Vietnam: Wrong or Right <i>to serve</i>

[Buddha Bart]

I have several opionions on the various aspects of the Veitnam war, and consider myself to be far more informed than nearly anyone of my age (college)... but, there is one aspect of it that I have not formed any strong conclusions on.

For starters, I accept that it was a mistake.

My question is this. Should those drafted to join the conflict have resisted, refused, and or dodged?

Anyway, like I said I have no one strong conclusion. I can think of arguments for both sides, I'm curious to see if anyone can bring somthing new to me.

bart

 

[convex]

refused...they can't throw everyone in jail. I would never ever have chastised anyone for going and fighting though. If everyone would have just flat out refused, there wouldn't have been a problem, and it would have sent a strong message that the people still run the US

 

[The Wildcard]

Well it's a very complicated issue. First off, the purpose of the war is the most important thing to consider. I believe that everyone who male who lives in the US should be called upon to fight when the survival of the NATION is at stake.

BUt vietnam was different. The survival of the United States was not at stake. In that case, I don't think the US should have drafted people. They should have stayed with existing elisted men and when the casualites became to great, the United States should have pulled out.

 

[lowtech1]

I agreed with T_WC that they shouldn't have draft people to fight in another nation.

It is very hard to say which morality is right when it come to Vietnam...IHMO, either dodged or enlisted though drafting is both right, because either way the men lived up to their believe &amp; moral.

The Vietnam War administration should be held accountable for the pointless deaths of their braves &amp; jeopardized the morality of the nation.

But, I'm at the cross road when it is come to World War because I don't believe in killing others, but I'm ashamed to say that I'm not strong enough to turn the other cheek when harm come to my family...I'm prepare to kill and defend my family if it necessary.

 

[Hungy]

I am also currently in college right now and the funny thing is that i just studied this in my political science class. But the question was not whether or not the war should have been fought but rather if the people drafted should have resisted. The thing we have to consider in this is that not all people who were drafted were against going. A lot of young men and their families believed the politicians on &quot;THE Containment of Communism&quot; and the fear of the Domino Effect of the communist powers. Many were proud to go at first because the American public thought that there was a reason to go although i feel that the politician did mislead the public, and once the casualties amounted many peoples views start to change. Now for the people that did not want to go, they really do not have the choice. By becoming a citizen of the United States we are bound by the citizenship to fight for and defend our country. Many of you will argue that Vietnam war was not about the defense of the country but it was a defense of our countries intrests, and its allies. For those that don't know, a reason we got involved in vietnam was due to the French. We supported the French government and becuase of that reason we even got involved. In conclusion the right to refuse to go to war when drafted may be physically possible, but the fact is by doing this you are breaking the vows you take as a citizen and you can go to jail for this. Yes, someone did menion that they can not throw everyone in jail but given a choice and considering the time and the political situation of the time, the question becomes whould you rather go and fight for your country when called upon or go to jail because you refused to follow your duties of a citizen.

 

[Tominator]

It did not start out as a 'mistake.' I'll bet you are not told this however. It started out a a humanitarian effort. Not so different from Bosnia or any other place we currently are.

Those that were drafted either did their duty, and in that case were Heroes in my eyes unless like Gore they went for personal gain and he wasn't the only one, or were Chickensh!t draftdodgers that should have 'served' in prison with no pardon. Canada could keep the bastards!

 

[AndrewR]

They should have served along with the rest of the troops who upheld their duty to their country when called. There were many who heeded the call without question, and there were those who simply did not want to fight and ducked the call so others went in their place. Those who resisted had others die for them -- plain and simple. I would say that falls squarely into the &quot;reprehensible&quot; and &quot;repugnant&quot; categories, don't you?

The draft was the primary means of filling the military's ranks until the all-volunteer military was created after the Vietnam War. To say that the draft back then should only have been used when the nation was at risk is a statement ignorant of history. Now, that is certainly the case, but we did not have a volunteer military in the '60s.

 

[Buddha Bart]

Hungry: you bring up good points about how many were mis-informed, thats part of why I find it so difficult to fault them.

You also bring up a poitn that scares the sh!t out of me. That of the Government being able to force you into a war, not for defence, but for protection of interests. If so this is grossly un-constitutional and against everything america was founded for.

