tagej: while you and I hold that opinion on what people should do, to force it in any way is completely self-defeating.
bart
bart
apoppin
Lifer
What may of you are forgetting is that there were (are) options if drafted.
One option was conscious objection. Many Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses and other people whose conscience would not let them serve in the armed forces refused the draft. Some were exempted on the basis of conscience, others went to prison rather than be put in a position to take other human life.
One option was conscious objection. Many Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses and other people whose conscience would not let them serve in the armed forces refused the draft. Some were exempted on the basis of conscience, others went to prison rather than be put in a position to take other human life.
The fact remains that those that answered the call to serve in Viet Nam, however unpleasant, are an integral part of the Victory and total dominance our US Military now enjoys.
Those that elected not to serve, weather for reasons of "conscience" or cowardice or laziness...some who may be forgiven...have been carried by men of Honor...
Those that elected not to serve, weather for reasons of "conscience" or cowardice or laziness...some who may be forgiven...have been carried by men of Honor...
<< But those who stayed at home and fought our own corrupt government were just as honorable. >>
I agree, those that fought forces of evil in prayer, are Honorable.
However, rioting in the streets and commiserating with the enemy, are acts of misguided and silly youth.
Vietnam?
The actions of politicos, notwithstanding, and despite reports to the contrary...it was the greatest military Victory in the history of the United States of America and for the Men that fought there.
Welcome home, soldier, we owe you our lives...
The actions of politicos, notwithstanding, and despite reports to the contrary...it was the greatest military Victory in the history of the United States of America and for the Men that fought there.
Welcome home, soldier, we owe you our lives...
If you refused, you would be known as a coward but on the other hand, the war had no meaning to the average American. If I simply had to serve, I would have gone in as someone other than a nurse or a soldier.
<< In other word bitch, you defame those who gave their lives by saying that what they were doing was to further your own hypocritical cause. You are sickening. >>
I honor those who gave their lives both on the battle field, and here at home, in unyielding vocal and spiritual support.
I also give Honor to the brave men who took the lives of the enemy, as authorized by the Law...and returned...
After all...ultimately..that is how wars are won, in the physical realm.
MrPAL: You don't seem to have any arguements. Just the same basic phrase re-worded in several posts.
bart
bart
lowtech
Thanks bud for the heads up.You are what we fought and died for. Thank God you made it.
A bunch of those contributing to this thread have done my heart well.It is obvious there are many interpratations of the events that transpired in the period of 1963 to 1972,and my contribution is this:
Thanks for remembering.
You are all right.
(There is no emoticon for this feeling)
Thanks bud for the heads up.You are what we fought and died for. Thank God you made it.
A bunch of those contributing to this thread have done my heart well.It is obvious there are many interpratations of the events that transpired in the period of 1963 to 1972,and my contribution is this:
Thanks for remembering.
You are all right.
(There is no emoticon for this feeling)
apoppin
Lifer
<< If you refused you would be known as a coward. >>
People who refuse to fight in the army for reasons of conscience, may be called many names and suffer punnishment for not going along with the "popular" choice. But they are not cowards to stand up for what they truely believe in.
That's why the law allows for conscientious objection. However, it is not an automatic deferment and the burden of proof falls on the objector. Prison time is generally the result of refusing to go for this reason (although there were exceptions during wartime).
When I said the Pledge at high school assemblies I meant it. This world is a very complex place and there was a time not too long ago when most pimple-faced 17 or 18 year olds would never have thought to challenge something they had been asked to do by their country.
In many ways I miss those days.
I doubt the government has ever been completely worthy of our trust, but it is OUR government and it is not up to each of us to defy its authority.
I joined the USN and was a volunteer to go to VietNam. Some of my friends were there, some of my family had already been. As it turns out, I was only there for a very few months and really made little to no contribution to the war effort. In hindsight (always easy to look back and question), I'm very glad my involvement was no more than it was and very glad the USN saw fit to turn me down for river-boats (PBRs).
Were any of us that went wrong for doing so? NO!! Is it wrong to ask such a question from your positions of comfort and safety? Maybe not, but it certainly shows a lack of any appreciation for those that fought and died.
The men that went to VietNam to fight for their country were no different than those that went during the big WWs, Korea, or Desert Storm. They came home to a different USA though, one that to this day shows little respect for those that were there.
Maybe our government was in error in having us there, but those of us that went at our government's call were certainly not wrong to do so.
In many ways I miss those days.
I doubt the government has ever been completely worthy of our trust, but it is OUR government and it is not up to each of us to defy its authority.
