrPizza

Okay, let's give them a "last known location" 10 minutes before the actual crash. Or was it 5 minutes? Or 1 minute? 10 minutes of uncertainty, at 600mph, is a huge area. Let's narrow it down & assume that its course didn't change by more than 45 degrees. Under that assumption, 600mph, up to 10 minutes, that leaves an area of 7853 square miles.
For the sake of reference, that's 90% the size of the entire state of New Jersey.


7853 <<<<<<<<<<<< 41,100,000

these guys dont even know which side of the atlantic to look...
it would seem to me that this type 0f hint would be at least SOMEWHAT useful.


its one thing to look for a needle in a haystack, but if you can eliminate 99.99980487% of the haystack to look in, that is a pretty good headstart.


That's what I was saying earlier.
But all the rocket scientists here obviously know better.

I think you missed the point. It wasn't that such knowledge doesn't narrow down the search area, but 10 minutes (as you stated earlier; prior to knowledge of the ADS-B transmitter transmitting every 1/2 second) is a HUGE area to comb! You seemed to be implying that "hey, if they knew where it was 10 minutes before it went down, it should be easy to find" - mathematically, I showed that if you knew where it was 10 minutes before it went down, you still have an area nearly the size of the state of NJ to search.

I think you missed the point. The first articles about the incident quoted the officials in charge of the search saying that the plane might have gone down close to LatAm ... or might have gone down as far away as Africa/the Azores.
I found that to be BS.

And your math is off:
Plane like that flies aprox 550mph.
It won't change course by 90 degrees.
10 minutes of flight is max 100 miles (less but lets make the math easier).
I would say the area that it is likely to have flown into is approximately an equilateral triangle with a side length of 100 miles.
That's an area of 4330 square miles.
Or - to put it into perspective: the equivalent of a square 65 miles times 65 miles.

Guinea (Afr) to Brazil (S.Am) is 1,800 miles. I am sorry - based on the above I take offense if someone suggests that the plane could have been as far as 1,800 miles away from the where they are searching. In 2009 with modern technology that would have been a sorry state of affairs.




 

pradeep1

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2005
1,099
1
81
At the height (7-9 miles up) and velocity (300-600 mph) the plane would be travelling, even if they had a radar lock on the plane, if it broke up in the air, the debris field could be spread over several hundred square miles of ocean. Remember the space shuttle Columbia disaster in 2003? The debris field was spread out over a vast area covering Nacogdoches county in East Texas all the way into Louisiana, Arkansas, etc.

And this was over land. Of course the plane was not travelling at mach 22.8, but still, this is a daunting task find the debris in the ocean even if the last known GPS location, heading, and velocity was known. Unlike land, the ocean causes most of the debris to sink to the bottom and not remain on the surface.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
There is a specific "turbulent air penetration" speed for each aircraft type. For an A332 at FL350 that speed is .80 mach. You would slow down to this speed if you were flying into storms or turbulence. This is to ensure that the airframe is not over stressed.

I think they may be looking at a runway collision that this aircraft had in 2006 at CDG in Paris. It collided with an A321. The A332's wing was damaged and the A321's tail was severely damaged. The A332's wing damage was considered minor at the time, but they will be checking to see if that assessment was accurate.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
Reports coming in on Airliners.net that none of the debris recovered so far is from AF447 and the fuel slick found on the surface is not jet fuel.
 

nublikescake

Senior member
Jul 23, 2008
890
0
0
Originally posted by: zinfamous
no treadmill involved and you guys are still going strong.....

whoa.

If by "strong" you mean crazy! The experts haven't a clue and these guys think they know better. :disgust:
 

darkxshade

Lifer
Mar 31, 2001
13,749
6
81
WTF :confused:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/...plane.crash/index.html

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) -- The Brazilian air force said that debris picked up Thursday near where officials believe Air France Flight 447 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean was not from the plane.


Friends and relatives of the 228 people aboard Air France Flight 447 attend a memorial service Thursday in Brazil.

1 of 2 "It has been verified that the material did not belong to the plane," Brig. Ramon Borges Cardoso told reporters in Recife, Brazil, about the material recovered Thursday. "It is a pallet of wood that is utilized for transport. It is used in planes, but on this flight to Paris, there was no wooden pallet."

He added that oil slicks seen on the ocean were not from the plane either and that the quantity of oil exceeded the amount the plane would have carried.

"No material from the airplane was picked up," he said.