Tom: I think I picked up in another thread that you are a vet, so I can see why you might have the opinions you do, but I urge you to examine them more closely.
Just because you're told to do somthing by an authority, does not make it right. I know that sounds trite as hell, but it is an extremely important concept to keep in mind through life, and ESPECIALLY when making a decision that affects wether or not you will go off and start KILLING people.

anyone else?

bart

 

[AndrewR]

Buddha: Off the top of my head, the Spanish-American War, WWI, and Korea were all fought without any threat against the territorial integrity of the United States. Reasons for war stretch far beyond national boundaries, especially for a country such as the United States which prides itself on being a defender of freedom.

In effect, the reasons for resisting communism in SE Asia were the same as the reasons for resisting Hitler in Europe, though the case was far stronger in WWII given the countries threatened. However, the tide of communism was sweeping south from China and if left unchecked may have moved west into Thailand, south into Indonesia or crossed east into the Phillippines. That was the fear at any rate.

Even with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, there was no direct threat to the US from Nazi Germany, but the implications of the fall of our allies in Europe had serious consequences for the US' safety in the future. That was the consideration for Vietnam as well. It proved more or less unfounded, but who is to say that if the communists had triumphed easily in Vietnam, they would not have rolled farther and faster since they would have had the strength to do so? I really don't know -- just a thought.

 

[lowtech1]

For what ever the draft dodgers chooses not to go to war in Vietnam is their personal right &amp; moral, because you can't force a person to do something that is against their believes.

A saying that I learn form a very young age, &quot;If your friend tell you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?&quot;

 

[Chef0083]

This is truely a VERY complicated issue but for me it comes down to ONE thing. If you were called by your country you were OBLIGATED to go! If you didn't want to go LEAVE The country! Even if there was no direct threat to the mainland there was a threat to a democratic way of life and like it or not we will hold oursleves responsible in those kinds of situations. This is one of the few issues I feel this strongly about but I feel EVERY citizen has a duty to this country and should stand up when called upon.

D

 

[Rankor]

It was a mistake for the US to be there.

It was a mistake to implement the draft at the time.

My father was a Vet. At the onset, one thought it was for a good cause, stopping aggressive Communist oppression and their sphere of influence.

The soldiers that fought/died/survived were not at fault for being there.

I came across through an old photo album of his. Pics of himself, pics of his (now dead) buddies, pics of him and his M-60. He doesn't talk much about it.

His reply, &quot;...read the textbooks and newspapers. (They'll) tell you what the goverment wants you to know. You're lucky you weren't there. I hope you don't ever go through what me and my buddies had to go through...&quot;

He remembers it all too well. I remember months (even years) after coming State-side he would wake up screaming after some hellish nightmare.

To dodge the draft was not an option to him. It was unpatriotic and it was against the law. He loves this country (and still does); he just didn't approve of the Administration's policies at the time.

PS.

RD, have you been assimilated? :Q

 

[Chef0083]

<< To dodge the draft was not an option to him. It was unpatriotic and it was against the law. He loves this country (and still does); he just didn't approve of the Administration's policies at the time. >>



Rankor
I couldn't have put it better myelf. We shuoldn't have been there but for those who were called and went I have nothing but a tremendous amount of respect.

Thanks for sharing this with us!

D

 

[Tominator]

Red Dawn
Fair question. By 1972, the year I graduated High School, the war was almost over. Many of my Friends went and all came back although some had scars that took a long time to heal. Internal scars that is.

I was examined in HS by a recruiter and could not enlist because of asthma. I may have come to regret it, but I would have volunteered to go. Of that I'm sure.

Even then most of my classmates and myself were more awed by the idiot war protestors that claimed they wanted peace while using violence to get noticed than getting shot at.

Every one of my 12 uncles served in the militart. My Father ran away from home at 16 and joined the Army...with my Grandfather's blessings!

One Uncle fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. At his funeral it took almost 5 minutes to read off his medals. Ok, it seemed like 5 minutes. He was a Seargent.

They went in Service to their Country as it was the right thing to do. If they did not go someone would have gone in their place! We were brought up being taught that a REAL MAN did not let someone else do the 'dirty work.'

They always put God, Country and Family before their own personal wants and desires

Some of my fondness memories was digging through old seachests or trunks full of their small collections of money, medals, uniforms and pictures of faraway lands.

 

[Tominator]

I think we agree here. I'm not saying that Vietnam was an Honorable cause at the time we were faced with decisions regarding it. I personally would like to pull the fingernails out of any and all Politicians and Officers that let our efforts there degenerate to the embarassament that Vietnam became. I'd pull them out personally!

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Vietnam: Wrong or Right <i>to serve</i> >>

Answer...right.

