Voters vs. Illegal Immigrants. . .

[babylon5]

Steeplerot why are you so passionate about this issue? Do you know someone close to u
works from other country here w/o visa? Do you have someone in your family in Mexico?
Or you know someone who were discriminated against before?

 

[johnnobts]

they're breaking the laws, not paying taxes, the cheap labor they provide does not compensate for the burden they pose on health care and education. for some of you to foolishly compate illegal immigration to speeding on the streets is absurd...

 

[palehorse]

come here legally, learn the language, work hard, pay your taxes, obey the law.

period.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

I'll tell you where we go: we round them up and bus them south. period. then we lockdown the borders with machineguns, dogs, and even landmines if necessary.

LOL! put down the crack pipe and step away from the pipe dream there, sparky


The "so-called" immigration system in the States has almost completely collapsed.

The 12 million or so illegal immigrants in the country are a strain on state resources and particularly schools, but also contribute in positive ways to local sales tax and cheap labor.

Then there are hundreds of thousands of LEGAL immigrants who's cases have been backlogged since 2001, thanks to John Ashcroft having deliberately sabotaged the legal immigration process. These legal immigrants don't get the media spotlight the illegals do. No one speaks out for them, even though they've followed the rules. To do just about ANYTHING legally related to immigration requires one to hire an attorney.

Finally, foreign student enrollment in US undergrad and grad schools are way down from where they were in the 90s. This is due to the fact that is is much more difficult to become a foreign student in the US after 9/11.

The solution is complex:



Immediate amnesty to all illegals who have been here 5 years or longer. Amnesty could include a modified Green Card that allows workers to work in the States for a period of time

Loosen the border with Mexico, build more ports of entry, allow Mexican laborers to freely move between the US and Mexico on a monthly/quarterly basis. Many Mexicans DO NOT want to stay in the US, they are here for the jobs only and would leave at the end of the ag season. Forcing them to stay and live here because it's too hard to go back home means they will have more children here, clog the schools, and consume resources.

Punish employers who continue to hire illegals

Legal immigrants should be dealt with quickly, and ones who's cases have been opened for more than 6 years should be automatically granted a green card


There is no way to deport 12 million people. Acute labor shortages would result, especially in the ag sector. Giving amnesty to the illegals would also raise wages, thus low-income American workers and union workers would not have to bear the brunt of the illegal workforce out-bidding them for jobs. Poor Americans workers are seriously hurt by illegals as the situation stands now.

Building a huge, high tech fence will only make it harder for illegals to LEAVE the US.

And Legal immigrants deserve to not have a decade of their lives put on hold while they wait to work legally in the USA.

 

[1EZduzit]

Please, we are not so dumb as to say we would round them up and deport them tomorrow.

40% of the illegals crossed the border. 60% are here illegally after their visas ran out. They thumb there nose at us and we should forgive and forget. Sorry, it's not going to happen that way this time. The more we give them amnesty the more sneak in or fail to leave when there visas run out. VOTERS have had their fill of it, just watch and see what happens!!!!!

And as far as I'm concerned the illegals who've been here the longest should be the first to go.

 

[palehorse]

Amnesty!? oh please... we've all seen how well that worked the last few times Presidents have wimped out and used it to get through the end of their terms. All amnesty accomplishes is that a fresh batch of illegals will come in over the next few years just hoping and waiting for the NEXT amnesty period.

funk that ineffective bullsh*t!

(btw, the idea of the landmines and machineguns was written tongue-in-cheeck. I know that today's overly-sensitive society cant handle the thought of it, so I'd never seriously suggest it if I were in power... which I'm not.)

the basic premise is solid though, and that is the fact that it IS necessary to undertake some drastic measures to solve the problem of illegal immigration once and for all. for that to happen, there must be reform across all immigration processes, to include border security, dealing with those already here, punishing illegals and those that hire them, and finally, speeding up the legal methods of entry!

Now, do I have faith that our government can do all of those things quickly and effectively? I just dont know... what I DO know is that GWB is way out in left field on this one, so the voters need to get REALLY loud and let him and the rest of our elected officials know that we wont allow the current illegal immigration mess to continue; and a guest-worker program is just not enough! heck, it's not even in the right direction!