I joined the USN and was a volunteer to go to VietNam. Some of my friends were there, some of my family had already been. As it turns out, I was only there for a very few months and really made little to no contribution to the war effort. In hindsight (always easy to look back and question), I'm very glad my involvement was no more than it was and very glad the USN saw fit to turn me down for river-boats (PBRs).
Were any of us that went wrong for doing so? NO!! Is it wrong to ask such a question from your positions of comfort and safety? Maybe not, but it certainly shows a lack of any appreciation for those that fought and died.
The men that went to VietNam to fight for their country were no different than those that went during the big WWs, Korea, or Desert Storm. They came home to a different USA though, one that to this day shows little respect for those that were there.
Maybe our government was in error in having us there, but those of us that went at our government's call were certainly not wrong to do so.
On behalf of all the millions of innocent dead, would that in every war, all those on both sides who oppose it could stay home, and all those on both sides who favor it would die in it.
What group of legislators can make a law that can know a man's conscience?
What group of legislators can make a law that can know a man's conscience?
I was with the last group of draftees inducted in 1972(I enlisted). I enlisted because I was raised with theDuty Country Honor thing! I made it as far as outprocessing to Command Flight Detachment, Saigon in April 1973 when they decided to quit sending fresh troops in. I can remember being dissapointed at the time but time as also brought a little wisdom.
I was proud to serve and felt it was my duty. But would I let one of my children enlist today under similar circumstances? F&%k No I wouldn't! But my parents let me! Those that are in my age group can remember a different climate than we have now. It seems to me and I don't want this to sound like any sweeping statement, that the difference then was we felt a commitment to things larger than our own personal interests. Honor meant something to me when I was growing up. I was raised that way. The climate was that way. And when Red Dawn says that it took more courage to evade the draft, I have to agree because it wasn't the law or the time that scared someone then, it was the fact that they would be considered traitors for life within this society!
Today, and very possibly in no small part from the lessons learned in Vietnam, we don't blindly follow those things which our Government, Families and Friends think are the right thing to do. We have an overwhelming ability now to decide for ourselves what we want to do. Geeez, you can even divorce your parents now when your underage! Have we progressed? I have my opinion and I respect everyone to have theirs. Thats another topic somewhere down the line.
Vietnam Right Or Wrong? I don' think there is an answer for all of us, but for those of us affected by those turbulent years, there is an answer. And its our own answer!
The one thing I do want to add is that although I hold no grudge against those who choose to evade the draft, I do hold a strong grudge against those who choose to sleep with the enemy during the fight! They will rot in hell!
Nuf Said
Glenn
I was proud to serve and felt it was my duty. But would I let one of my children enlist today under similar circumstances? F&%k No I wouldn't! But my parents let me! Those that are in my age group can remember a different climate than we have now. It seems to me and I don't want this to sound like any sweeping statement, that the difference then was we felt a commitment to things larger than our own personal interests. Honor meant something to me when I was growing up. I was raised that way. The climate was that way. And when Red Dawn says that it took more courage to evade the draft, I have to agree because it wasn't the law or the time that scared someone then, it was the fact that they would be considered traitors for life within this society!
Today, and very possibly in no small part from the lessons learned in Vietnam, we don't blindly follow those things which our Government, Families and Friends think are the right thing to do. We have an overwhelming ability now to decide for ourselves what we want to do. Geeez, you can even divorce your parents now when your underage! Have we progressed? I have my opinion and I respect everyone to have theirs. Thats another topic somewhere down the line.
Vietnam Right Or Wrong? I don' think there is an answer for all of us, but for those of us affected by those turbulent years, there is an answer. And its our own answer!
The one thing I do want to add is that although I hold no grudge against those who choose to evade the draft, I do hold a strong grudge against those who choose to sleep with the enemy during the fight! They will rot in hell!
Nuf Said
Glenn
<< I doubt the government has ever been completely worthy of our trust, but it is OUR government and it is not up to each of us to defy its authority >>
"I disagree. If you have the courage and are willing to face the consequences then who are we to say thaey haven't the right."
Maybe so, but then one would have to look at that on a case by case basis, would they not?
And the authority I refer to is defined by the powers given the government in our Constitution. Should our government continue toward exceeding those powers, it would then be not only our right but our duty to defy and STOP that trend.
"I disagree. If you have the courage and are willing to face the consequences then who are we to say thaey haven't the right."
Maybe so, but then one would have to look at that on a case by case basis, would they not?
