VW Faking Emissions Values

[BoberFett]

DEF is also used by MB, BMW, Ford, etc.

I'm sure all diesels will bet getting very thorough testing soon, so we'll find out how the rest fare.

 

[Jimzz]

I'm sure all diesels will bet getting very thorough testing soon, so we'll find out how the rest fare.

I'm sure all major manufactures are re-testing them as well. Even if they did not alter the programing or do anything intentional they know the EPA and many others will be looking hard now.

 

[ChronoReverse]

The same group that detected the VW cheating did test a BMW X5 and found it wasn't cheating but that doesn't mean all or even most other vehicles aren't cheating. Even VW's larger diesels are compliant after all.

 

[Brian Stirling]

The same group that detected the VW cheating did test a BMW X5 and found it wasn't cheating but that doesn't mean all or even most other vehicles aren't cheating. Even VW's larger diesels are compliant after all.

Who, precisely, did find the cheating? I understand the EPA was involved, but was it them or a contractor or, perhaps, another car maker? The last option is really interesting and I'd not be one bit surprised if Ford or GM or some other car maker said to the EPA to look into the software. I think it highly likely that every car maker buys cars from the competition to reverse engineer and somewhere along the way one of there software engineers found the software. Once discovered it's a simple matter of passing that on to the EPA and having them confirm it.

Also interesting is the talk that this has been known for quite a while and VW denied it. I don't know that to be true but there are reports along those lines. If true it puts the rather quick mea culpa into a new light. If VW has known about these findings for sometime they no doubt have burned through several years of retainer with there law firms to get a handle on the policy going forward.


Brian

 

[KentState]

Also interesting is the talk that this has been known for quite a while and VW denied it. I don't know that to be true but there are reports along those lines. If true it puts the rather quick mea culpa into a new light. If VW has known about these findings for sometime they no doubt have burned through several years of retainer with there law firms to get a handle on the policy going forward.


Brian

I think you have it backwards. VW was questioned a long time ago and has denied it until recently. Of course they knew as they developed the software. This isn't like GM and the ignition switch issue where the part had issues and they failed to notify the government.

That would be like saying that the thief just recently found out that stealing was wrong.

 

[Hulk]

Who, precisely, did find the cheating? I understand the EPA was involved, but was it them or a contractor or, perhaps, another car maker? The last option is really interesting and I'd not be one bit surprised if Ford or GM or some other car maker said to the EPA to look into the software. I think it highly likely that every car maker buys cars from the competition to reverse engineer and somewhere along the way one of there software engineers found the software. Once discovered it's a simple matter of passing that on to the EPA and having them confirm it.

Also interesting is the talk that this has been known for quite a while and VW denied it. I don't know that to be true but there are reports along those lines. If true it puts the rather quick mea culpa into a new light. If VW has known about these findings for sometime they no doubt have burned through several years of retainer with there law firms to get a handle on the policy going forward.


Brian

I believe a university (Virginia I think) was testing diesels to show just how clean these VW diesels are. Ironic huh?

Warning: What follows is my opinion.

From what I remember of my Internal Combustion Engines class high combustion chamber temperatures lead to high production of NOx. Injecting excess fuel lowers combustion temperature and hence NOx production. It also lowers fuel economy and power because the engine is running a little richer than the proper stoichiometric ratio.

The EPA tests are run on a treadmill so that they can be extremely repeatable. No or little steering input and a very repeatable acceleration/braking graph means the engineers can easily devise an algorithm to detect when the EPA test is being run and switch the engine programming to the richer/lower NOx ratio when this routine is detected.

Of course this is super deceptive on VW's part and the bigger problem is that if they would do something this blatantly deceptive how many other times have they pulled similar stunts.

How about the Audi/VW 2.0 turbo well known oil consumption issue that VW claims is normal for one?

 

[postmortemIA]

Yep, from what I have read, you can have fuel efficiency at cost of NOx emissions; you can also still have good fuel efficiency but you have to devise how to reduce NOx emissions afterwards (which costs a lot of money). So doing #1 and faking it makes all other brands with Diesel engines less competitive.

This means this goes all the way up to the top.

 

[Jimzz]

Yep, from what I have read, you can have fuel efficiency at cost of NOx emissions; you can also still have good fuel efficiency but you have to devise how to reduce NOx emissions afterwards (which costs a lot of money). So doing #1 and faking it makes all other brands with Diesel engines less competitive.

This means this goes all the way up to the top.

Looks like it may have gone even higher than that...

Volkswagen scandal: German government 'knew about VW emissions test rigging - but did nothing to stop it':
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11884260/European-stock-markets-set-to-open-lower-as-VW-emissions-fallout-deepens-LIVE.html

 

[Blanky]

The "VW diesels are clean" crowd are stuffed from all the crow they will have to now eat.