For once we have an issue that the entire populace can get behind with a non-partisan solution. Perhaps this issue will bring all Americans closer together again, which would not be a bad thing at all considering how divided we are on other issues of import...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Amnesty!? oh please... we've all seen how well that worked the last few times Presidents have wimped out and used it to get through the end of their terms. All amnesty accomplishes is that a fresh batch of illegals will come in over the next few years just hoping and waiting for the NEXT amnesty period.

funk that ineffective bullsh*t!

(btw, the idea of the landmines and machineguns was written tongue-in-cheeck. I know that today's overly-sensitive society cant handle the thought of it, so I'd never seriously suggest it if I were in power... which I'm not.)

the basic premise is solid though, and that is the fact that it IS necessary to undertake some drastic measures to solve the problem of illegal immigration once and for all. for that to happen, there must be reform across all immigration processes, to include border security, dealing with those already here, punishing illegals and those that hire them, and finally, speeding up the legal methods of entry!

Now, do I have faith that our government can do all of those things quickly and effectively? I just dont know... what I DO know is that GWB is way out in left field on this one, so the voters need to get REALLY loud and let him and the rest of our elected officials know that we wont allow the current illegal immigration mess to continue; and a guest-worker program is just not enough! heck, it's not even in the right direction!

For once we have an issue that the entire populace can get behind with a non-partisan solution. Perhaps this issue will bring all Americans closer together again, which would not be a bad thing at all considering how divided we are on other issues of import...

With the exception of your landmine and machinegun idea, you hit the nail right on the head, especially with your comment about speeding up LEGAL entry methods. The problem is simple economics, there is a huge demand for low wage, low skill workers. At the same time, increasing education for Americans means there are less people than ever to take those jobs. Immigrants traditionally fill a lot of those roles, but the current system doesn't allow enough legal immigration to fill demand. When demand is so mismatched with supply, that's where black markets come in. If we can curb black market demand through more effective punishments at the same time we remove the need for the black market in the first place, illegal immigration will dry up.

I disagree, however, that "drastic" measures need to be undertaken to accomplish this. The problem with immigration policy is that no one takes it very seriously, and no one does even the job they are supposed to be doing. Reform doesn't need to involve new laws so much as it needs to involve enforcing the old ones. As someone who has lived in California, I can tell you first hand that illegal immigrant workers are, for all intents and purposes, a regular part of life that everyone in aware of. You know who they are, and who hires them. But nobody does much about it. If people took their thumbs out of their asses, they could make huge strides in combatting the problem without having to do anything drastic in any way.

I know, I know, that's a lot less fun than talking about blowing up Mexicans. But in all seriousness, all we really need to do is improve enforcement and maybe tweak the existing laws, especially in terms of LEGAL immigration. The problem is that all the federal government is doing lately is flapping their collective beaks. Which is unusual for Bush, as talking is not exactly his area of expertise. If they would get together and do SOMETHING, it would be a vast improvement over the nothing they are doing right now.

 

[colonel]

sick and tired of this issue, illegal are getting ahead and now they have a citizenship by the Bush Ad......the hard part is coming legal where you have to go through all the red tapes from the goverment to get the resident status....I know a couple indias guys working in my office , they marriage a US citizen years ago and their application is still pending after years of paying taxes to the system. Please fix the legal immigration first....is a mess

 

[aka1nas]

I am not against a general amnesty at some point as a part of a solution to this issue, but absolutely not until the border is secured. I feel that the problem with these attempts to fix immigration is that they are all half-fixes at best. We need a more comprehensive solution that includes securing our border to prevent illegal immigration, stricter punishment for employers who hire illegal labor, and a far more reasonable legal immigration system.

I have recently been personally involved in the process of obtaining a green card(for my wife). I am thankful that we were able to get through it so quickly, but the system is still horribly inefficient. We waited for several hours at one Federal building to process her and fingerprint her. Then, a week later, we had to go to another processing center for the next step. The line stretched outside the building and halfway down the block. Her "appointment" was at 11:30am and we arrived at about 10:30 AM. We were there until about 4:30pm and at least half of the line never got processed and had to try again the next day. They would not allow me into the building as she was the applicant. Once she finally came out she told me that pretty all they did was fingerprint her again.

We basically have an entire step in the greencard process that seems to require a whole different building location, staff, and associated bureuacracy to do the same damn thing that the previous step did! While I am sure they need more manpower, they are also extremely inefficient.