The announcement left open the question of whether other debris that had not yet been plucked from the ocean might be from the plane.

On Wednesday, searchers recovered two debris fields and had identified the wreckage, including an airplane seat and an orange float as coming from Flight 447. Officials now say that none of the debris recovered comes from the missing plane.

Helicopters had been lifting pieces from the water and dropping them on three naval vessels.

The debris was found about 650 kilometers (400 miles) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha Islands, an archipelago 355 kilometers (220 miles) off the northeast coast of Brazil.

Earlier Thursday, a public interfaith service was held for the 228 victims at a Catholic church in Rio de Janeiro.

"Whoever has faith, whoever believes in God, believes in the eternity of the soul," said Mauro Chavez, whose friend lost a daughter on the flight. "This means everything."

Investigators have not determined what caused the plane to crash Monday. The flight data recorders have not been recovered, and the plane's crew did not send any messages indicating problems before the plane disappeared.

The aircraft's computer system, however, relayed about four minutes of automated messages indicating a loss of cabin pressure and an electrical failure, officials have said.

Investigators said the plane flew through lightning and turbulence, but they don't know what role, if any, the weather might have played in the disaster.

A report in France suggested the pilots may have been flying at the "wrong speed" for the violent thunderstorm they encountered early Monday before the Airbus A330's systems failed.

Le Monde newspaper reported that Airbus was sending a warning to operators of A330 jets with new advice on flying in storms. No one at Air France immediately responded to a call from CNN.

Foul play has not been ruled out.

A Spanish pilot reported seeing an "intense flash" in the locale where Flight 447 went down Monday, the Spanish carrier Air Comet told CNN on Thursday, confirming a report in the Spanish daily El Mundo.

The co-pilot and a passenger on the flight between Lima, Peru, and Lisbon, Portugal, also said they saw a light.

"Suddenly, we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, which followed a descending and vertical trajectory and which broke up in six seconds," the unidentified captain wrote to his airline.

Air Comet said a written copy of the pilot's report has been sent to Air France, Airbus and the Spanish civil aviation authority.

The Airbus A330 went down about three hours after beginning what was to have been an 11-hour flight. No survivors have been found.

Most of the people on Flight 447 came from Brazil, France and Germany. The remaining victims were from 29 other countries, including three passengers from the United States.

Is there another unaccounted for downed plane in that region that I don't know about?
 

hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
0
Originally posted by: darkxshade
WTF :confused:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/...plane.crash/index.html

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (CNN) -- The Brazilian air force said that debris picked up Thursday near where officials believe Air France Flight 447 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean was not from the plane.


Friends and relatives of the 228 people aboard Air France Flight 447 attend a memorial service Thursday in Brazil.

1 of 2 "It has been verified that the material did not belong to the plane," Brig. Ramon Borges Cardoso told reporters in Recife, Brazil, about the material recovered Thursday. "It is a pallet of wood that is utilized for transport. It is used in planes, but on this flight to Paris, there was no wooden pallet."

He added that oil slicks seen on the ocean were not from the plane either and that the quantity of oil exceeded the amount the plane would have carried.

"No material from the airplane was picked up," he said.

The announcement left open the question of whether other debris that had not yet been plucked from the ocean might be from the plane.

On Wednesday, searchers recovered two debris fields and had identified the wreckage, including an airplane seat and an orange float as coming from Flight 447. Officials now say that none of the debris recovered comes from the missing plane.

Helicopters had been lifting pieces from the water and dropping them on three naval vessels.

The debris was found about 650 kilometers (400 miles) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha Islands, an archipelago 355 kilometers (220 miles) off the northeast coast of Brazil.

Earlier Thursday, a public interfaith service was held for the 228 victims at a Catholic church in Rio de Janeiro.

"Whoever has faith, whoever believes in God, believes in the eternity of the soul," said Mauro Chavez, whose friend lost a daughter on the flight. "This means everything."

Investigators have not determined what caused the plane to crash Monday. The flight data recorders have not been recovered, and the plane's crew did not send any messages indicating problems before the plane disappeared.

The aircraft's computer system, however, relayed about four minutes of automated messages indicating a loss of cabin pressure and an electrical failure, officials have said.

Investigators said the plane flew through lightning and turbulence, but they don't know what role, if any, the weather might have played in the disaster.

A report in France suggested the pilots may have been flying at the "wrong speed" for the violent thunderstorm they encountered early Monday before the Airbus A330's systems failed.