And the authority I refer to is defined by the powers given the government in our Constitution. Should our government continue toward exceeding those powers, it would then be not only our right but our duty to defy and STOP that trend.
apoppin
Lifer
It was illegal not to sign up for selective service at age 18. Once you signed up, it was legal to ask for a deferrment or ask to be excused on the basis of conscience.
EDIT: Most of the conscientious objecters were religiously motivated; a few were not affiliated with any religious group.
Some of the conscientious objectors were offered military service as non-combatants; others chose prison rather than support the war in any manner.
EDIT: Most of the conscientious objecters were religiously motivated; a few were not affiliated with any religious group.
Some of the conscientious objectors were offered military service as non-combatants; others chose prison rather than support the war in any manner.
<<It's so easy for you to spout that rhetoric when you've never ever faced being put in that situation yourself. Unless you were (this goes for you too Paltroll) then STFU, your opinion is one of total ignorance. >>
Red, BITE ME. My grandfather died serving in WWII, and my father served. I was not around during the 'nam period (and not in this country anyway) so I was never 'called upon'. If I was called to fight for my country I would do it in a heartbeat --- absolutely no doubt about it, NONE. Regardless of my personal feelings about the war, I would see it as my duty to my country. Period.
Red, BITE ME. My grandfather died serving in WWII, and my father served. I was not around during the 'nam period (and not in this country anyway) so I was never 'called upon'. If I was called to fight for my country I would do it in a heartbeat --- absolutely no doubt about it, NONE. Regardless of my personal feelings about the war, I would see it as my duty to my country. Period.
apoppin, I don't think you could get conscious objector for anything but religious, and only certain religions, reasons.
Tagej, mindless devotion to duty is just that, mindless. For da Fatherland ve commit des Jews to da oven.
Tagej, mindless devotion to duty is just that, mindless. For da Fatherland ve commit des Jews to da oven.
apoppin
Lifer
Moonbeam, actually, there were some conscientious objectors who were not affiliated with any organized religion. As I pointed out, this was the rare exception.
EDIT: tajeg, it's really easy to talk now. Just from my personal experience I have noticed the loudest big-mouth "patriots" have never served in the armed forces. I am making no particular comment about you - just noting my personal experience.
EDIT: tajeg, it's really easy to talk now. Just from my personal experience I have noticed the loudest big-mouth "patriots" have never served in the armed forces. I am making no particular comment about you - just noting my personal experience.
Are you saying there were few who objected for non r reasons, or few who were allowed to object. I thought you weren't legally allowed to object for non religious reasons. I thought you had to be a Witness or Quaker, etc. That's why I raised the opjection as to who the gov thinks it is to decide who has an acceptable conscience.
apoppin
Lifer
I believe so, Moonbeam. That's why it was called consciencious objection.
However, very few even of those religious who claimed on this basis were deferred. Many Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses and Buddhists went to prison if they refused to serve in the military at all.
I'll try to do a search to know for sure.
However, very few even of those religious who claimed on this basis were deferred. Many Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses and Buddhists went to prison if they refused to serve in the military at all.
I'll try to do a search to know for sure.
apoppin
Lifer
Found it here. Look under "Classifications - 5."
<<5. Conscientious Objectors opposed to all military service (Class 1-O)
In order to qualify as a conscientious objector opposed to all military training and service:
? A registrant must establish to the satisfaction of the board that his request for exemption from combatant and noncombatant military training and service in the Armed Forces is based upon his moral, ethical or religious beliefs, or a combination of such beliefs, which play a significant role in his life; that he is sincere in his claimed beliefs, and that his objection to participation in war is not confined to a particular war.>>
[Bold print mine]
So not just "religious" beliefs. I vaguely remember some atheists applying for this classification(and it made the news).
EDIT: I finally learned how to spell "conscientious".
<<5. Conscientious Objectors opposed to all military service (Class 1-O)
In order to qualify as a conscientious objector opposed to all military training and service:
? A registrant must establish to the satisfaction of the board that his request for exemption from combatant and noncombatant military training and service in the Armed Forces is based upon his moral, ethical or religious beliefs, or a combination of such beliefs, which play a significant role in his life; that he is sincere in his claimed beliefs, and that his objection to participation in war is not confined to a particular war.>>
[Bold print mine]
So not just "religious" beliefs. I vaguely remember some atheists applying for this classification(and it made the news).
EDIT: I finally learned how to spell "conscientious".
If I was called to fight for my country I would do it in a heartbeat --- absolutely no doubt about it, NONE. Regardless of my personal feelings about the war, I would see it as my duty to my country. Period.
tagej: listen to me closely here. I do not mean this to insult you, only to show you the shocking implications of what you said.