 

[colonel]

We basically have an entire step in the greencard process that seems to require a whole different building location, staff, and associated bureuacracy to do the same damn thing that the previous step did! While I am sure they need more manpower, they are also extremely inefficient.

it is true and the american people dont know how bad they work the underpower DHS, I can't think one the law pass allowing the 11 millones illegals aliens going to the federal building with the five kids, the mother the grandparents for the appointment. I just read in the USA today this week the DHS is losing a lot menpower after the Katrina mess.

 

[catnap1972]

Will some of you on the right make up your minds already--first you're all for a "global economy" now you want to shut the door because "middle class jobs are going out left and right and wages are slipping into the toilet" (didn't seem to concern you before).

Has Wal-Mart chimed on this immigration thing in yet? I'm sure they're itching for a piece of the pie to fill "all those jobs Americans won't do (for $1 an hour)" like cashier, stock shelves, etc...

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: Witling
GT, has anyone ever compared you to a housefly -- you know, eating $hit and bothering people. I've made two posts in this series. Here they are.

GTKeeper, where do you get off with the statement that "these illegals don't pay SS or Taxes?" If you get wages in the U.S. the employer is going to want to deduct them as an expense. The only way the employer can do that is to withhold tax and SS. Now perhaps the casual day laborers who get picked up for a job each day and are usually paid in cash don't pay taxes but everyone who works in a packing plant, landscape crew, or restaurant sure as heck pays it. Perhaps the reason the elected officials don't "represent the people" is that the people have their head where the sun doesn't shine.

I think Steeplerot pretty much covered the SS and tax question. Believe me, it's not a problem. Paying taxes has little to do with filing a tax return if you work for wages. Answer me this one if it isn't an archaic, racist law. Why is capital free to move anywhere on the globe but labor is not?

Your reply is

Just like your last argument this one is flawed as well. You claim that a company benefits from having their workers pay SS and taxes.... you are wrong. Sure they get a write off for that, but if they employ legally they have to have insurance for EVERY single worker. Not only that but any other benefit like AD&D, sick pay etc. It is much cheaper to pay 5 dollars an hour in cash under the table. I know several people who employ illegals for cheap labor. And they wouldn't dare report to the government that these people work for them.

Go ahead, parse my material. Please write down the sentense where I claim that a company benefits from having their workers pay SS and taxes. Go ahead, I double dog dare you. Extra credit if you find the word "benefit" anywhere in there. It's true that if you employ workers you need Workers' Comp insurance. That's true they are dry or wet. And no, you can give benefits like sick pay to some workers but not others. The fact that you know several people who pay illegals under the tables is somewhat like swatting flies. A lifetime of swatting flies does not make on an entomologist.

Finally, in my second post I did ask one question. You missed that completely but you did manage to find a discussion about "benefiting a business." OK, just show me which sentence it is.

As you requested, in bold. You are claiming that an employer is going to WANT to deduct them as expense..... implying there is a benefit there. If thats not what you are implying, then please clarify what you are stating. What I am saying is that there is a direct and greater benefit for paying workers under the table.

To answer your question about capital and labor... why even ask this question? Capital does not equal labor. I don't think you even know the difference between the two. Naturally capital will move 'more freely' than labor from a logistical point of view. We have the infrastructure to move capital all over the globe. Labor is different. There have to be different mechanisms in place to regulate labor movement.

I think the EU is the perfect example, capital began moving from country to country WAY before the movement of labor. Countries need to put in place infrastructure to monitor the labor movement so that taxes/incomes are tracked and filed in the correct places.

 

[GTKeeper]

The solution is complex:



Immediate amnesty to all illegals who have been here 5 years or longer. Amnesty could include a modified Green Card that allows workers to work in the States for a period of time

Loosen the border with Mexico, build more ports of entry, allow Mexican laborers to freely move between the US and Mexico on a monthly/quarterly basis. Many Mexicans DO NOT want to stay in the US, they are here for the jobs only and would leave at the end of the ag season. Forcing them to stay and live here because it's too hard to go back home means they will have more children here, clog the schools, and consume resources.

Punish employers who continue to hire illegals

Legal immigrants should be dealt with quickly, and ones who's cases have been opened for more than 6 years should be automatically granted a green card


There is no way to deport 12 million people. Acute labor shortages would result, especially in the ag sector. Giving amnesty to the illegals would also raise wages, thus low-income American workers and union workers would not have to bear the brunt of the illegal workforce out-bidding them for jobs. Poor Americans workers are seriously hurt by illegals as the situation stands now.

