VW Faking Emissions Values

[michal1980]

If you owned one of the effected cars would you take it back to the dealership for the recall where it will affect both the gas mileage and horsepower or leave it alone? I will be looking to pick me up a few of these diesel vehicles and I will not plan on having the recall done. There is no law that states I have to have a recall performed. I'll keep the higher horsepower and better MPG.

and the extra pollution?

It might be that you wont be able to register the car if the recall isnt done.

 

[theeedude]

and the extra pollution?

It might be that you wont be able to register the car if the recall isnt done.

Or sell it in places like California.

 

[Mark R]

If VW's ecu can detect the testing, most likely all the others can too...

This is one of the reason why the EU type-certification emissions/fuel consumption testing is being changed from 2016, as the authorities had suspected industry-wide gaming of the emissions numbers.

The test protocol is being changed from a strictly scripted simple protocol, with straight line acceleration followed by cruise control cruising, then straight line deceleration and precisely times stop periods, to a very long and complex "real world" test recorded from a real drive cycle. In addition, to the scripted test, there will also be an unscripted test, where a test driver takes the car out on a real drive in real conditions, but only has to do a certain number of miles of highway/town/etc.

This protocol was specifically chosen to make it impossible to game, although the unscripted drive cycle does potentially introduce some bias to the final result.

 

[Brian Stirling]

At some point the car will not run without DEF. So no, you can just keep driving it. IIRC DEF is refilled during scheduled service and the tanks are only a few gallons so the rate of consumption is fairly low.

Not being an expert on this I checked and Wikipedia indicates DEF consumption at 2% to 6% of diesel fuel consumption. Taking 2% as the lowest value and figuring a truck getting an average of 25mpg (optimistic I think) I calculate over 6 gallons of DEF in an 8000 service interval. At the higher value of 6% and a more likely 20mpg average we'd be looking at more like 24 gallons of DEF in 8000 miles.

Would the DEF refill port typically be withing the engine compartment?

There is some talk about criminal charges for VW execs and I have to wonder who's going to fall on the sword for a huge payday down the road. This isn't going to effect the top guys you can bet but they're going to have to find someone to take the fall.

There's also talk that they need to look closer at other car makers for this and if they find others there will be and should be Congressional hearings.


Brian

 

[Ferzerp]

There's also talk that they need to look closer at other car makers for this and if they find others there will be and should be Congressional hearings.

VW is the only manufacturer that claimed they could meet the standards without urea. It is very unlikely that the others have done this with their diesels.

 

[Zodiark1593]

This is one of the reason why the EU type-certification emissions/fuel consumption testing is being changed from 2016, as the authorities had suspected industry-wide gaming of the emissions numbers.

The test protocol is being changed from a strictly scripted simple protocol, with straight line acceleration followed by cruise control cruising, then straight line deceleration and precisely times stop periods, to a very long and complex "real world" test recorded from a real drive cycle. In addition, to the scripted test, there will also be an unscripted test, where a test driver takes the car out on a real drive in real conditions, but only has to do a certain number of miles of highway/town/etc.

This protocol was specifically chosen to make it impossible to game, although the unscripted drive cycle does potentially introduce some bias to the final result.

Oh hell no. The only one allowed to drive my car is me. There will be blood before I let a stranger drive it around!

 

[Brian Stirling]

VW is the only manufacturer that claimed they could meet the standards without urea. It is very unlikely that the others have done this with their diesels.

I remember seeing something about a small diesel from Toyota or Suzuki that didn't need any tricks because they LOWERED the compression ratio down to something like 14:1 and that prevents NOx production. I guess we'll have to see that to believe that.


Brian

 

[gus6464]

11 million cars!
http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/22/9370057/volkswagen-emissions-software-scandal-11-million-cars

So fucked.

 

[NutBucket]

Not being an expert on this I checked and Wikipedia indicates DEF consumption at 2% to 6% of diesel fuel consumption. Taking 2% as the lowest value and figuring a truck getting an average of 25mpg (optimistic I think) I calculate over 6 gallons of DEF in an 8000 service interval. At the higher value of 6% and a more likely 20mpg average we'd be looking at more like 24 gallons of DEF in 8000 miles.

Would the DEF refill port typically be withing the engine compartment?

Brian

I think on most Euro cars the fill port is located in the rear area of the vehicle as that's where the tank is.

And, because I was bored, the fill port for the Chevy Cruze is in the floor of the trunk. The DEF tank/pump takes the place of the spare tire.

 

[tweakmonkey]

There is no law that states I have to have a recall performed. I'll keep the higher horsepower and better MPG.

Right, there might not be a law stating you HAVE to bring in the car for a recall.

But there is a law that says you cannot drive the car on a public road in the United States if it doesn't meet federal emissions standards. So unless you want to just idle it in your garage all day or race it around a track, you might find owning a car that's illegal at a federal emissions level to be a pretty boring experience.

