Ask me if I care.
They accept bitcoin, what they do with them after the fact is irrelevant to my interests.
Ask me if I care.
They accept bitcoin, what they do with them after the fact is irrelevant to my interests.
The way I look at it, is until the car dealership puts the car's price in bitcoins at the dealership, they aren't really accepting the bitcoin as money. (the website seems to have only prices in USD)
To me, it's similar to accepting VISA as a form of payment.
Either a shill or a complete fool. I mean, even his own dictionary definition precludes bitcoin being a currency, and he just ignores the parts he doesn't like.
I suppose "both" is also possible.
I suppose "both" is also possible.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 41
- 91
Assuming that your interest is in bitcoin being treated as a currency, then what you've said is simply not correct.
If they are accepting the payments but immediately converting them to other currency, then all they're doing is accepting the bitcoins in a barter transaction. When you trade in an old car as partial payment for a new car, the old car isn't "currency." It's simply a barter transaction that the dealership accepts because it increases the volume of their business and the potential losses are offset by the volume increase. That's not the business treating the bitcoins as a "currency" but rather the business taking something in barter. Very different treatment on an economic level.
ZV
I love this.
When (rational) people say something is "undervalued", they are saying that it is undervalued compared to something else. For a stock, it might be based on a comparison to other stocks in the same sector, or P/E ratios, or divident payouts, or growth analysis. For a commodity, it is based on historical price trends and projected demand patterns.
Bitcoins are created from thin air. They have nothing behind them: no government with taxation power, no company earning profits, and there's very little you can do with them. As for price trends? Classic bubble.
So, what exactly is the basis for saying they are "undervalued" -- aside from your personal interest in promoting these items because you own them?
When you buy a Samsung product, some of those USD you spend are converted to South Korean won 원 to pay the employees. So apparently you aren't actually using USD as a currency, but rather using it as a form of barter.
See, I can make the same absurd argument!
The breakdown occurs when you realize that is the entire purpose of a currency, to serve as a medium of exchange for use in barter, something more convenient than dealing in livestock or lumber but barter nonetheless.
You got me. Satoshi himself pays me $5000/month, with a bonus if I get a lot of responses to one of my posts.
Not really, you have simply revealed your complete ignorance. Bitcoin isn't an organization. It's a free and open concept based on open software and a network of willing participants. Even though it is free, it holds great value, but despite your delusion there is no central authority or controlling interest and certainly nobody in a position to pay others to promote bitcoin.
Bitcoin is simply the currency of the future. If you don't want to use it today, that is fine. You probably have 10 more years of denial you can go through before your refusal to adapt will hurt you.
They are undervalued as a currency. There is incredible value in a currency that can't be controlled by any central authority. There is incredible value in a currency that can be sent swiftly and safely anywhere on the internet for a very small fee. There is incredible value in a currency that holds and even gains value in the face of USD erosion. There is incredible value in a currency that can be safely saved and covertly moved without threat of government THEFT, like what occurred in the united states when gold was seized from citizens.
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I'm curious: how will I be hurt by my refusal to buy bitcoin with my USD?
Do you see a day where bitcoins are the only accepted currency, the USD goes by the wayside, no longer able to trade them for bitcoin, where all items are priced in fractions of bitconis?
Maybe.
But more likely, if bitcoin reaches a critical point, it could precipitate a USD crash. If bitcoin reaches fairly wide acceptance, say 30% of the world, it starts to become a no-brainer.
Why keep money in USD and see it erode through inflation when you could instead store it as BTC and see your savings gain value?
If acceptance reaches the point where the majority start doing this, there will suddenly be ZERO reason to keep any USD around at all. As people frantically try to convert all their USD into bitcoin, the dollar becomes worthless.
It's a sort of Prisoner's dilemma- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
If NOBODY buys into bitcoin, then you get to keep your USD value. But if someone buys in, the person who buys into bitcoin first comes out as the big winner. In a capitalistic economy we have where making money is the only important metric, what incentive does everyone have to not be the first prisoner to talk? None. It's going to happen, eventually. You won't be happy if you are the last one left holding the dollars.
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Gonna have to agree to disagree here. Inflatioin is going to happen regardless of which money system you're paying with.
20% of the world uses RMB, and that hasn't triggered any kind of convergence to one currency. Heck USD is probably the world's strongest historical currency, and the rest of the world still carries their own currencies.
>Inflatioin is going to happen regardless of which money system you're paying with.
By inflation, I mean the direct creation of money done by the government. Bitcoin doesn't have that problem, can't have that problem, and that won't change with time.
Bitcoin has numerous advantages. RMB has none of them, nor does any other currency in existence. Bitcoin is really the first and only currency which is impossible to inflate. It's not going to act like existing currency because it is superior to them.
