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Wait for the r520 or buy a 7800gtx?

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southpawuni - I would trust a first release of ATI drivers more than I would nVidia if the subject was DirectX. The jury is still out on ATI's new OpenGL, but if it was OpenGL, I would trust nVidia slightly more. I have seen green screens with new nVidia drivers more often than new ATI drivers over the last 2 years doing live video work.

As for the subject at hand... Can you wait and why? The 7800 is now if you can find one. But why is a 6800 or X850 not good enough? Do you play at 1600x resolutions with AA/AF all the way up? Do you really need to double 60fps? Are you really "future proofing"? Would upgrading to a Dual Core better suit?

The only reason I have seen to wait for a 520 is the support for H.264 decode with hardware. ATI said they would be doing it. That may not work day one though, but who knows.

It will not be twice the speed of a 7800 and weighing X800/X850 vs 6800, I would suspect that the ATI card will be faster than nVidia's in the same set of applications that ATI currently exceeds at. It may be faster where it is not currently, but it may be faster than you need. Remember that Anandtech now tests at max resolution because otherwise the bottleneck is the CPU. Maybe a 6800/850 and a CPU upgrade are the best mix for you?
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
IF your system is powerful enough to drive a 7800GTX...
IF you have the cash...
IF you have games that can make use of the 7800GTX...
IF you can't wait....

buy the $473 BFG OC 7800GTX.

IF you have twice the cash, buy two and go for SLI.

That is a lot of "IFs" 🙂
Click to expand...

Not as many as with the R520:
You could say for that:
IF your system is powerful enough to drive a R520...
IF you have the cash...
IF you have games that can make use of the R520...
IF you can wait....
If they release it at all.....
If it's even worth buying in comparison........
Click to expand...

IF ATI will still be alive...

 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
IF your system is powerful enough to drive a 7800GTX...
IF you have the cash...
IF you have games that can make use of the 7800GTX...
IF you can't wait....

buy the $473 BFG OC 7800GTX.

IF you have twice the cash, buy two and go for SLI.

That is a lot of "IFs" 🙂
Click to expand...

Not as many as with the R520:
You could say for that:
IF your system is powerful enough to drive a R520...
IF you have the cash...
IF you have games that can make use of the R520...
IF you can wait....
If they release it at all.....
If it's even worth buying in comparison........
Click to expand...

If you're gonna go in that direction, might as well add

If the r520 is out, and is better, are you gonna
a) Feel stupid because you could have gotten a better card, or
b) Feel stupid because you could have waited a little and paid less money for the same card.

You could get a 7800 now, and be happy with it, but if you want to make an informed buying decision, you should wait and see how it's gonna stack up against the competition before you shell out $500+ for the card. Although, if you plan to sell the 7800 as soon as the r520 turns out to be better, then you could buy it now and not worry about the r520.

Also to clear up some other points in this thread:
32 pipes will offer a huge advantage, because they don't just determine the fillrate, but the shader performance of a card. A modern card has a pixel shader in each pixel pipe, and modern games rely heavily on pixel shaders. If the r520 will have 32 pipes, it will kill the 7800 flat out, no doubt about it.

It is true, however, that if you dont have a fast A64 cpu to push the card, then either a 7800gtx or a r520 will be a waste of money.
 
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Originally posted by: BouZouki
The ONLY thing you can go off of is whats available today, and like I said its going to be extremely hard to top the 7800GTX performance for the same price with the R520
Click to expand...

Hard?

The rumored specs show it will blow it away with ease, 600 mhz core clock and 32 pipe lines.

Like I said, the specs are not confirmed by ATI.

I will admit the Inq has been right many times recently.

if it does it will have its own flaws like poor driver support, high power requirements, or dual slot cooling).
Click to expand...

I have used ATI drivers, probably more than you, they seem fine to me.

Power requirments? You know nothing of the R520's power requirments, I bet many people thought the GTX would suck a whole lot of power, its actually cooler than the 6 series.

From my experiance, ATI drivers work fine.
Click to expand...

You have a R520 with Septembers driver release??

WOW you a fkin awesome.

For all we know it could have horrible drivers, you dont know and neither do I. I'm just saying all the variables that could affect the R520..

and sometimes its good to keep the possible problems in mind, it shows just how exceptional the 7800GTX is TODAY.
Its drivers ARE great, it IS cool and requires little power and IS a single slot solution. And at a reasonable price at that.. with SLI support, the only dual graphics solution available... which is also mature and stable.