This is absolutely devastating for VW.

 

[Blanky]

Looks like it may have gone even higher than that...

Volkswagen scandal: German government 'knew about VW emissions test rigging - but did nothing to stop it':
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11884260/European-stock-markets-set-to-open-lower-as-VW-emissions-fallout-deepens-LIVE.html

Lots of wink wink nod nods. Even when California found that their cars were misbehaving a couple of years ago (from a vox article), they were only told to fix it. They couldn't, so finally it got more attention. This is why corporations behave this way, because regulators don't really care. The fact that it took this long to find during a simple road test that the testing was off--despite other companies (honda, ford, volvo) all having a history of cheating tests, is shameful.

 

[heymrdj]

The problem with these systems is that they make VW's very uncompetitive. A good amount of enthusiasts (the ones that typically pay the premium for them) also know these systems are very likely to break outside of the EPA emission warranty. Commercial truckers always say to buy an pre-2010 truck and rebuild the engine, it's cheaper. And they are right! We have alot of trucking companies in our portfolio that I work alot with 1 on 1. The amount of downtime post-2010 trucks see for failed DPF and DEF injection systems, the sensors ect is staggaring. These things are supposed to be churning 5K miles a week, and they are lucky if they don't have something go wrong every 100K. If DPF needs replaced you can be talking 25K! These systems were forced down every diesels throat when they haven't been tested properly, the people's pocketbooks are the testing system. Chevy/Ford/Ram all had major issues with their DPFs, and now the DEF electrical systems seem to be just as buggy.

 

[Pneumothorax]

The problem with these systems is that they make VW's very uncompetitive. A good amount of enthusiasts (the ones that typically pay the premium for them) also know these systems are very likely to break outside of the EPA emission warranty. Commercial truckers always say to buy an pre-2010 truck and rebuild the engine, it's cheaper. And they are right! We have alot of trucking companies in our portfolio that I work alot with 1 on 1. The amount of downtime post-2010 trucks see for failed DPF and DEF injection systems, the sensors ect is staggaring. These things are supposed to be churning 5K miles a week, and they are lucky if they don't have something go wrong every 100K. If DPF needs replaced you can be talking 25K! These systems were forced down every diesels throat when they haven't been tested properly, the people's pocketbooks are the testing system. Chevy/Ford/Ram all had major issues with their DPFs, and now the DEF electrical systems seem to be just as buggy.

I can attest to this. My 2010 335d has already gone through >$7000+ worth of warranty repairs on the dpf/def system.

1. Dpf replaced X 1 = $3000 repair
2. def tank X 2 = $4000+ for both tanks that busted
original lasted 40k miles. 2nd started leaking at around 25k
3. I'll be having to do intake valve cleaning every 50-70k miles or so for the tune of $1500-$2000

I have a feeling vw thought it could save money on warranty repairs by keeping the def out of their high volume cars...

I'm sadly going to have to get rid of it before the emissions warranty runs out as its a ticking time bomb. Other than that the car has been rock solid with an average 35 mpg. Lucky for guys who live in non-carb states who don't smog diesels many have basically jettisoned the whole unreliable crappy def system...they also disable the egr to prevent the intake clogging.

Moral of the story if you want a long term car for more than 100k miles... Don't buy a clean diesel with a def system!

 

[Ketchup]

Well, I think we all saw this coming. Winterkorn just resigned.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/martin-winterkorn-resigns-as-volkswagen-ceo.html

 

[Spicedaddy]

Pretty crappy thing to do. What are their options to fix this?

1. Reprogram the ECU to make it run in "cheat mode" all the time. Cheap fix, but loss of power and MPG, owners are pissed off and you have to throw money at them.

2. Retrofit AdBlue system. Expensive and an engineering nightmare. Power and MPG might stay close to what they were, but people still mad because they lose space in the trunk for the tank, etc.

3. Keep them on the road as they are and negotiate fines with the EPA. People still mad because they bought a car that was supposed to pollute less. Maybe the best solution, as they'll be paying fines in any scenario anyways.

Then there's the tougher things to measure like loss of resale value, brand image taking a dump, etc. What were they thinking when they made this decision? If the only way to make a 2.0TDI with decent performance that met EPA rules was to add a DEF system, then do it. If it's too expensive to add a DEF system to cheap cars then scrap the project.

 

[Ferzerp]

3. Keep them on the road as they are and negotiate fines with the EPA. People still mad because they bought a car that was supposed to pollute less. Maybe the best solution, as they'll be paying fines in any scenario anyways.

This one isn't an acceptable solution.