By inflation, I mean the direct creation of money done by the government. Bitcoin doesn't have that problem, can't have that problem, and that won't change with time.
Bitcoin has numerous advantages. RMB has none of them, nor does any other currency in existence. Bitcoin is really the first and only currency which is impossible to inflate. It's not going to act like existing currency because it is superior to them.
Sorry, are you talking about investing? Again, BTC acts as a commodity or stock, not a currency. Until businesses actually keep their bitcoins beyond instantaneous conversion to a ... currency, BTC is just an intermediate method.
I could walk into a dealership and buy a car with APPL stock if they are interested in doing the exchange, but most likely they would want me to do my own legwork and cash out of the stock and buy the car with currency.
I guess I could buy a car with xbox points too (if they are transferable?).
Kind of like... gold? There is only a set amount of gold in the world, thus it should be the basis of all currency. We could call it the Gold Standard. I wonder why we left that?
Try to follow along. That is *after* bitcoin gets widespread acceptance, such as 30% overall worldwide. I've said over and over that bitcoin is volatile because of it's incredible growth. You can't double the number of users every month without seeing value pushed up due to demand, the math just doesn't work that way. Once acceptance reaches critical levels, the currency will become a bit more stable. Right now a wealthy individual or organization can push the market value around a lot through a single large trade, that won't be possible when bitcoin market value is 1000 times what it is today.
And really it's all relative. USD isn't stable, but when you only compare it to itself it can appear to be. One day bitcoin will be the standard, and USD will appear to be incredibly volatile in relation.
dave_the_nerd
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2011
- 16,992
- 1,620
- 126
Critical difference is that we did leave it. USD backed by gold was never what bitcoin is, because all it takes is one congressional decree and suddenly the gold standard is gone.
Gold backed USD, in retrospect, was NOT a safe investment because that backing could be removed so easily by the government.
Bitcoin doesn't have that problem. Nobody can change the terms of the currency after the fact without near complete agreement.
SSSnail
Lifer
- Nov 29, 2006
- 17,458
- 83
- 86
Chipotlerant, maybe we should use your anus as a currency; it's a bartering tool, sort of, in some circles; it fluctuates by hundreds of percent everyday; it's even more valuable because it has a physical presence. I think we should give that a run, any objections?
But, for you nay sayers out there, I think he might be on to something. :hmm:
I here by declare snail coins. Each of the snail coin is worth 1 US dollar, there are only 1 million of them. I guarantee that the exchange rate will always be 1 to 1, and if you need larger bills for larger transactions, there's the super snail coin, each is worth 1002 regular snail coins. If you need to have even larger denomination, there's a super sonic snail coin, I haven't made up my mind on the exchange rate for this super rare coin yet. Oh, and all your transactions are untraceable, because I'm horrible with records. All you have to do is pay a small fee for each transaction.
But, for you nay sayers out there, I think he might be on to something. :hmm:
I here by declare snail coins. Each of the snail coin is worth 1 US dollar, there are only 1 million of them. I guarantee that the exchange rate will always be 1 to 1, and if you need larger bills for larger transactions, there's the super snail coin, each is worth 1002 regular snail coins. If you need to have even larger denomination, there's a super sonic snail coin, I haven't made up my mind on the exchange rate for this super rare coin yet. Oh, and all your transactions are untraceable, because I'm horrible with records. All you have to do is pay a small fee for each transaction.
SSSnail
Lifer
- Nov 29, 2006
- 17,458
- 83
- 86
Chipotlerant, maybe we should use your anus as a currency; it's a bartering tool, sort of, in some circles; it fluctuates by hundreds of percent everyday; it's even more valuable because it has a physical presence. I think we should give that a run, any objections?
But, for you nay sayers out there, I think he might be on to something. :hmm:
I here by declare snail coins. Each of the snail coin is worth 1 US dollar, there are only 1 million of them. I guarantee that the exchange rate will always be 1 to 1, and if you need larger bills for larger transactions, there's the super snail coin, each is worth 1002 regular snail coins. If you need to have even larger denomination, there's a super sonic snail coin, I haven't made up my mind on the exchange rate for this super rare coin yet. Oh, and all your transactions are untraceable, because I'm horrible with records. All you have to do is pay a small fee for each transaction.