Building a huge, high tech fence will only make it harder for illegals to LEAVE the US.

And Legal immigrants deserve to not have a decade of their lives put on hold while they wait to work legally in the USA.[/quote]

I like this solution. I think if the U.S can monitor and account for every illegal person coming to the U.S and make sure they pay taxes and SS I am all for it. My biggest pieve about the whole situation is that you have a large population (12 million) where a large percentage of them do not pay taxes, yet they use the public school system, roads, healthcare, and other infrastructure that I pay for with my taxes.

Whoever claims this is a racist issue, its not. Its a 2 sided thing. Companies want cheap labor and don't want to get rid of that. Illegals dont want to become fellons and be put in jail.

Obviously we cant just deport all these people as you said, but the general idea is that we need to enable them to be fully participating residents of this country.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Obviously we cant just deport all these people as you said

why can't we? how is THAT the hardest part?

Once the border is sufficiently locked down, I say we get volunteers in every city to start rounding them up and bussing them to Mexico... WHY NOT?!

I just dont understand how/why alot of people think that part of the solution would be too difficult.

Step 1 is still locking down the borders. without doing that, ALL of the rest is pointless.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Please, we are not so dumb as to say we would round them up and deport them tomorrow.

Ok. How do you deport 12,000,000 people? Do we have enough professional law enforcement officers specializing in this to identify these 12,000,000 illegal aliens? Do we have the prison space for these 12,000,000 new felons? The courts, judges, and related personnel to process the deportation of these 12,000,000 people?Would all the resources, human, equipment, new prisons, money, etc. that this "Mother of all Deportations" would seemingly require be better utilized in actually securing the borders? Would from a cost/benefit ratio and from an actual securing the border situation, an amnesty for these people similar to the 1980s' amnesty for the ones that have been here for such a long time that they've become an integral part to the US economy and culture and a focusing of all these extra new massive resources at stopping further illegal border crossings not be better? Sure vengeance wrought upon the 12,000,000 would satisfy many who hate illegal immigrants for legitimate or illegitimate reasons, but would it be in the best interest of the US? Moral issues about destroying their families, many of whom are US citizens, aside.

Do you build detention camps in Arizona?..Laf!, Hire Greyhound's entire fleet? The scale of just this part of the issue is huge.


Does this mean that all those hot chicks from the Ukraine have to go too?..Oh noos!

VOTERS have had their fill of it, just watch and see what happens!!!!!

Nah, the average voter in the US lives life in a vacuum, most take marching orders from Hannity, Limbaugh, Moore, Frankin, are more concerned with who will win the American idol and who Paris Hilton is f**kin...

Amnesty!? oh please... we've all seen how well that worked the last few times Presidents have wimped out and used it to get through the end of their terms. All amnesty accomplishes is that a fresh batch of illegals will come in over the next few years just hoping and waiting for the NEXT amnesty period.

With all due respect..blah,blah,blah....

It will be a logistical nightmare! By transforming the civil immigration system into a criminal system (even purely at discretion) the putative criminal must get the entire panoply of defense rights. Right to an attorney, right to factual determinations by a jury, no ex post facto laws, right to a speedy trial, no self incrimination, rule of lenity, the list goes on and on. As it is, since the BIA largely stopped issuing written opinions the federal courts have been flooded with appeals. This would literally overwhelm the justice department. IJ would have to become article III judges and USCIS attorneys would all need to become AUSAs. Many more courts would have to built. If the law was enforced, many more jails would have to built. It would make the transformation of the federal justice system due to the war on drugs look minor in comparison

Amnesty MUST be an option for the ones who are law abideing citizens and are productive members of society..

Again, read this..Acute labor shortages would result, especially in the ag sector. Giving amnesty to the illegals would also raise wages, thus low-income American workers and union workers would not have to bear the brunt of the illegal workforce out-bidding them for jobs. Poor Americans workers are seriously hurt by illegals as the situation stands now.


To tackle illegal immigration/immigrants in any meaningful way the US will have to make some major changes/decisions.For example..

Employers. US has to get serious and impose meaningful penalties on employers.If it's a felony to be here illegally then make it a felony to hire illegals.