This is all up in the air for this R520.

Sorry.
Click to expand...


Stop trying so hard southpawni or whoever you are.

Yes, lets assume without evidence ATI is going to release crappy drivers for their top of the line card.

Hmm, looking at the past, the 9xxx line went fine, the x8xx line went fine, not many driver bugs there? I'm just using comon sense.

I'm just saying all the variables that could affect the R520..
Click to expand...

This has got to be the stupidist thing i've heard yet.

OKAY, so until the actuall card gets here, you're gonna be running your mouth for a month about every possible thing that could go wrong with it when we know nothing about the card.

 
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Originally posted by: BouZouki
The ONLY thing you can go off of is whats available today, and like I said its going to be extremely hard to top the 7800GTX performance for the same price with the R520
Click to expand...

Hard?

The rumored specs show it will blow it away with ease, 600 mhz core clock and 32 pipe lines.

Like I said, the specs are not confirmed by ATI.

I will admit the Inq has been right many times recently.

if it does it will have its own flaws like poor driver support, high power requirements, or dual slot cooling).
Click to expand...

I have used ATI drivers, probably more than you, they seem fine to me.

Power requirments? You know nothing of the R520's power requirments, I bet many people thought the GTX would suck a whole lot of power, its actually cooler than the 6 series.

From my experiance, ATI drivers work fine.
Click to expand...

You have a R520 with Septembers driver release??

WOW you a fkin awesome.

For all we know it could have horrible drivers, you dont know and neither do I. I'm just saying all the variables that could affect the R520..

and sometimes its good to keep the possible problems in mind, it shows just how exceptional the 7800GTX is TODAY.
Its drivers ARE great, it IS cool and requires little power and IS a single slot solution. And at a reasonable price at that.. with SLI support, the only dual graphics solution available... which is also mature and stable.

This is all up in the air for this R520.

Sorry.
Click to expand...


Stop trying so hard southpawni or whoever you are.

Yes, lets assume without evidence ATI is going to release crappy drivers for their top of the line card.

Hmm, looking at the past, the 9xxx line went fine, the x8xx line went fine, not many driver bugs there? I'm just using comon sense.

I'm just saying all the variables that could affect the R520..
Click to expand...

This has got to be the stupidist thing i've heard yet.

OKAY, so until the actuall card gets here, you're gonna be running your mouth for a month about every possible thing that could go wrong with it when we know nothing about the card.
Click to expand...

Or we could listen to you about how great it is.. when we dont know anything about it?

I'm just showing how many things the Geforce7 has going for it, and we dont know if the R520 will even match it on ONE of its criteria.. let alone all its price/performance/heat/power consumption/single slot/SLI qualities and capabilities of the GF7.

Pretty optimistic to say its going to match the GF7.
Let alone match it on all accounts yet exceed it.. I think you are the one out of line here, not me.
 
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Originally posted by: BouZouki
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Originally posted by: BouZouki
The ONLY thing you can go off of is whats available today, and like I said its going to be extremely hard to top the 7800GTX performance for the same price with the R520
Click to expand...

Hard?

The rumored specs show it will blow it away with ease, 600 mhz core clock and 32 pipe lines.

Like I said, the specs are not confirmed by ATI.

I will admit the Inq has been right many times recently.

if it does it will have its own flaws like poor driver support, high power requirements, or dual slot cooling).
Click to expand...

I have used ATI drivers, probably more than you, they seem fine to me.

Power requirments? You know nothing of the R520's power requirments, I bet many people thought the GTX would suck a whole lot of power, its actually cooler than the 6 series.

From my experiance, ATI drivers work fine.
Click to expand...

You have a R520 with Septembers driver release??

WOW you a fkin awesome.

For all we know it could have horrible drivers, you dont know and neither do I. I'm just saying all the variables that could affect the R520..

and sometimes its good to keep the possible problems in mind, it shows just how exceptional the 7800GTX is TODAY.
Its drivers ARE great, it IS cool and requires little power and IS a single slot solution. And at a reasonable price at that.. with SLI support, the only dual graphics solution available... which is also mature and stable.

This is all up in the air for this R520.

Sorry.
Click to expand...


Stop trying so hard southpawni or whoever you are.

Yes, lets assume without evidence ATI is going to release crappy drivers for their top of the line card.

Hmm, looking at the past, the 9xxx line went fine, the x8xx line went fine, not many driver bugs there? I'm just using comon sense.