But, for you nay sayers out there, I think he might be on to something. :hmm:
I here by declare snail coins. Each of the snail coin is worth 1 US dollar, there are only 1 million of them. I guarantee that the exchange rate will always be 1 to 1, and if you need larger bills for larger transactions, there's the super snail coin, each is worth 1002 regular snail coins. If you need to have even larger denomination, there's a super sonic snail coin, I haven't made up my mind on the exchange rate for this super rare coin yet. Oh, and all your transactions are untraceable, because I'm horrible with records. All you have to do is pay a small fee for each transaction.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 72,378
- 32,953
- 136
<snort> All it takes is one act of Congress (signed by the Pres) and bitcoin is gone. <poof> Hell, a determination by the Treasury or Justice Dept or a court ruling somewhere that bitcoin is an illegal currency could kill it off. Sure, bitcoin proponents could head to court and, eventually, win but the damage would be done and bitcoin would be gone.
And to save you the trouble of arguing the global nature of bitcoin, if it gets kills in the US, it dead.
Also, on a side note: I was agnostic on bitcoin until this thread. Your arguments promoting bitcoin are your own worst enemy.
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I'd like to share a revelation that I've had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify our dollars. I realized that they're not actually money. Money acts not only as a medium of exchange but as a store of value. Every form of money throughout history has followed this principle, but our dollars do not. They are issued as naked debt instruments by banks and the interest multiplies and multiplies until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can pay back the debt is to print more money. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Dollars are a disease, a cancer of this planet, they are a plague, and bitcoins are the cure.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 72,378
- 32,953
- 136
Your arguments promoting bitcoin are your own worst enemy. But I repeat myself.
I repeat as I said above to another poster: ask me if I care.
Please don't use bitcoin. It'll be a net benefit in the new economy that the stubborn and foolish start out at a disadvantage
And banning bitcoin would just be a wonderful move for the government. That worked so well for drugs! Not like drugs are actually worth a lot more now than when they were legal, simply because of the artificial scarcity the government creates.
Prohibition was one of the most successful acts of our government too, might as well try it again, this time on something as harmless as digital currency. i'm sure it will be easy to enforce too!
Please don't use bitcoin. It'll be a net benefit in the new economy that the stubborn and foolish start out at a disadvantage
And banning bitcoin would just be a wonderful move for the government. That worked so well for drugs! Not like drugs are actually worth a lot more now than when they were legal, simply because of the artificial scarcity the government creates.
Prohibition was one of the most successful acts of our government too, might as well try it again, this time on something as harmless as digital currency. i'm sure it will be easy to enforce too!
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 41
- 91
(1) Immediate conversion even of items held by the business and not paid out is not economically similar to delayed conversion due to being legally required to pay employees in a specified currency.
(2) When you buy a Samsung phone in USD, that money is NOT converted to South Korean Won with anything resembling immediacy. The US subsidiary of Samsung holds USD internally and used USD for all its internal and US transactions. It only uses SK Won to purchase items from Samsung's South Korean production facilities, which are separate business entities. If you don't understand how holding USD until the company is essentially forced to convert to another currency to allow dealing with a foreign entity is different from refusing to hold Bitcoin and immediately converting to USD for internal savings, then there's no way we can continue to discuss the matter intelligently.
(3) As demonstrated in (1) and (2) the point is not in any way "absurd" provided one has a basic understanding of economic principles.
(4) It is absolutely not the "entire" purpose of a currency to merely serve as a universal barter medium. A substantial portion of the purpose of currency is also to maintain a relatively stable and predictable value to facilitate long-term financial planning. Without relative stability and predictable future value you cannot have savings in any true sense because even if you just stick a barter medium under your mattress you're still facing a meaningful risk that the medium will lose half its value overnight. That's just not a realistic worry with the USD, but it is with bitcoin.
ZV
Not every currency in history follows this, in fact, none of them have except for those backed by gold and, even then, those were actually the same also.
Dollars aren't stores of value, the value of which they represent his a store unless you keep them under the mattress forever or put them in a non-interest bearing account. Considering the vast majority of dollars aren't put under a mattress or in a non-interest account they aren't a store. The temporary "store" is nothing more than frictional movements.
Dollars aren't "naked debt instruments" issued by banks, it is issued by the Fed, for the Treasury, and it is backed by the government. There could be no debt outstanding and the dollar would still have value. As far as the interest goes, you don't need to print more dollars to cover interest.
You are really a nutball.
It's a quote from the Matrix.
However,
You really don't even get it, do you? Look up QE3. Read about it. Educate yourself.
Every month the fed CREATES 40 billion dollars out of thin air, and LENDS it to banks by buying up some mortgages. Do you understand that a mortgage is a form of debt? Do you understand that in order for the 40 billion to ever be paid off, the debt needs to be paid in full? Now realize that this has been going on for awhile. And in addition to buying debt, the US government has it's own debt itself, in the form of the deficit. Add up all the money in circulation, and subtract the total debt, and you come up with a negative number. The whole system is unsustainable, the debt will never be paid, eventually it's going to collapse on itself.
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