If you enjoy the fruits of living as a fully franchised member of this Nation, you are bound to serve when called upon.

The actions of the leaders of this Nation in calling you, will be judged by others.

Vietnam?

Despite reports to the contrary...it was the greatest military Victory in the history of the United States of America and the Men that fought there...

 

[Doomsday]

One of the reasons the US joined the Viet Nam conflict was because they didn't want the NVA to spread communism. So LBJ decided to send soldiers there, because he didn't want all of south east Asian under the rule of communism. I belive that the people back then should have joined the military, it was their duty as a US citizen, to fight for when called upon. It is however unfortunate that most US VFWs do not recognize Viet Nam as a foriegn war? My question is why, since it was over seas and in another country. In my area, they just recently recognized the Korean War veterans. My father was in the Viet Nam War, and he was injured by a sniper, in the leg. He now has problems with it, and the VFW will not support him with his leg because they don't recognize Viet Nam as a foriegn war. The way the US fought in the conflict was a mistake in the begining. We went on the same bombing run, and patrols day after day. Also, many of the people didn't want to be there, and the support from home, with all the rebelling, was next to no moral support. The officers that led the men into battle were taken off every year, and replaced by someone with no experience. As a general rule, anyone defending their own country will fight harder then the people attacking. Unfortunately in Viet Nam most of the time our soldiers didn't know who the enemy was. Personally, I think Viet Nam was necessary to let the US know how not to fight a war. With this experience behind us, we learned to fight with real guerilla tactics, the same way the NVA fought, which will be useful in the present, and future forms of combat, which will be held in an Urban setting, however different from guerilla warfare, it is much closer then the tactics of WWII. My opinion may be biased because I like war.

 

[ChrichtonsGirl]

I really think that unless you were in that situation, in that specific time in history, you can't say whether those that decided to avoid the draft were &quot;right or wrong&quot;. My dad was in ROTC when war broke out, and actually had been given his orders to move out with his platoon; while waiting, he found out his wife was pregnant, and he was assigned stateside. I love my father dearly, and respect him even more. We've actually talked about his experiences in the military a lot lately, as I finally grew up enough to really understand what he did. He always told me that he respected other people's right to decide to avoid the draft, but given the way he was raised, he had always believed that when his country called him, it wasn't his choice to decide whether the battle he was to be sent to was right or wrong, but to fulfill the promise he made when he enlisted. He lost many of his friends in the war, and lost many more of them following the war. He keeps in touch with a few of them, but I think his feelings about them are bittersweet - he fully expected to go and was ordered not to, while they didn't necessarily want to and were drafted.

Obviously, his situation is much different from people who were summarily drafted - he volunteered for duty, and came from a very long line of military officers, so his background probably wasn't that of the typical Vietnam soldier, but from what I understand about that period of time, you just can't judge what was right and wrong. A lot of people felt the government was hiding things (and they were), and had every reason to feel like they were being pulled into a conflict they had no business butting into. I'm not saying the war itself wasn't a just cause, but the government just never communicated what was truly going on, and people's perception of what was happening was skewed. There was just an overall feeling of mistrust, that the government was deceiving people - and with the media whipping the anti-war movement into a storm, I think a lot of people who wouldn't have balked at serving in any other war at any other time just didn't see why they should sacrifice themselves for the sake of a country they knew little to nothing about.

Personally, I fall into the camp that says if you're drafted, you go, but I was raised in the post-Vietnam era and it's inappropriate for anyone who wasn't there to say what others should have done.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Our government wouldn't let then win that war and in doing so wasted thousands of brave American soldiers lives. >>



Military Victory is achieved by an Army over a long period of time.

The result of temporary casualties seen only in this realm...is nothing... compared to the rolling back of Principalities and Powers in the upper realms.

You who served in Viet Nam are creditted for every Victory the forces of the United States have ever had.. or will have.

It is recorded in the Book that is Alive and that knows no End or Beginning...

If you have an ear to hear, then hear...

edit...sp.

 

[DABANSHEE]

&quot;It did not start out as a 'mistake.' I'll bet you are not told this however. It started out a a humanitarian effort. Not so different from Bosnia or any other place we currently are.&quot;

Do you know what you are talking about Tom.

At the end of WWII Ho &amp; his 'National Liberation Front', after spending WWII fighting the Japs &amp; their Vichy French allies, was actually an ally of the US (they were under OSS control) &amp; was ready to lead Vietnam in a coalition goverment, allied to the US.