Le Monde newspaper reported that Airbus was sending a warning to operators of A330 jets with new advice on flying in storms. No one at Air France immediately responded to a call from CNN.

Foul play has not been ruled out.

A Spanish pilot reported seeing an "intense flash" in the locale where Flight 447 went down Monday, the Spanish carrier Air Comet told CNN on Thursday, confirming a report in the Spanish daily El Mundo.

The co-pilot and a passenger on the flight between Lima, Peru, and Lisbon, Portugal, also said they saw a light.

"Suddenly, we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, which followed a descending and vertical trajectory and which broke up in six seconds," the unidentified captain wrote to his airline.

Air Comet said a written copy of the pilot's report has been sent to Air France, Airbus and the Spanish civil aviation authority.

The Airbus A330 went down about three hours after beginning what was to have been an 11-hour flight. No survivors have been found.

Most of the people on Flight 447 came from Brazil, France and Germany. The remaining victims were from 29 other countries, including three passengers from the United States.

Is there another unaccounted for downed plane in that region that I don't know about?

It could be a truck's wreckage, not a plane.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
It makes no sense if they knew the weather was that bad that they would choose to fly into it anyways. Where was taking precaution? Why was the flight not rerouted? There are going to be some tough questions that need to be answered by the airline.

Another thought, since I don't understand, but it looks like lots of the plane is in tiny pieces. So, was that from impact with the ocean at high speed, or perhaps, was the plane blown up in flight?

It also looks like the beacons on the black boxes are going to be out of range for recovery because of the depth of the water there, about 21,000 feet.

Um, planes fly through turbulence all the time. If it's a huge storm you're having to fly miles and miles outside the flight path just to get back into it. If it's normal, why not fly through it?

plans do not fly through storms they go around them. they are very dangerous the wind can come from any direction and tear a plane apart.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
126
The debris is pretty obviously from a boat. Not sure why they ever thought it was from AF447 except for the slick on the water.

AF447 is still missing. We no longer know if it broke up at altitude or not.

I'm surprised no one has suggested that AF447 hit a boat on it's way into the ocean...
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: hiromizu
maybe it was wind sheer, which can sheer a plane apart

you are either trying to be funny or a moron. either way stop posting.
 

hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
So they have no idea where this plane is....
Interesting

If you really think about it, it's probably out of fuel by now....which means it's probably stuck somewhere, perhaps like I said before, in a really dense cloud and has trouble getting out of it. Things like this happen all the time, it's just not widely reported.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: hiromizu
Originally posted by: Aimster
So they have no idea where this plane is....
Interesting

If you really think about it, it's probably out of fuel by now....which means it's probably stuck somewhere, perhaps like I said before, in a really dense cloud and has trouble getting out of it. Things like this happen all the time, it's just not widely reported.

are you a retard?
 

hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
0
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: hiromizu
Originally posted by: Aimster
So they have no idea where this plane is....
Interesting

If you really think about it, it's probably out of fuel by now....which means it's probably stuck somewhere, perhaps like I said before, in a really dense cloud and has trouble getting out of it. Things like this happen all the time, it's just not widely reported.

are you a retard?

a retard with a non current PPL
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
The solution is obvious... the airliner must be in 1855 parked next to the DeLorean.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: hiromizu
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: hiromizu
Originally posted by: Aimster
So they have no idea where this plane is....
Interesting

If you really think about it, it's probably out of fuel by now....which means it's probably stuck somewhere, perhaps like I said before, in a really dense cloud and has trouble getting out of it. Things like this happen all the time, it's just not widely reported.

are you a retard?

a retard with a non current PPL

thank god its not current.
 

coloumb

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,069
0
81
LOST... [someone already said this didn't they?]... or "close encounters of the 3rd kind"... or "bermuda triangle" disappearance.

Unless maybe they're looking in the wrong place (ie: Castaway movie) - the plane lost communication - but managed to fly off course for an extended period of time and crashed elsewhere...
 

hiromizu

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
3,405
1
0
Originally posted by: Aikouka
The solution is obvious... the airliner must be in 1855 parked next to the DeLorean.

I kinda wonder, does the flux capacitor depend on airspeed or groundspeed to engage at 88mph? Because last I saw the movie, it actually did 88 in the air and then vanished. At the time I don't recall it having pitot tubes so it must be groundspeed, which means it must have some sort of GPS which I didn't see. Weird.