Voter Fraud!

[QuantumPion]

But... the Brennan Center survey (which, mind you has *no flaws*) is the only one opponents seem to want to cite.

What are you talking about? Read the bolded parts in the article. The justice department itself - the organization claiming requiring photo id's = disenfranchisement - could not find a single real case of voter disenfranchisement in their lawsuit against Texas.

 

[zinfamous]

So in other words Liberals

1.) Massively overstate the number of people without ID

2.) Say all evidence of voter fraud doesnt count



sounds to me like Democrats are just in favor of voter fraud to me.

Or...you could simply apply the data in that article rationally, with all the other data, and acknowledge what both say:

1. There is no voter fraud. period.
2. No one needs ID's to vote, because they already have them


Hence, this entire "voter fraud" issue is nothing but a mild distraction from issues that likely actually matter. Both sides are guilty.

 

[alkemyst]

I agree. We should open up online voting and make it all single issues and even fill in the blank.

There is no way a Cartoon character would be elected, yet the people believe this is why it's a bad idea.

 

[FuzzyBee]

What are you talking about? Read the bolded parts in the article. The justice department itself - the organization claiming requiring photo id's = disenfranchisement - could not find a single real case of voter disenfranchisement in their lawsuit against Texas.

[sarcasm]

 

[Jhhnn]

No, it's not. Neither are recorded. People jaywalk *ALL THE TIME*, yet I'd net you could find record of very few instances. By your ignorant "logic", jaywalking never happens - after all, how do you find out about it after the fact?

How in the world would you pursue jaywalking *after it occurred*? It's like pursing kids using faked IDs *months after they bought beer*.

You just discredit yourself with your blatant attempts to try to convince everybody there is a definitive answer, when there obviously isn't.

That's beyond lame- it's pure bluster.

*Voter fraud* has been the great witch hunt of Repubs for a decade or so, yet their efforts to prove its existence with enforcement have been utterly dismal. It's not like they haven't tried, like they haven't expended considerable effort, like they haven't gone so far as to fire US Attorneys who didn't toe the party line, either. They've turned over every rock & poked into every crevice.

So why have they failed? Because there's basically nothing to it all other than a partisan witch hunt.

It's not the same as jaywalking, at all, where there's basically no enforcement other than in cases of extreme stupidity. Cops in NYC could issues thousands of citations per day, if they wanted to. They don't.

Yet diligent witch hunters in Repub led states can't even find enough witches to bother with, even when voter fraud is a crime that would often leaves a paper trail. Go figure, huh?

The definitive answer? Voter fraud is a molehill represented as a mountain, and belief among righties that it is a mountain is the result of fearmongering & propaganda. It has just the right racist tinge to be effective & appealing while allowing plausible deniability, too.

 

[FuzzyBee]

That's beyond lame- it's pure bluster.

*Voter fraud* has been the great witch hunt of Repubs for a decade or so, yet their efforts to prove its existence with enforcement have been utterly dismal. It's not like they haven't tried, like they haven't expended considerable effort, like they haven't gone so far as to fire US Attorneys who didn't toe the party line, either. They've turned over every rock & poked into every crevice.

So why have they failed? Because there's basically nothing to it all other than a partisan witch hunt.

It's not the same as jaywalking, at all, where there's basically no enforcement other than in cases of extreme stupidity. Cops in NYC could issues thousands of citations per day, if they wanted to. They don't.

Yet diligent witch hunters in Repub led states can't even find enough witches to bother with, even when voter fraud is a crime that would often leaves a paper trail. Go figure, huh?

The definitive answer? Voter fraud is a molehill represented as a mountain, and belief among righties that it is a mountain is the result of fearmongering & propaganda. It has just the right racist tinge to be effective & appealing while allowing plausible deniability, too.

HOW? How is there a "paper trail" if individual "A" knows that individual "B" never votes, so they're going to vote "for" them? Please don't say "eventually, person B would vote", because that's not actually an answer you could prove.

You keep repeating the same fallacy as if that's going to make it a truth. If that's what you call "logic", you really shouldn't be proclaiming it.

Lame, indeed. I'm done with you, because you're full of intentional blind ignorance.

 

[Jhhnn]

The liberal proof that there is no voter fraud is the same as stick a blind man in the forest and then claiming that since he does not see any trees there must not be any.

And then when he says he can feel bark and leaves saying that does not count since he cannot SEE any trees.

How dim. It's more like putting the blind man in the middle of the sand hills, telling him it's a forest. When he remarks that he's not touching any trees, despite a lot of wandering around, Repubs tell him he's just not looking hard enough...

When pressed about the paucity of trees, Repubs offer that it *could* be a forest to believe in, if only the blind guy showed a little more faith... The Great Plains are really just a clearing in the middle of the vast forest of North America, after all...

They're as deliberately obtuse as the pet shop owner in Monte Python's dead parrot sketch...