I'm just saying all the variables that could affect the R520..
Click to expand...

This has got to be the stupidist thing i've heard yet.

OKAY, so until the actuall card gets here, you're gonna be running your mouth for a month about every possible thing that could go wrong with it when we know nothing about the card.
Click to expand...

Or we could listen to you about how great it is.. when we dont know anything about it?

I'm just showing how many things the Geforce7 has going for it, and we dont know if the R520 will even match it on ONE of its criteria.. let alone all its price/performance/heat/power consumption/single slot/SLI qualities and capabilities of the GF7.

Pretty optimistic to say its going to match the GF7.
Let alone match it on all accounts yet exceed it.. I think you are the one out of line here, not me.
Click to expand...

Unless Ati has been sleeping on the job for the last few years, it damn better match the gf7 to say the least. Assuming they didnt hire a bunch of lazy a$$es that designed the FX cards, chances are if a card comes out a few months later, it would be better than the one that came out earlier.
 
To wait or not to wait... I have the same problem -- err, addiction really.

I have an X850XT-PE and I'm really contemplating ditching it to throw a couple 7800's in my DFI. My problem is that I play HL2 and Source related mods frequently, an area that ATI traditionally excels (or rather spanks) nVidia in. Ya, Valve favored ATI in developing the rendering paths sure, but who cares why. It just is. My only other love is City of Heroes (and I'm sure CoV when it's released), in which I only get 30 to 40 fps at 1920x1200. At this resolution, my ATI card is just begging me to stop (and throwing thermal protection warnings at me left and right even though it's stock clocked).

Now before you cry fanboy, know that I have a 6800GT in my secondary machine. A card I love dearly, but purchased in AGP so upgrading was hopeless.

So my dilemma? Buy two 7800's or wait and buy an XT-PE CrossFire card and mobo once they're available. It would cost more for two G7's and I could have them now, but what of ATI's dominance in Source powered games? Not to mention the inherient cool-factor of having CrossFire (it's just cool to have new tech. you know that.).

So whereas my problem isn't exactly the same, it's in the same ballpark. I'm personally going to wait until both the CrossFire cards are widely available AND the R520 has been released and tested in CrossFire as well.


I have to comment on that driver statement though:
ATI hasn't had a botched driver release in many.. many years. That said, Nvidia has had numerous SLI issues. Not-to-mention the fact that the drivers need to support the game in SLI for it to even work -- whereas CrossFire will work in 'SLI' regardless of the game. I personally think CrossFire stands to be stronger than SLI i nthe areas that matter to me after reading all there is to read about it thus far. ATI makes a great card and have for years. So does Nvidia. I like the offerings from both companies, and honestly not one more than the other.

AMD vs. Intel is another story though... ya, you could call me an AMD fanboy 😉
 
Originally posted by: munky
Unless Ati has been sleeping on the job for the last few years, it damn better match the gf7 to say the least. Assuming they didnt hire a bunch of lazy a$$es that designed the FX cards, chances are if a card comes out a few months later, it would be better than the one that came out earlier.
Click to expand...

You haven't been paying attention:

ATI has NEVER matched nVidia. They bought a company and product that was poised to match nVidia (ArtX/R300) and rode on that for two year. Those are the only two years since the Riva 128 was launched way back in 1997 that ATI has surpassed nVidia in both features and performance. They were second or third all the other years.

So it's no "given" that they will come up with a competitive product.

 
You dont consider the X8xx line and 6xxx line competitive?

x800 Vanilla - 6600GT.

x800XL - 6800GT

x850XT PE - 6800U

The x700 was crap, the x800P was a good card, it overclocked like mad which could have put it on par with the 6800GT.

 
The x800 had availability problems. It's become more competitive as of late with some price cutting and the x800 XL, but frankly the 6xx series just walked all over the x800 last year.
 
Originally posted by: zendari
The x800 had availability problems. It's become more competitive as of late with some price cutting and the x800 XL, but frankly the 6xx series just walked all over the x800 last year.
Click to expand...

It's a week of surprises, Zendari and I agree on this.

Originally posted by: BouZouki
You dont consider the X8xx line and 6xxx line competitive?

x800 Vanilla - 6600GT.

x800XL - 6800GT

x850XT PE - 6800U

The x700 was crap, the x800P was a good card, it overclocked like mad which could have put it on par with the 6800GT.
Click to expand...