It's up to the employer to make sure payroll taxes are paid. If the "illegal" is using a bogus SSN to hold a legit job, then the money is going into the system (with the added bonus that the illegal will never draw out of SS). If they are being paid under the table, are they even being paid enough to pay income taxes?

Low wages. The fact that working for 40hrs @ the federal minimum wage leaves you below the federal poverty level is crazy. At the very least it should be indexed.

Mexico's economy. What can we do to improve it/build it up to make staying there more attractive to mexicans. Which leads to..

Farm subsidies. Allowing US farmers sell corn to Mexico cheaper than local growers has to contribute to the flow of workers here

Then there's the USCIS(INS)/DHS/FBI. They can't handle LEGAL immigration as it stands. How in god's name will they cope with an influx of millions people into the system?

Without a willingness to take on ALL the reasons/issues involved in illegal immigration it will never be brought down to manageable levels.

 

[Steeplerot]

I think your gathering all these strong patriots looking to protect america together in the cities to volunteer is a great idea, why didin't I think of this..

Let all these angry hannity hyped white american men gather thinking they are gonna get to forcefully deport the mexicans and oops, those buses are for YOU, YOUR GOING TO IRAQ! whoo hoo!

Plenty of extra jobs then for the immigrants to keep wages up and bush gets to have his iran invasion with a bigger military your a genius palehorse.

 

[palehorse]

The issues and steps as I see them:
1. physically secure the entire border.
2. speed up the legal methods of entry.
3. attack the forged document black market.
4. attack the companies who knowingly hire illegals and pay them under the table. (severe fines, probabtion, jail, etc)
5. digitize the entire process to include traceable ID's, scanners to test said ID's, etc.
6. deport as many as possible. (obviously not all, but the most blatant need to be expelled)
7. grant amnesty to those who can offer some sort of legitimate proof that they've been here 5 years or more. enter them into the new speedy legal immigration system.

All of that is going to take some serious $$, so I have no idea how they will implement them. But, all of those steps must be done to ensure this problem is fixed once and for all. Step 1 is obviously the most important out of all of them, and must be initiated right away...like yesterday.

ps: steeple, please aim your personal attacks elsewhere. I'm not taking your trollbait anymore. Consider yourself /ignore'd

 

[BDawg]

I really don't have a problem with people who want to be Americans. What I have a problem with is people who want to be Mexicans (insert other country) but want to use America for a lifestyle.

It pisses me off to see them go to USA / Mexico soccer matches and cheer against the US. These people seem to want to still be Mexicans. Keeping your culture and keeping your nationality are different.

Despite what was said on Lou Dobbs last night, it's not the same as Columbus Day or St. Pat's Day. They're the same as Cinquo Di Mayo, which I very much enjoy.

I don't get why people who want to work here can't just apply like everyone else? I hate the Mexican government's nod, nod, wink, wink response to the issue instead of fixing the problem. They enjoy the money sent back across the border.

For me, it's not a race thing. I have friends who are hispanic, came here legally, have legal jobs, pay for car insurrance, etc.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

lets not pigeonhole just Mexico...

here

Illegal immigrants make up less than 2% of the national population, with the vast majority concentrated in just a few states. While the stereotypical image of an illegal immigrant is of a Latino crossing the U.S. border at night, more than 40% of illegal immigrants are actually people who entered the country legally but overstayed their visas. Mexico does consistently supply more illegal immigrants than any other country, but recent figures show Canada and Poland to be the fourth and fifth most common source countries, respectively. These figures challenge the notion that illegal immigrants are all of a certain ethnic group or that they all enter the country in the same way.

In spite of this varied picture of the sources and methods of illegal immigration, a vastly disproportionate amount of enforcement activity is directed at Latin Americans generally, and Mexicans in particular. [ . . . ]The United States spends 85% of its anti-illegal immigration resources on border control, and southwest border enforcement accounted for 89% of what the INS terms ?deportable aliens located? in 1997.