If the only way to make a 2.0TDI with decent performance that met EPA rules was to add a DEF system, then do it. If it's too expensive to add a DEF system to cheap cars then scrap the project.

But then you don't get to endlessly trumpet how great and special your car is and sell nearly as many. In other words, enough greed that you are willing to deceive everyone to get your money which is why this is so egregious.

 

[Charmonium]

Fines will get negotiated down to something VW will barely notice. Either that or they'll litigate the shit out of them putting the payoff years down the road like what happened with BP.

It won't have any effect on their sales. I don't think most people even read or listen to the news. And of the people that do hear about this, it's not going to affect anyone's decision to buy a VW or Audi. People buy the car they like. If VW keeps making cars people like, this isn't going to be a blip on the radar of most people.

Did anyone here stop buying BP gas after the gulf spill? I doubt it. And for those of you who did, how many other people can you think of that followed your example.

Give it a year and even their stock price will probably be higher than it was before the selloff.

 

[KentState]

Fines will get negotiated down to something VW will barely notice. Either that or they'll litigate the shit out of them putting the payoff years down the road like what happened with BP.

It won't have any effect on their sales. I don't think most people even read or listen to the news. And of the people that do hear about this, it's not going to affect anyone's decision to buy a VW or Audi. People buy the car they like. If VW keeps making cars people like, this isn't going to be a blip on the radar of most people.

Did anyone here stop buying BP gas after the gulf spill? I doubt it. And for those of you who did, how many other people can you think of that followed your example.

Give it a year and even their stock price will probably be higher than it was before the selloff.

Apple and oranges. The downstream impact of the BP spill was negligible at the pump. This directly impacts of the largest purchases an individual makes. Resale value is hurt, potentially performance and other tangible implications. A better example is what the horrible GM diesel engines did in the '80s and the impact on future applications.

 

[Charmonium]

Apple and oranges. The downstream impact of the BP spill was negligible at the pump. This directly impacts of the largest purchases an individual makes. Resale value is hurt, potentially performance and other tangible implications. A better example is what the horrible GM diesel engines did in the '80s and the impact on future applications.

Maybe. I guess we'll have to see a) if all of the cars affected end up having to get fixed (personally, I don't think they will, the govt will take it out in fines) and b) if they do get fixed, how much of an impact that has on the driving experience. If it's significant, then sure, those 11M people will think twice before buying another VW.

 

[KentState]

Maybe. I guess we'll have to see a) if all of the cars affected end up having to get fixed (personally, I don't think they will, the govt will take it out in fines) and b) if they do get fixed, how much of an impact that has on the driving experience. If it's significant, then sure, those 11M people will think twice before buying another VW.

It's also the loss of future potential sales. Diesel may no longer be seen as advantageous to gas for mileage and power.

 

[heymrdj]

It's also the loss of future potential sales. Diesel may no longer be seen as advantageous to gas for mileage and power.

This is the big point. Diesels were advantageous in the past. At this point, with multi-thousand dollar DPF and DEF systems forced on them, increased maintenance consumables, and the retarded failure rate of those emissions systems, it's not wise to go any diesel. It's actually amazing how many people are now looking for towing power out of gas engines on big trucks. The 2017 Superduty announcement is today, and people are hoping for a large boosted gas engine (like a 5.0L Ecoboost) to avoid going diesel. You didn't see that a decade ago. It was always diesel or bust. Now people are saying "I'll tow slower to not own one of these new diesels."

If VW complies their diesel will become as worthless (price wise) as all the others. They were only competitive because of this cheating I bet. Alot of the problem is trying to sell to the American culture. Americans want cheap, period. Half of them couldn't tell you the difference between a vinyl or leather seat. We don't see diesels over here because compliant diesels are too expensive for what Americans are willing to buy. Even if the diesel is better in every way, no one will pay 5K for it over the gas model sitting right next to it. It's the same reason why our Ford Focus and the European ford focus are nothing alike, besides their outside shell. In Europe, people pay 45K easy for a Focus sized vehicle with heated steering, HID and LED lights, covered dash materials ect, and they keep it a long time. Americans shudder to think that a hatchback could cost 28K. VW is in that more refined market. They put a decent amount of nice materials in their cars for the money. They won't be competitive with the regular make it cheaper and send it to China market.

 

[unokitty]

Angry diesel owners joining lawsuits against Volkswagen

Livid at the prospect of losing thousands of dollars from the value of their cars and performance from their diesel engines, many owners of Volkswagens are headed to court...

Plaintiffs in all 50 states have joined the class-action suits, according to the firm. A spokesperson says there has been "an unprecedented response" since the first lawsuit was filed within hours of an announcement from federal regulators last Friday.