However because Truman wanted French support of NATO (DeGaul was playing silly buggers), he dicided to give Vietnam back to the French, even though the French in Vietnam were collaborators during the war. This pushed Ho into the Soviet camp &amp; created the Vietnam War in the 1st place.

Did you know that Eisenhauer admitted himself in his autobiogrophy that he stopped the 1956 reunification referendum in Vietnam, because he knew that Ho would win by a margin of 90%, even in areas he did not control. The fact is that the NLF had the support of the vast majority of the rural peasantry who formed 90% of Vietnam's population.

General Edward Lansdale (who led a CIA team sent to Vietnam in the 50's) admitted in an interveiw on TV, that if it wasn't for his team, that the South Vietnamese govt of Diem would never had existed in the first place. They (Landale &amp; his team) setup radio stations across Nth Vietnam, sending out propaganda that Ho was going to slaughter all the Catholics. Consequently the 10 to 15% Catholic population of Nth Vietnam fled down to Sth Vietnam, thereby doubling the Sth Vientnese Catholic population, which was used by Diem as his power base, to justify his existence &amp; the Sth Vietnamese govt was formed. Yet because of his autocratic methods (Diems Sth Vietnamese govt was even more of a police state than Ho's), within 2 years he had the support of less than 5% of the Sth Vietnamese. It got to the point, that just a couple of years later that the Kennady adminstration felt that if Diem wasnt taken out, all of Sth Vietnam would be lost. So the CIA got behind a coup &amp; Diem &amp; his brother were executed.

 

[Tominator]

DEBANSHEE I know exactly what I'm talking about.

When Marines were stationed in Vietnam they did not even carry firearms at the start. They carried medical supplies and school books. Set up clinics and schools. Of course the Communists openly slaughtered any teacher or medical personel that were trained by the Marines. They, Communists,just could not let the general populace become educated.

I do not dispute the behind the sceens goings on of our Government, but if you think any type of fair election could have been held you are an idiot!

I did not just read a couple of history books written by someone that was never near Vietnam or a Historian with an agenda, I've talked to the actual participants! Many have written about their experiences and I'm sure you will find few of those actual experiences related in any history book published. Why? Because Academia also has an agenda. And it is decidedly Communistic in nature.

 

[Buddha Bart]

A phrase that has been tossed around abusively here is &quot;duty&quot;

Our country is based on freedom. The armed services fight for it.
To say that one is in any way required to participate, is direct hypocracy.

you got caught up in your image of glory, and forgot the true reasons.

bart

 

[lowtech1]

I was born and raised in Vietnam during the war, and have read the North Vietnamese (VietMinh) &amp; the Vietnam Liberation Party (VLP) version of history/propaganda, also I have read the South Vietnamese, French, Czechoslovakia, and American CIA flavor of the 30 years conflict. And, the facts that DABANSHEE produced seemed to be a common acknowledgements in all history version that can be found on your home grown CIA-Vietnam conflict information web page.

Below is a fact that you will never find in any history book, because books that were written with these facts were confiscated &amp; burned, and anyone had any of these books in there procession were treated as treason against the country (life in jail or death). And if anyone spoke of the VLP party were sent to re-education/brainwash camp (hard labor).

Originally there were 2 parties that opposes the French &amp; American, but later the Ho Chi Minh party forces the VLP join them, and later Ho henchmen murdered the leaders of the VLP to unite the 2 groups. Not only I have read the VLP history book, I also witness the liberation of Saigon/HoChiMinh City where the VLP blue/red &amp; gold star flag was flown for 1 week, because the VLP was the first to liberate Saigon. But, 3 days later when Ho red &amp; gold star army made it to the city, they tore down &amp; forbid the use of the VLP flag and replace with their own red &amp; gold star flag.

And, It is correct that the American &amp; many other western countries were unarm in Vietnam to policing the North &amp; South conflict, but the North Vietnam terrorist &amp; brutality of Ngo Dinh Diem (Roman Catholic backing) forces a hard line approach of increasing arms &amp; army men that the American gov were too eager to adopt &amp; escalated to a full blow war.

 

[Double Trouble]

Bart: <<A phrase that has been tossed around abusively here is &quot;duty&quot; Our country is based on freedom. The armed services fight for it. To say that one is in any way required to participate, is direct hypocracy.>>

The vast majority of people in the world today are not 'free'. In this world, freedom comes at a price. If you are not willing to stand up and pay that price when called uppon, you are not deserving of that freedom that is the fruit of the blood and sweat of others.

 

[MrPALCO]

Agreed...