Only four in ten illegal immigrants, however, enters the United States through the Mexican border. Though estimates of the percentage of illegal immigrants from Mexico range from 39% to 54%,78 over 90% of illegal immigrants apprehended are Mexican. The decision to place higher priority on border interdiction than on locating and deporting visa overstayers further magnifies the disparate treatment of Mexican and Central American illegal immigrants. Visa overstayers make up just 16% of Mexican and 26% of Central American illegal immigrants, but they constitute 91% of the illegal population from the rest of the world. This prioritization has only become more pronounced in recent years; since 1994, there has been a 122% increase in Border Patrol agents, and two thousand immigration inspectors have been added

 

[0roo0roo]

Immediate amnesty to all illegals who have been here 5 years or longer. Amnesty could include a modified Green Card that allows workers to work in the States for a period of time

doesn't work. amnesty didn't work last time, it won't work this time. it rewards breaking the law and people who become illegals know this. its a big fat carrot being dangled out along with the higher american wages. whats needed is a crack down. a wall along the border to make it more difficult because while nothing is 100%, enforcement is a deterent. sure some of us speed, but if there were no high way patrol cars we'd all speed,all the time. any illegals should have to go back ot their home country and reapply as guest workers and go through that system to perhaps recieve legal status. no one should be rewarded for breaking the law by being jumped ahead in line. they are no more deserving than others around the world that want to come here. some places far worse than mexico..like darfur.

create a system where people have verifiable id with a central database. we have swiped credit cards and are verfied instantly for years now. so its not impossible at all. sure some will defeat it, but the cost will be much higher. companies should be heavily penalized for knowingly highering illegals. dry up the jobs, make it hard to cross and they will stop. take away the rewards.

now i know we need troops. so if some are willing to fight, that is enough for citizenship.

illegals just benifit the empoyers and the wealthy. its a sneaky way of undermining the working class, by essentially outsourcing jobs that have no business being outsourced. americans won't work at those jobs? please. americans work when paid a living wage. and in a free and fair market system where illegals don't distort wages, the market will set the price for such work..at american wage levels, not what is good in mexico. and dont tell me its impossible. or that food will cost a fortune, last i checked labor costs were only 10% of agricultural cost. not to mention the illegals are false economy to begin with, like walmart workers they are paid very low wages, and then become dependent on government services. the society pays the costs in the end. the so called social security money illegals leave behind wouldn't even pay for the cost of educating illegals children in just california. you can't get high taxes out of low wages,so dont tell me they pay for themselves.
they are a leech on the system that distorts the system for the most vulnerable americans so a few of the more wealthy empoyers can benifit.

its like the cost of oil and renewable energy and other solutions to conserve. most are unviable when oil is really cheap. but when oil goes up like it is now more and more renewable energy development is viable. more and more companies come up with solutions like hybrids or whatever. so it will be with higher wages. more and more automation will become viable. those who support illegal immigration just put out a false notion that we just have to rely on exploitatively cheap labor or perish. its a load of hooey. oh, last i checked energy prices in countries in europe and such are much higher, yet they survive nothing is impossible, except when dealing with activists who's real agenda is to flood their own kind over the border so they can gain more political power for themselves at any cost.

dont even get into the enviromental cost. sierra club might have their heads up their keisters but more people = more enviromental impact. its just that simple. theres no magic future where everyone suddenly becomes low enviromental impact hippies with solar panels living off the grid as grass eating vegans.

meh, but politicians are in the pockets of employers, they could care less about american workers. so i have little hope of a real solution instead of some kind of politically correct patch job.

http://www.heritage.org/

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: palehorse74

It's not just their motivated, tired, or sick coming our way, it's also their drug-dealers, gangbangers, and otherwise undesirable folk... YAY!

All people have there own group of troublemakers, poverty makes more also, On a whole mexicans have been damn polite and law abiding immigrants if you compare them to the irish and their riots. Get a grip.

Save me your tirade how mexicans are lazy dirty crime ridden gangbangers and just call them beaners or something ok? They know what you really think and it shows.

Notice how he makes racial comments about the Irish who came here legally and calls others racist for harping on those who didn't follow the laws to come here........

If racism is involved on our part how come we don't have a problem with legal Mexican immigration. I am 100% against illegal immigration. My girlfriend of 5 years is half Mexican. Her mom is an illegal immigrant. I guess you could say my girlfriend's 3 older brother's and herself are anchor babies. Guess what I would deport her mom in an instand if it was my choice and her daughter knows my views and still chooses to date me.......Would I be in a 5-year relationship with a hispanic girl if I was racist? Probably not............And you can shove your racist Irish comments up you know where.....Don't disrespect my ancestors because you're infatuated with Hillary........

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Steeplerot,

If you care to address these points, please do, I wonder what your opinion is on the matter.