 

[micrometers]

Seriously, voter fraud IMO is highly unlikely to actually occur.

To start off, it is very resource intensive. You'd have to have a very good database that showed the fake voter where to show up as well as print up a fake ID for that person.

Then that person would have to show up and wait in line to cast a vote.

Then he'd have to go to another polling station, pick up another fake id, and wait in line again to cast a vote.

Honestly, I"d guess that someone might be able to cast 5, 10 votes tops on voting day this way.

To really make an impact you'd have to have hundreds of people doing this across the country.

Without detection.

Seriously, it's impossible.

 

[Jhhnn]

HOW? How is there a "paper trail" if individual "A" knows that individual "B" never votes, so they're going to vote "for" them? Please don't say "eventually, person B would vote", because that's not actually an answer you could prove.

You keep repeating the same fallacy as if that's going to make it a truth. If that's what you call "logic", you really shouldn't be proclaiming it.

Lame, indeed. I'm done with you, because you're full of intentional blind ignorance.

So, uhh, if that actually happened, something for which you have no proof whatsoever, then in at least a small % of such instances the supposed non-voter would actually show up, wouldn't they? Or are you claiming that such a strategy would always be 100% successful?

Where are those instances?

Why would anybody take such a risk, anyway, realizing that there's no real upside to it?

Where is this Bigfoot, anyway?

 

[micrometers]

A bigger problem is simply corruption among the vote counters, not people casting fraudulent votes. If I were going to steal an election, I would basically try to make sure that my people were in charge of the voting booths. It is much simpler that way and it is harder to prove fraud.

 

[Bowfinger]

HOW? How is there a "paper trail" if individual "A" knows that individual "B" never votes, so they're going to vote "for" them? Please don't say "eventually, person B would vote", because that's not actually an answer you could prove.

You keep repeating the same fallacy as if that's going to make it a truth. If that's what you call "logic", you really shouldn't be proclaiming it.

Lame, indeed. I'm done with you, because you're full of intentional blind ignorance.

In order for voter A to know, with certainty, that voter B will not vote, they must be in collusion. In such a case, it would be much easier for A to simply submit an absentee ballot for B.

If instead, voter A merely believes voter B is unlikely to vote, then voter A stands a chance of being detected if he impersonates voter B. While voter A's odds are favorable if he casts a single fraudulent vote, his impact on the election is also effectively immaterial. Voter A can form a team and cast many fraudulent votes, but each one increases the odds of detection. Long before they reach the point of materially impacting the election, their chances of detection approach certainty ... and that ignores the fact that the more people who are involved, the more likely some of them are to talk.

In short, there are two scenarios for someone who wants to cast enough fraudulent votes to affect an election. Option 1, he can assemble a huge team of fraudulent voters, each of whom can spend an entire day to cast 5-10 in-person ballots. His team runs a significant risk that some will be caught red-handed due to duplicate ballots.

Or, Option 2, he can from the privacy of his own home or office cast hundreds of absentee ballots, safely outside the reach of any voter photo ID laws. While the chances of detection are the same (for the same number of fraudulent ballots), his personal risk is near zero since he is anonymous and never has to go near the polls. All authorities will know is someone cast a lot of fraudulent ballots, detected due to the statistical certainty that some of the impersonated voters will actually vote too.

Now, which approach is any rational person going to take?

Of course neither approach is as good as having someone on the inside who can tamper with the ballots (also completely immune to any voter photo ID laws). This is exactly why that is the preferred approach, rather than penny-ante fraud committed with individual ballots.

And this, my friend, is how we know what these RNC laws are really about: voter suppression. They are a calculated plan to disenfranchise a segment of voters who tend to vote for Democrats.

 

[umbrella39]

People aren't motivated enough to get off their ass and change their TV channels yet they muster the courage and energy to en mass cast multiple votes each election... GOP... stop this stupidity once and for all. Get a new playbook FFS.

 

[xj0hnx]

This is, once again, for the umpteenth time, the Bigfoot argument.

Nobody can say with absolute certainty that Bigfoot doesn't exist, and it's the same wrt voter fraud. All kinds of elaborate excuses & scenarios can be fabricated in support of the hypothesis that it does in meaningful measure, and the side effects of that, & of trying to stop Bigfoot are thrown to the wind, because we must stop voter fraud & Bigfoot!

The sad truth is that the side effect, disenfranchisement, is the desired result, because those promoting the conspiracy theory know that voter fraud is every bit as much a chimera as Bigfoot... and have said as much many times.

It's all part & parcel of the notion that there is no sin when you have God on your side, that the ends justify the means.

If Righties are so sure that their ideas will prevail at the polls & in the "marketplace of ideas" that they tout so highly, why do they want to keep people from participating?