Nope, I've never considered them competitive because the nV4X series offered comparable performance with a much more advanced feature set and much younger drivers. (not to mention giving devs the ability to write the stuff well be seeing next year while ATI shackled them with 2003 tech)
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: zendari
The x800 had availability problems. It's become more competitive as of late with some price cutting and the x800 XL, but frankly the 6xx series just walked all over the x800 last year.
Click to expand...

It's a week of surprises, Zendari and I agree on this.

Originally posted by: BouZouki
You dont consider the X8xx line and 6xxx line competitive?

x800 Vanilla - 6600GT.

x800XL - 6800GT

x850XT PE - 6800U

The x700 was crap, the x800P was a good card, it overclocked like mad which could have put it on par with the 6800GT.
Click to expand...

Nope, I've never considered them competitive because the nV4X series offered comparable performance with a much more advanced feature set and much younger drivers. (not to mention giving devs the ability to write the stuff well be seeing next year while ATI shackled them with 2003 tech)
Click to expand...


Well lets see, HDR pretty much killed 6800GT's in Farcry, especially at 1600x etc and didn't allow you to use AA. I doubt 6600GT's could even run Farcry HDR without having a slide show.

Their wern't many SM3 games, one, two, maybe three.

Soft shadows didn't allow AF ( Not sure about this ).

I know AA/AF is a must for me.



 
Originally posted by: BouZouki
I'm not talking about availability, i'm talking about the cards being competitive.
Click to expand...

On a strict performance basis? Yes and no.

At the $400 pricepoint, the x800 pro wasn't really competitive. At the $500 pricepoint, the XT was generally faster than the Ultra, but you really couldn't find one for $500. Not that the Ultra was much of a product either, it was completely outshone by the cheaper 6800 GT.

There were a couple $300 deals for a 6800 GT (I jumped on one) that moved a lot of cards. But you basically had 4 options last year:

Buy a readily available $400 6800 GT, or cheaper if you got a good deal..
Buy a readily avialable $380 x800 pro. But why would you do this?
Buy a not quite as available $550-600 6800 U.
Go on a witchhunt for an x800 XT.

Plus the vanilla 6800 nu came out of the gate at only $270-280 street price. Wasn't much of an upgrade for 9800 owners IMO, but it was a decent card. Then of course the 6600 GT came out in Sept/Oct and blew away the FX/9800 cards and probably cannibalized the vanilla 6800 as well. What did ATI respond with? Another hard to find x700 series of cards that nobody bought.

No gamer, at least on a tech forum, desired a card less than the 6600 gt, so where did ATI fit in? You can't look at performance without price and availability.


Other than a borked PVP (and this really bothered me due to having an athlon xp) the 6800 GT was an excellent card.

Well lets see, HDR pretty much killed 6800GT's in Farcry, especially at 1600x etc and didn't allow you to use AA. I doubt 6600GT's could even run Farcry HDR without having a slide show.

Their wern't many SM3 games, one, two, maybe three.
Click to expand...
SM3 was basically irrelevant for me in purchasing the card.
 
Well AT is highly nV but you go to other forums like xtreme or hardocp they seem ati based so I would'nt make sweeping conclusions about ati not fitting in.

 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Well AT is highly nV but you go to other forums like xtreme or hardocp they seem ati based so I would'nt make sweeping conclusions about ati not fitting in.
Click to expand...

*shrug*. That's their issue. I have my opinion and I stick to it.

I do hope though in the future ATI doesn't release 10 versions of the same core that barely differ from each other, and that Nvidia has stricter rules on product specification. Far too many different products around.
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: munky
Unless Ati has been sleeping on the job for the last few years, it damn better match the gf7 to say the least. Assuming they didnt hire a bunch of lazy a$$es that designed the FX cards, chances are if a card comes out a few months later, it would be better than the one that came out earlier.
Click to expand...

You haven't been paying attention:

ATI has NEVER matched nVidia. They bought a company and product that was poised to match nVidia (ArtX/R300) and rode on that for two year. Those are the only two years since the Riva 128 was launched way back in 1997 that ATI has surpassed nVidia in both features and performance. They were second or third all the other years.

So it's no "given" that they will come up with a competitive product.
Click to expand...

The only time nvidia surpassed ati in BOTH features and performance was in the gf4 and earlier days. After that came the 9700/9800, which was a win for ati, and during the x800/x850 days, nvidia had more features (aka sm3 and HDR), but it did not have the same level of performance in a single card. Only with SLI did nvidia get the performance crown, but for twice as much money.