Point #1
I fully believe that all immigrants can become americans and that they are 'good enough'. It has nothing to do with them being illegal or not. It is not a Racism issue to me.

I do not disagree with this, but I do not see labeling them illegals when it was our poorly layed out unrealistic laws that were created by racism that made the problem i n the first place, it is a crap position to be in as a mexican but it was inevitable becasue of our laws. They were just doing the best for their familys and have not caused us much trouble imo, regardless of what people try to say a lot have risks there freedom to come here in the first place and maintain false SS numbers just to be productive, AND pay taxes they know they will never get returns for.

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Point #2
If the government would regulate and check if all these illegal immigrants are paying taxes and ss just like every other American, they can stay IMHO because they are productive members of society and they have a right to be here as able bodies citizens.

I agree, if they have clean records and are productive it would be foolish to drive them out, a fine of some sort would be a good idea, but I could more see the employers over the past few years deserving of the fine more then the worker, I am not sure of this yet.

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Point #3
People like you undermine all the immigrants that have come here legally. And please don't tell me that we have it 'easier' than anyone else. It took my family (and only with the aid of a U.S company) 4 months to get a H1 Visa. And what this meant was standing in line for weeks at a time to talk to a U.S immigration officer in the U.S Embassy. Yes, you stand in line for 12 hours, you get a ticket and come back to stand for 12 hours more the next day based on your place in line the day before.

After that the application for a Green Card was even more stressful, because if you don't get that you have to go back home. We went through that as well.

With the rate of illegals coming into the U.S I seriously doubt they all have the proper paperwork to work here to begin with. A lot of it is under the table.

A lot is under the table, but then a lot also have green cards and falsified IDs they have been forced to get, it is not a fair situation but the law itself is a unfair and as I said racist OLD policy, there is a great wrong done in the past, and I am not sure if a I am sorry is enough to correct those that did go through proper process over the years, but legal immigrants have had a easier time in a lot of ways then someone always fearing deportation and having to use false ID's they have also been through hell in a way, to do nothing less then be productive members of society.

It is not fair to just about anyone and IS a big problem, but the chest thumping and discrimination over people here to work looking for the same chance the rest of the immigrants here had is hypocritical on many levels, I agree that none of this is fair, but if you get down to the law that made this, it is obvious why, it is straight from the KKK, trouble down the road is inevitable when people like that drive lawmaking, now we are in a real mess.

Most intelligent post I've heard all day! "The law itself is unfair"......I guess if I feel a law is unfair I won't follow it. Who are they to make laws that I don't agree with! Obviously, in our country if a law is wrong there's a way to change it and right now it looks like over 70% of the people in this country feel the law is fair...........I tend to disagree- it's not fair. We need armed military at our borders shooting the ILLEGAL "INVADERS".

Please remember steeple in all your negative comments about Irish that the Irish people came here and broke their ties to home. They didn't come here to send money back to Ireland- they embraced America and they embraced its culture and tradition while adding some of their own.

Most illegals don't even take the time to learn the language of this land and they definately don't break their ties to Mexico. They come here, work, and send the money back to their country while at the same time leeching off our schools, medical and other facilities.

Legal Mexican Immigrants do not do this. And even if they do- once they become a citizen of this country that is their freedom to do what they want. Illegals' however are basically spitting in the face of those who came here the right way.....

 

[Bitek]

We have to get illegal immigration under control, but I don't see the point or fairness of getting so pissed at the Mexicans who have some here and more than anything worked extremely hard in crappy jobs for low wages. These people have left their homes, families and culture to risk death to travel here and provided much needed cash to their families at home. How many of us would do that? A lot of americans could learn form that work ethic.

Who deserves the blame is our own gov't for the wink-wink approval of this for years and doing nothing, only now to finally go apeshit wanting to throw them in jail after we've already let 12M come in and reshape our economy. Let's not let ourselves get distracted here.