Diesel owners paid thousands more for their vehicles instead of their gasoline-powered counterparts because Volkswagen's diesel engines ostensibly offered both torque and fuel economy. Now affected car owners are faced with a double-whammy – the value of their cars has diminished with the news and the purported software fix that brings the cars in emissions compliance will likely lower their performance and gas mileage...

Another firm, Girard Gibbs, has also filed a lawsuit over the diesel deception. "These Volkswagen vehicles should never have been sold, and certainly should not have spent the past six years on American roads polluting our air," said Eric Gibbs, the lead attorney. "Not only does this kind of fraud harm consumers and the environment, it negatively impacts competition, which is what drives our free-market system. People should not stand for it."

Lots of lawyers smelling money. Will be interesting to see how this plays out for VW...

Will also be interesting to see if the collateral damage impacts other parts of the auto marketplace.

Uno

 

[theeedude]

It's game over for passenger car diesel, IMO, and good riddance. They were never clean. Even newer diesel, if one drives by me, I can smell it, and it irritates my lungs.
It's simply too expensive to make an inherently dirty engine clean enough for modern day standards, hybrids and electrics are dropping in price and are the way forward. Diesel is the automotive equivalent of coal power plants. It's not clean enough, and high mpg competition is on a different cost curve that is declining, while the cost of doing diesel is rising.

 

[heymrdj]

It's game over for passenger car diesel, IMO, and good riddance. They were never clean. Even newer diesel, if one drives by me, I can smell it, and it irritates my lungs.
It's simply too expensive to make an inherently dirty engine clean enough for modern day standards, hybrids and electrics are dropping in price and are the way forward. Diesel is the automotive equivalent of coal power plants. It's not clean enough, and high mpg competition is on a different cost curve that is declining, while the cost of doing diesel is rising.

Diesel is only more expensive because of high usage world wide. Gasoline will go up dramatically if the world shifts to it. Like most polution related items, the cleaner option will always cost us more in our pocketbook. Cheap energy is something that disappears day by day, never to return to as cheap as it was. One day everyone will run everything on solar and wind, but we'll they'll be too poor to have what we had because no matter what we do those forms of energy will never be as efficient as our liquid dinos.

 

[Torn Mind]

Diesel is only more expensive because of high usage world wide. Gasoline will go up dramatically if the world shifts to it. Like most polution related items, the cleaner option will always cost us more in our pocketbook. Cheap energy is something that disappears day by day, never to return to as cheap as it was. One day everyone will run everything on solar and wind, but we'll they'll be too poor to have what we had because no matter what we do those forms of energy will never be as efficient as our liquid dinos.

Diesel in commercial applications(Trucks of all shapes and sizes) will never fully die out, but passenger cars and buses...don't seem to be on good terms in diesel's stronghold of Europe, where the governments there that used to incentivize diesel purchases(Less taxes, tax breaks, maybe subsidies) are now starting to tighten the noose around them, especially older vehicles, instead.

 

[Torn Mind]

This is the big point. Diesels were advantageous in the past. At this point, with multi-thousand dollar DPF and DEF systems forced on them, increased maintenance consumables, and the retarded failure rate of those emissions systems, it's not wise to go any diesel. It's actually amazing how many people are now looking for towing power out of gas engines on big trucks. The 2017 Superduty announcement is today, and people are hoping for a large boosted gas engine (like a 5.0L Ecoboost) to avoid going diesel. You didn't see that a decade ago. It was always diesel or bust. Now people are saying "I'll tow slower to not own one of these new diesels."

If VW complies their diesel will become as worthless (price wise) as all the others. They were only competitive because of this cheating I bet. Alot of the problem is trying to sell to the American culture. Americans want cheap, period. Half of them couldn't tell you the difference between a vinyl or leather seat. We don't see diesels over here because compliant diesels are too expensive for what Americans are willing to buy. Even if the diesel is better in every way, no one will pay 5K for it over the gas model sitting right next to it. It's the same reason why our Ford Focus and the European ford focus are nothing alike, besides their outside shell. In Europe, people pay 45K easy for a Focus sized vehicle with heated steering, HID and LED lights, covered dash materials ect, and they keep it a long time. Americans shudder to think that a hatchback could cost 28K. VW is in that more refined market. They put a decent amount of nice materials in their cars for the money. They won't be competitive with the regular make it cheaper and send it to China market.

I disagree that it is a culture difference. I think it is rather a goverment(s) policy differences on what to do to influence the masses.

Euros tax the living shit out of gas and gave tax breaks and other incentives to go diesel. Government $$$$ to influence the masses "from the shadows". Gas is 2-3 dollars here. 3-4 times that over there.

Gas vechicles cost a lot to operate Just like tax breaks on the Chevy Volt here.