Because they care not for democracy in the slightest, other than as a fig leaf, a claim to legitimacy as hollow as their ideology-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw

So, it can't be proven that it's happening, and it can't be proven that it's not, but the people that want to take measures to help ensure it doesn't happen are the crazy ones? HAHAHA You liberals are a bunch of delusional loons.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

It is happening. I didn't want to say anything to bring attention to myself on the internet, and trust me some of the people in here are working for them, but I figure they're just going to end up killing me anyways because I've already left posts all over the internet warning people and trying to wake everyone up to what is actually going on...and trust me they already know who is doing this and you are their only remaining enemy.

You all need a serious reality check. They installed voting computers when they did for a reason. Voter fraud is an illusion, you aren't even voting anymore. You need to stop listening to their hired propaganda puppets and wake up people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvoZCtpYCRI

We are IN STAGE 3.

 

[nehalem256]

So, uhh, if that actually happened, something for which you have no proof whatsoever, then in at least a small % of such instances the supposed non-voter would actually show up, wouldn't they? Or are you claiming that such a strategy would always be 100% successful?

Proof was given on the first page of the thread. But since it cannot be shown who specifically engaged in the fraud, because we do not verify ID before voting, you said it doesnt count :\

 

[fskimospy]

So, it can't be proven that it's happening, and it can't be proven that it's not, but the people that want to take measures to help ensure it doesn't happen are the crazy ones? HAHAHA You liberals are a bunch of delusional loons.

lol, you didn't think this one through. It is impossible to prove a negative in ALL things in this world without perfect knowledge. You also can't prove that the voting machines aren't being rigged by space gnomes that live inside of them, but when people want to take measure to help ensure that doesn't happen they would in fact be crazy.

It all boils down to this:
1.) Republicans would like to make it more difficult to vote in order to prevent in-person voter fraud.
2.) There is no evidence that in-person voter fraud exists in any meaningful amount.
3.) Therefore Republicans are trying to make it more difficult to vote to stop something that doesn't happen. This is 'delusional lunacy'.

 

[fskimospy]

Proof was given on the first page of the thread. But since it cannot be shown who specifically engaged in the fraud, because we do not verify ID before voting, you said it doesnt count :\

lol. I love how your 'proof' to justify voter ID is a situation that voter ID would not have stopped.

 

[Jhhnn]

Proof was given on the first page of the thread. But since it cannot be shown who specifically engaged in the fraud, because we do not verify ID before voting, you said it doesnt count :\

Beating the same imaginary drum, I see. You've proven no such thing, certainly not in a way that justifies action intended to disenfranchise many more than would be righteously prevented from voting.

At best, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[nehalem256]

lol. I love how your 'proof' to justify voter ID is a situation that voter ID would not have stopped.

Not necessarily.

If

1.) Someone stole the immigrants identity they would have lacked his ID. Fraud prevented.

2.) If the immigrant voted illegally we would have proof it was him and he could now be prosecuted. Maybe he would have wanted to avoid prosecution and so not voted illegaly.

 

[Jhhnn]

So, it can't be proven that it's happening, and it can't be proven that it's not, but the people that want to take measures to help ensure it doesn't happen are the crazy ones? HAHAHA You liberals are a bunch of delusional loons.

Bigfoot! Roswell! Area 51! One World Order! Iraqi WMD's! No birth certificate! 200 Communists in the State Dept!

Must pertekt Merica!

The truth is that 100% participation in voting by every eligible citizen would annihilate Repubs at the polls, so they'll always try to motivate their base with lies while doing their best to prevent wider suffrage. The whole hue & cry wrt "voter fraud" is designed to accomplish both.

If you lose, it wuz because you wuz cheated by illegals voting, and if you win with deliberately restricted participation, it's because everybody knew you wuz right all along.

You already believe it.

 

[a777pilot]

More and more info....

http://reaganiterepublicanresistanc.../160-us-counties-have-more-registered-to.html

 

[cybrsage]

To really make an impact you'd have to have hundreds of people doing this across the country.

Without detection.

How do you detect, since you cannot verify identities? Also, you do not need a lot of votes changed:

Governor George W. Bush officially won Florida's electoral votes, by a margin of only 537 votes out of almost 6 million cast, and as a result, the entire presidential election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000

The presidential election was decided by only 537 votes.

 

[cybrsage]

You already believe it.

You are doing exactly what you decry of others. You believe it is not happening and therefor it is not. No matter how many times people show you cases of it happening, you simply cry they do not count, pretend they never happened, and move on unplussed.

To you, this has become a religion.

 

[micrometers]

How do you detect, since you cannot verify identities? Also, you do not need a lot of votes changed:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Florida,_2000

The presidential election was decided by only 537 votes.

you would detect a conspiracy obviously, since it would require criminal coordination

 

[cybrsage]

you would detect a conspiracy obviously, since it would require criminal coordination

How do you detect a conspiracy, since there is no way to see they are actually breaking the law? To investigate and find a conspiracy, you have to realize something wrong is happening. Without the ability to verify the voter is who he says he is, there is no way to know he is lying about who he says he is.