The 6800u could not match the x800xt, even more so the x850xt. The x800xl was pretty evenly matched to the 6800gt, and the x800 vanilla matches the 6800. The only definitive win for nvidia was the 6600gt which beat the previous generation 9800p, but now with the x800 going for $150, the 6600gt is left in the dust as well.

The 6800 series had a few days in the sun with a few games that utilized sm3, but took a heavy hit when some effects such as HDR were enabled. For the 6600gt, sm3 and HDR are useless, unless you enjoy watching slideshows. Now, when newer titles are becomig more demanding, even the 6800 series cards are starting to struggle, as the infamous FEAR beta demo shows. By the time Unreal 3 hits the shelves, the 6800gt/ultra will be relegated to the midrange class, and running games with max eye candy will no longer be an option for those cards. Thus, the benefits of the new features (sm3 and HDR) are limited to a few current games, and those who wanted to future-proof themselves are no better off than those with a x800xt.

The only definitive win for nvidia now is the 7800, and only because ati has not launched the r520. That could turn around in a few months.
 
Originally posted by: munky

The only definitive win for nvidia now is the 7800, and only because ati has not launched the r520. That could turn around in a few months.
Click to expand...

I think the GF6 would get the win last generation too.. Yes the X800s were competitive but generally less available and simply not the better cards.. that much is sure.

If theres a winner (and yes, there is) last gen, its the Geforce6 and the SLI launch.
For me, SLI coming out of the gates and working pretty damn well from Day1 with a killer chipset like the Nforce4 hands the win to NV, toss in meeting current Microsoft DX standards and having extras like SS and HDR..
yeah, ATI was outclassed..

sure if you are an ATI devotee a X800XL was a decent bargain that helped you avoid buying an Nvidia card but the Geforce6 lineup was the winning lineup period.


The only definitive win for nvidia now is the 7800, and only because ati has not launched the r520. That could turn around in a few months.
Click to expand...
Or it could get even worse for ATI too.
NV30=R520
 
Originally posted by: munky
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: munky
Unless Ati has been sleeping on the job for the last few years, it damn better match the gf7 to say the least. Assuming they didnt hire a bunch of lazy a$$es that designed the FX cards, chances are if a card comes out a few months later, it would be better than the one that came out earlier.
Click to expand...

You haven't been paying attention:

ATI has NEVER matched nVidia. They bought a company and product that was poised to match nVidia (ArtX/R300) and rode on that for two year. Those are the only two years since the Riva 128 was launched way back in 1997 that ATI has surpassed nVidia in both features and performance. They were second or third all the other years.

So it's no "given" that they will come up with a competitive product.
Click to expand...

The only time nvidia surpassed ati in BOTH features and performance was in the gf4 and earlier days. After that came the 9700/9800, which was a win for ati, and during the x800/x850 days, nvidia had more features (aka sm3 and HDR), but it did not have the same level of performance in a single card. Only with SLI did nvidia get the performance crown, but for twice as much money.
Click to expand...

Munky, that's exactly what I said? My point was that you can't necessarily expect ATI to put out a competitive product when they lost the Riva 128, TNT 1, TNT2, GF1, GF2, GF3, G4 gen and were outclassed on the 6800 gen. They only really won the 9700P/9800P gen with a product they bought from an American company. To presume they will have a better part than the 7800GTX because it's coming out later is a guess at best, I haven't heard of them buying another chip to sell, so they may be headed back to second place to stay. 3dfx and Rendition were kicking them around before nVidia.
You guys give ATI WAY too much credit when all they've really done that is first tier is buy ArtX?

 
IMO, if you can pick up a BFG GTX when it's down to $450 or so, I don't think you'll regret it. I really expect R520 to debut at similar prices as the GTX, so, higher than usual. And if R520 won't be here until late September, even if the GTX cost you, say, $50 more than a comparable ATI card, it doesn't seem like money badly spent. Obviously waiting for benchmarks will let you make the most informed decision, but I don't think we'll see a repeat of FX 5800 vs. 9700P. I think both nV's and ATI's cards will be pretty even (and this gen even in featureset, unlike X800 vs. 6800).

But we really don't know anything about R520 to even guess about performance or price. Yeah, I've been hearing 9k 3DM05, but that's not too meaningful a number to me without other reference points (namely, card specs or other benchmarks).

Edit: I do expect it to be competitive with the GF7 series, and to maybe have an IQ trick up its sleeve (AA with HDR). I don't agree with Rollo's dour assessment of their recent engineering.
 
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