 

[tweakmonkey]

Someone mentioned their stock tanking. Holy moly it dropped a ton in the past few days!

I remember when all the TDI fanboys (some of the loudest out there) would always praise how amazing the VWs were, yet nobody questioned how they were able to do what Ford, Hyundai, Chevy, Honda etc. never did in the USA. Sure, diesels are everywhere in Europe but those companies never brought them here for some reason... and now it turns out because you just can't meet the requirements and still get those good MPG numbers. I think most of the diesels in France I saw were 1-1.3 liters, too. But it was interesting how there were Fords and Civics with diesels.

Reading that original article in this thread, it says the NOx was at 40x the legal limit. Whatever camp you're on with the 'green' argument, that's a hell of a lot of pollution compared to what the EPA's goals were. With 100 million+ cars on the road in the USA that must be very significant to air quality.

 

[BoberFett]

With 100 million+ cars on the road in the USA that must be very significant to air quality.

There are not 100M diesel commuter vehicles on the road.

 

[Denly]

I wonder how the used market will react to it to this. If I pickup a 2012 TDI today can I register it and pass emission? I wanted a tdi golf wagon for a while now, if there is a big dip on used market I am in.

 

[tweakmonkey]

There are not 100M diesel commuter vehicles on the road.

Not even close. Sorry I should've clarified. I'm saying if you had everyone buying a diesel because their great MPG with no concern about the emissions, you'd have unbearable bad air. Laws like this exist for a reason. People often say, "But France has tons of diesels!" and my response is yeah, but people drive way less cars, way less often, shorter distances and have smaller engines.

 

[DaTT]

For some odd reason, I find this very funny.

 

[BoberFett]

For some odd reason, I find this very funny.

I don't know about funny, but not entirely unexpected.

TANSTAAFL

Government mandates higher MPG. Government mandates lower emissions. Apparently engineers were just supposed to pull those things out of their asses.

 

[gus6464]

I don't know about funny, but not entirely unexpected.

TANSTAAFL

Government mandates higher MPG. Government mandates lower emissions. Apparently engineers were just supposed to pull those things out of their asses.

Chevy and others do it with a thing called urea. Why should VW be exempt?

 

[Brian Stirling]

Chevy and others do it with a thing called urea. Why should VW be exempt?

It is kinda funny that the way to make dirty diesel clean is to piss in the exhaust. Urea being the principle non-water constituent is piss.

The US head of VW has been very frank about the issue and has issued a very unusual statement about it.

Volkswagen stunned investors Tuesday by admitting that the problem was much bigger than that: internal investigations had found significant discrepancies in 11 million vehicles worldwide.

"Millions of people all over the world trust our brands, our cars and our technology. I am deeply sorry we have broken this trust," said CEO Martin Winterkorn. "I would like to make a formal apology to our customers, to the authorities, and to the general public for this misconduct."


Brian

 

[Ferzerp]

I totally think diesels should be able to refine pure water and urea from urine. With as little is as needed, one person peeing in a pee tank should be able to keep up with the need.

Now to design my device!

 

[BoberFett]

Chevy and others do it with a thing called urea. Why should VW be exempt?

Where did you get "they should be exempt" from what I said?

And how would any company be exempt from physics and chemistry?

 

[gus6464]

Where did you get "they should be exempt" from what I said?

And how would any company be exempt from physics and chemistry?

You made a comment about EPA mandating stricter standards and how engineers are supposed to come up with a solution out of their asses. Well the reality is that they don't have to come up with anything as a solution already exists in the form of urea.

Exempt was the wrong word but you seem to be acting like VW should get a pass for this. An engineering solution exists but they just didn't give two shits and instead it was much easier to cheat the system.

 

[Ferzerp]

Exactly. The "clean diesel" crap was marketing, not engineering.

VW wanted to put on airs (pun intended) that it had so advanced engines that they could both perform well and meet emissions standards without having an extra tank for you to periodically fill.

And it worked for them, but now they've been caught.

A diesel *can* meet the standards without the additive (as VW has so proven), but the resulting engine is not one that would be received well by the market (as they have shown by creating the programming that shuts off the emissions equipment when not being testing by the EPA).

I am extremely curious what the performance and mileage of the "fixed" engines will be compared to what they were before. I expect it will be rather substantially different.

 

[LTC8K6]

Chevy and others do it with a thing called urea. Why should VW be exempt?

The Passat uses DEF, and it has the same emissions trick...

So, whatever the problem, urea afterinjection did not help.

 

[BoberFett]

The Passat uses DEF, and it has the same emissions trick...

So, whatever the problem, urea afterinjection did not help.

Exactly. So are VW engineers somehow worse than GM engineers? Or is GM pulling their own trick in order to meeting mandates?

Guess we'll find out.

 

[NutBucket]

DEF is also used by MB, BMW, Ford, etc.