YOU burned the jews in ovens
If you have ONE true 'duty' as an American, that is to seek freedom
bart
tagej: listen to me closely here. I do not mean this to insult you, only to show you the shocking implications of what you said.
YOU burned the jews in ovens
If you have ONE true 'duty' as an American, that is to seek freedom
bart
apoppin
Lifer
Very well said, Red Dawn!
Those were some strange times that divided our nation. Hopefully we have learned from them.
Those were some strange times that divided our nation. Hopefully we have learned from them.
Yeah i have to admit that most of my knowledge of the war and that peiod is from history books and documentaries. In fact, i recently saw a documentary on how music changed and was created during the ANTI-WAR movement during the 60's, 70's.
From what i saw, man those were turbulent times.
Anywaz, nice post Red Dawn...
From what i saw, man those were turbulent times.
Anywaz, nice post Red Dawn...
War in the Physical realm is a strife filled and very messy affair, and is never the first choice of a loving and sweet God.
In order to maintain the Plan, as it is Written, there are times when the Enemy and his dupes, give God no choice.
When War is entered, it must be to Win, and with all the force and vigor a Nation can muster. Extreme Honor and respect must be given to the Men at the front, they will decide the fate of the "conscientious objectors" as well as the sweet mothers and grandmothers who are on their face before God, at home.
There are still the remnants of the "drop out and turn on" generation in our midst. Their conscience is still a seething caldron of regret as they spew retoric from the 60's and early 70's.
Many in this thread have masked real tragedy of what happened at home during this War by pointing at a corrupt federal Government. While I am certainly no fan of the Kennedy/Jonson administration (another study in itself of why Liberals cannot lead with clarity). They are simply the reflection of the mood of a majority in the Nation at election day.
A good deal of the animosity toward the War was not directed at the politicos, but at the returning soldiers. They were made to fell extreme embarrassment for going to do a horrible job that no Man "enjoys" but that Men of Honor must do.
To you that heaped shame on the innocent soldier that went into hell to protect our sweet mothers and grandmothers at home,
it is YOU that is the most hideous traitor in this affair, not the "government".
This I say to you...I forgive you and release you from your traitorous deeds ...if you go to God, he will release you as well and it will be expunged from the record. And it will be legal to say that it never happened, because it didn't. Now go forward and fight the real Enemy and not the brother at your side.
Again I say to you Soldier:
Vietnam?
The actions of politicos, notwithstanding, and despite reports to the contrary...it was the greatest military Victory in the history of the United States of America and for the Men that fought there.
You who served in Viet Nam are creditted for every Victory the forces of the United States have ever had.. or will have.
It is recorded in the Book that is Alive and that knows no End or Beginning.
If you have an ear to hear, then hear.
Welcome home good Soldier, we owe you our lives...
In order to maintain the Plan, as it is Written, there are times when the Enemy and his dupes, give God no choice.
When War is entered, it must be to Win, and with all the force and vigor a Nation can muster. Extreme Honor and respect must be given to the Men at the front, they will decide the fate of the "conscientious objectors" as well as the sweet mothers and grandmothers who are on their face before God, at home.
There are still the remnants of the "drop out and turn on" generation in our midst. Their conscience is still a seething caldron of regret as they spew retoric from the 60's and early 70's.
Many in this thread have masked real tragedy of what happened at home during this War by pointing at a corrupt federal Government. While I am certainly no fan of the Kennedy/Jonson administration (another study in itself of why Liberals cannot lead with clarity). They are simply the reflection of the mood of a majority in the Nation at election day.
A good deal of the animosity toward the War was not directed at the politicos, but at the returning soldiers. They were made to fell extreme embarrassment for going to do a horrible job that no Man "enjoys" but that Men of Honor must do.
To you that heaped shame on the innocent soldier that went into hell to protect our sweet mothers and grandmothers at home,
it is YOU that is the most hideous traitor in this affair, not the "government".
This I say to you...I forgive you and release you from your traitorous deeds ...if you go to God, he will release you as well and it will be expunged from the record. And it will be legal to say that it never happened, because it didn't. Now go forward and fight the real Enemy and not the brother at your side.
Again I say to you Soldier:
Vietnam?
The actions of politicos, notwithstanding, and despite reports to the contrary...it was the greatest military Victory in the history of the United States of America and for the Men that fought there.
You who served in Viet Nam are creditted for every Victory the forces of the United States have ever had.. or will have.
It is recorded in the Book that is Alive and that knows no End or Beginning.
If you have an ear to hear, then hear.
Welcome home good Soldier, we owe you our lives...
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