We need some level of immigration, but the balance is way off. Some need to be returned, but long term we have to get control of the flow, curtail the draw here for illegal workers, and really work and push the Mexican gov't to change and have that country develop. If the draw is strong enough there will always be ways here no matter how high we build the walls.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Immediate amnesty to all illegals who have been here 5 years or longer. Amnesty could include a modified Green Card that allows workers to work in the States for a period of time

doesn't work. amnesty didn't work last time, it won't work this time. it rewards breaking the law and people who become illegals know this. its a big fat carrot being dangled out along with the higher american wages. whats needed is a crack down. a wall along the border to make it more difficult because while nothing is 100%, enforcement is a deterent. sure some of us speed, but if there were no high way patrol cars we'd all speed,all the time. any illegals should have to go back ot their home country and reapply as guest workers and go through that system to perhaps recieve legal status. no one should be rewarded for breaking the law by being jumped ahead in line. they are no more deserving than others around the world that want to come here. some places far worse than mexico..like darfur.

create a system where people have verifiable id with a central database. we have swiped credit cards and are verfied instantly for years now. so its not impossible at all. sure some will defeat it, but the cost will be much higher. companies should be heavily penalized for knowingly highering illegals. dry up the jobs, make it hard to cross and they will stop. take away the rewards.

now i know we need troops. so if some are willing to fight, that is enough for citizenship.

illegals just benifit the empoyers and the wealthy. its a sneaky way of undermining the working class, by essentially outsourcing jobs that have no business being outsourced. americans won't work at those jobs? please. americans work when paid a living wage. and in a free and fair market system where illegals don't distort wages, the market will set the price for such work..at american wage levels, not what is good in mexico. and dont tell me its impossible. or that food will cost a fortune, last i checked labor costs were only 10% of agricultural cost. not to mention the illegals are false economy to begin with, like walmart workers they are paid very low wages, and then become dependent on government services. the society pays the costs in the end. the so called social security money illegals leave behind wouldn't even pay for the cost of educating illegals children in just california. you can't get high taxes out of low wages,so dont tell me they pay for themselves.
they are a leech on the system that distorts the system for the most vulnerable americans so a few of the more wealthy empoyers can benifit.

its like the cost of oil and renewable energy and other solutions to conserve. most are unviable when oil is really cheap. but when oil goes up like it is now more and more renewable energy development is viable. more and more companies come up with solutions like hybrids or whatever. so it will be with higher wages. more and more automation will become viable. those who support illegal immigration just put out a false notion that we just have to rely on exploitatively cheap labor or perish. its a load of hooey. oh, last i checked energy prices in countries in europe and such are much higher, yet they survive nothing is impossible, except when dealing with activists who's real agenda is to flood their own kind over the border so they can gain more political power for themselves at any cost.

dont even get into the enviromental cost. sierra club might have their heads up their keisters but more people = more enviromental impact. its just that simple. theres no magic future where everyone suddenly becomes low enviromental impact hippies with solar panels living off the grid as grass eating vegans.

meh, but politicians are in the pockets of employers, they could care less about american workers. so i have little hope of a real solution instead of some kind of politically correct patch job.

http://www.heritage.org/

Think of it this way, amesty for the illegal immigrants are not there to benefit those people, it is there to benefit those American citizens associated with those illegal immigrants.

Nobody is talking about amesty for those illegal immigrants who just got here. Most people talk about amesty for those that's been here 5, 10 years. Most of those illegal immigrants that's been here 5, 10 years have stable jobs and many have kids and spouse that are American citizen. You wanna deport those illegal immigrants? Well, fine, then millions of American citizen associated with them are gonna be impacted a great deal.

I am not saying I support wide open boarder for everyone to come into America. There is definitely a need for tougher boarder control and deportation system for illegal immigrants that are caught. But for those who have been here a long time, for those who have been a contributor to this society and already have family here, you gotta have a way to let them stay here legally, or you are gonna hurt American citizens associated with those people.

And by the way, many people are right that the US immigration system sucks and it is tough to go through the government red tape to get legal status in the US. I am sure a high percentage of illegal immigrants wouldn't be in a illegal status if the process were easier. How is it fair to punish those people, many are honest, hard working people with family here, just because the government is inefficient and incompetent.

 

[Jmman]

A couple of quick comments. The vast majority of illegal aliens here are not working under the table, not picking "cotton", etc. They are working in restaurants, bars, landscaping, etc. They simply pay someone for a fake resident alien card and social security number. If they present them to the employer the employers only responsibility is that they "appear" genuine. In most cases they do not even attempt to verify that they are geniune since there really is no system to do that. And as far as the tax issue, to say that illegals are paying taxes and that they are getting ripped off since they cannot file a return is a flat out joke. They simply claim 15 dependents and virtually nothing is withheld from their check. Do you honestly think they are going to let the government withhold lots of money from their check?