VW Faking Emissions Values

[exar333]

Wow.

This would be pretty huge, if it ends-up being true. Using software to run the engine differently during emissions testing vs. standard usage.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswagen-charged-with-hacking-482000-diesels-to-129357726737.html

 

[Aharami]

shame on them. they deserve to fined huge (I read could be as large as 18 billion dollars)

 

[LTC8K6]

You mean all those green wienies have been driving some very dirty diesels around?

 

[exar333]

shame on them. they deserve to fined huge (I read could be as large as 18 billion dollars)

Yeah...crazy. As if VW of USA didn't have enough problems, this will be a VERY big fine.

 

[shabby]

I wonder if they're faking euro tests too.

 

[Ferzerp]

I wonder how many years of life the extra NOx emissions will cost the population of the country in aggregate? Will we condemn them like we have GM for 120something deaths? That's what, around 5000 years of life removed? I'm sure the half a million cars have done more than that.

 

[Torn Mind]

More pain for the diesel train. European cities clamping down on them in the future. The need for all that expensive equipment. Diesel passenger vehicles will fade away to only the commercial sector at this rate.

 

[996GT2]

Yet another reason why gas electric hybrids >>>> diesels

 

[theeedude]

I ride a road bicycle, and I can smell a diesel vs gasoline even for "clean diesel" and diesel exhaust irritates my lungs when I am climbing.
I am surprised Audi and VW actively cheated though. Definitely puts a ding in their reputations in my eyes.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Wow mpg drops 43% when the bypass is disabled and it runs according to fda spec.

 

[996GT2]

Wow mpg drops 43% when the bypass is disabled and it runs according to fda spec.

Source?

If that's the case I really doubt any owners would want to take their cars in for this "fix"

 

[theeedude]

Yep, they probably would not have cheated and risked so much if it was a minor thing or cheap to remedy like a simple software upgrade. This is probably going to hammer mpg, and then they will be sued by customers for overestimating mileage and/or horsepower.
Even aside from fines and punitive damages, they may have to spend thousands per car on half a million cars, or potentially tens of thousands per car if they have to buy them back.

 

[theeedude]

Source?

If that's the case I really doubt any owners would want to take their cars in for this "fix"

They may not be able to get an emissions pass to register their car without proof of this repair in many states.

 

[LTC8K6]

I was wondering how these vehicles were meeting regs without DEF.
DEF was added for 2015.

I wonder if the vehicles can actually meet the regs at all?

Maybe they can only meet the regs for short periods, enough to pass a test, but not continuously?

There must be a reason VW took such a risk.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Sounds like VW/Audi is DasFucked!

My guess is the EPA knows the names of the VW people that were at the test and that those people had to know they were rigging the test. Put out warrants for them then see who they roll on. My guess is that some mid level exec will fall on the sword but the top guys will say they knew nothing about it. In the end we're likely to see some little guys and a few mid level guys take the hit. I wonder if criminal prosecution is possible.


Brian

 

[heymrdj]

Source?

If that's the case I really doubt any owners would want to take their cars in for this "fix"

I don't know that the number would be that high, but I bet it's high. The fact is the only DPF systems we've come up with just burn more diesel as a catalyst. I frequent the Ford diesel forums alot and the fact is that todays modern 6.7L diesels still can't get the MPG the older 7.3L diesels got before all the catalyst systems were required. We're only just now starting to get into a parity again more than 12 years later. The middle years were atrocious (6.0L). From 19 unloaded MPG (7.3) to 12-13 unloaded MPG (6.0L with DPF).

 

[krose]

What year were trucks required to use DEF? The stinky, soot spewing trucks I see on the road would seem to cause the majority of pollution compared to a relative handful of diesel cars. Doesn't make it right that VW cheated, but the trucking industry seems to get a free pass.

 

[K1052]

What year were trucks required to use DEF? The stinky, soot spewing trucks I see on the road would seem to cause the majority of pollution compared to a relative handful of diesel cars. Doesn't make it right that VW cheated, but the trucking industry seems to get a free pass.

The more restrictive NOx rules went into effect in 2010, the trucking industry didn't get a pass. As usual the standard applied only to new engines so there are a lot of old trucks running around still just like older cars.

 

[Pocatello]

That is some nifty German engineering.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Pretty much every major US and German newspaper publication is running this story.

Mega bad news from a company that, whether they like it or not, represents an entire nation committed to environment awareness.

Let's see where their stock goes tomorrow...

 

[LTC8K6]

That is some nifty German engineering.

If VW's ecu can detect the testing, most likely all the others can too...

 

[Brian Stirling]

What percentage of 2015/2016 diesel cars and trucks use DEF? If you run out of DEF in your car/truck does the car/truck stop or does it keep going? If it keeps going why would we expect users to pay for DEF if it's not needed to function other than when taking the car/truck in for emissions testing?

I suspect VW/Audi has opened a can of worms that other car/truck makers will have to deal with.

If DEF consumption is on the order of 2%-6% of diesel fuel consumption and the price per gallon of DEF is higher than the price of diesel then the actual operating cost for a diesel vehicle needs to be adjusted to account for the additional cost of DEF. Figuring a middle value of 4% that would essentially increase the cost of operation by more than 4% and probably closer to 6% and that's on top of the high per gallon cost of diesel relative to gasoline.


Brian

 

[NutBucket]

At some point the car will not run without DEF. So no, you can just keep driving it. IIRC DEF is refilled during scheduled service and the tanks are only a few gallons so the rate of consumption is fairly low.

 

[heymrdj]

What percentage of 2015/2016 diesel cars and trucks use DEF? If you run out of DEF in your car/truck does the car/truck stop or does it keep going? If it keeps going why would we expect users to pay for DEF if it's not needed to function other than when taking the car/truck in for emissions testing?

I suspect VW/Audi has opened a can of worms that other car/truck makers will have to deal with.

If DEF consumption is on the order of 2%-6% of diesel fuel consumption and the price per gallon of DEF is higher than the price of diesel then the actual operating cost for a diesel vehicle needs to be adjusted to account for the additional cost of DEF. Figuring a middle value of 4% that would essentially increase the cost of operation by more than 4% and probably closer to 6% and that's on top of the high per gallon cost of diesel relative to gasoline.


Brian

They aren't allowed to continue running without DEF without some sort of special exemption programming. Emergency vehicles and vehicles that run in the extreme cold (Alaskan/Canadian oil wells ect) where being stranded can mean death for occupants. They all have some sort of limp mode programmed. I believe on the Super Duty trucks you can't go faster than 30-40mph. It gives lots of warnings before you run out.

At some point the car will not run without DEF. So no, you can just keep driving it. IIRC DEF is refilled during scheduled service and the tanks are only a few gallons so the rate of consumption is fairly low.

Yeah the DEF tank is generally sized for the duty cycle of the motor and it's oil change time. Pickups typically have 3-6 gallon tanks, and it's designed for about 8,000 miles.

 

[Raizinman]

If you owned one of the effected cars would you take it back to the dealership for the recall where it will affect both the gas mileage and horsepower or leave it alone? I will be looking to pick me up a few of these diesel vehicles and I will not plan on having the recall done. There is no law that states I have to have a recall performed. I'll keep the higher horsepower and better MPG.