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Originally posted by: LunarRay
quote:
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Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Luney -
I remember the helpless feeling of 'Incoming !' - all the training, all the do this,
get down, cover up, stay down - every thing that you did - it really didn't matter.
Even if you did everything right, you were still at the mercy of the randomness
of each individual round - where you happened to be when it detonated, the pattern
of the fragments. Big ones would cut you up while little ones killed those further away,
and your fate was completely out of your hands, survival was just a random event.
Sometimes you survived only because the person laying prone next to you just
happened to be between the round and your position - if he hadn't dived there for
cover you wouldn't have made it. If the round fell 2 feet shorter, neither would have.
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Ain't that the truth...
Both are heroes! Both equally as brave and one dead. Tis why I argue that it is insanity to downplay the role of anyone who served there. They are heroes even if they ain't the folks who in a fit of survival while trying to stay alive and help others survive were recognized as being worthy of receiving a Star or Cross or More.. The grunt sloshing in a rice paddy, climbing a numbered hill for the third time, trying to discern the friendly from the foe in some hamlet, racing up and down a river or just sitting on the beach looking up at some ape like mountain and never getting 'hit' is any man's equal when it comes to being a hero... in the dam war.. I figure the same goes for the folks in all the wars or war like events we seem to frequent.
There are some, I guess, that can go into harms way without a bit of fear... they are Trained Military Folks.. but, back then (as you know) these kids, many of whom were fresh from the slums and hadn't a clue.. went to 3 months of Army how to march and look pretty and then to Vietnam... Trained to do little other than pull a trigger... led by a kid not much older who fresh from OCS was told he could lead men in battle. But they went. Some were told to go... and went while others ran or found creative ways to avoid going.
IMO... Mr. Bush is not among those who'd I call a hero... his character is called into question because he too COULD have gone and earned his medals and maybe even ran for President without that issue being raised.
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Thanks, CK, and thanks, LR, for your simple eloquence -- for the truth of what it was like -- death as a random, uncontrollable fate; the impotence and rage and sadness and mind and soul numbing fear that can fill you with, how fvcking weary that can make you; and how every single young kid who went was a hero, just simply so.
I only wish those who would belittle John Kerry's service could realize they belittle us all. I wish they would step out of their partisan skins for one brief moment and fully take in what you two wrote -- the quiet, unblinking, unmistakable truth of it -- and change their tack here.
Folks, please re-read the quotes above me here. Take them in.
There are no doubt plenty of valid reasons to oppose Kerry's candidacy, for those so inclined. His service in Vietnam is not one of them.
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Well I will not only belittle Kerry's service record I really belittle the lies he told and other BS he did after he came home, Some can try and make a hero out of him but like someone told Dan one time, I know some hero's and Kerry is no hero, I fought in more battles than Kerry have more wounds than Kerry, Even have more medals than Kerry, In other words I was there so I can say my peace, Now as far as Bush there is a lot of things I don't like about him but he did ask to go to nam and it takes some balls to fly a F102, More men were killed in that plane than any other I read, It would help if you looked up how many LT.'s were killed in the states flying F102's and how many LT's were killed in nam on a swift boat, I think if Bush was a coward he would have put in for nam and worked on F102's and 106's and not flew them, Just 2 cents from a Nam vet
Originally posted by: LunarRay
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Luney -
I remember the helpless feeling of 'Incoming !' - all the training, all the do this,
get down, cover up, stay down - every thing that you did - it really didn't matter.
Even if you did everything right, you were still at the mercy of the randomness
of each individual round - where you happened to be when it detonated, the pattern
of the fragments. Big ones would cut you up while little ones killed those further away,
and your fate was completely out of your hands, survival was just a random event.
Sometimes you survived only because the person laying prone next to you just
happened to be between the round and your position - if he hadn't dived there for
cover you wouldn't have made it. If the round fell 2 feet shorter, neither would have.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ain't that the truth...
Both are heroes! Both equally as brave and one dead. Tis why I argue that it is insanity to downplay the role of anyone who served there. They are heroes even if they ain't the folks who in a fit of survival while trying to stay alive and help others survive were recognized as being worthy of receiving a Star or Cross or More.. The grunt sloshing in a rice paddy, climbing a numbered hill for the third time, trying to discern the friendly from the foe in some hamlet, racing up and down a river or just sitting on the beach looking up at some ape like mountain and never getting 'hit' is any man's equal when it comes to being a hero... in the dam war.. I figure the same goes for the folks in all the wars or war like events we seem to frequent.
There are some, I guess, that can go into harms way without a bit of fear... they are Trained Military Folks.. but, back then (as you know) these kids, many of whom were fresh from the slums and hadn't a clue.. went to 3 months of Army how to march and look pretty and then to Vietnam... Trained to do little other than pull a trigger... led by a kid not much older who fresh from OCS was told he could lead men in battle. But they went. Some were told to go... and went while others ran or found creative ways to avoid going.
IMO... Mr. Bush is not among those who'd I call a hero... his character is called into question because he too COULD have gone and earned his medals and maybe even ran for President without that issue being raised.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, CK, and thanks, LR, for your simple eloquence -- for the truth of what it was like -- death as a random, uncontrollable fate; the impotence and rage and sadness and mind and soul numbing fear that can fill you with, how fvcking weary that can make you; and how every single young kid who went was a hero, just simply so.
I only wish those who would belittle John Kerry's service could realize they belittle us all. I wish they would step out of their partisan skins for one brief moment and fully take in what you two wrote -- the quiet, unblinking, unmistakable truth of it -- and change their tack here.
Folks, please re-read the quotes above me here. Take them in.
There are no doubt plenty of valid reasons to oppose Kerry's candidacy, for those so inclined. His service in Vietnam is not one of them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I will not only belittle Kerry's service record I really belittle the lies he told and other BS he did after he came home, Some can try and make a hero out of him but like someone told Dan one time, I know some hero's and Kerry is no hero, I fought in more battles than Kerry have more wounds than Kerry, Even have more medals than Kerry, In other words I was there so I can say my peace, Now as far as Bush there is a lot of things I don't like about him but he did ask to go to nam and it takes some balls to fly a F102, More men were killed in that plane than any other I read, It would help if you looked up how many LT.'s were killed in the states flying F102's and how many LT's were killed in nam on a swift boat, I think if Bush was a coward he would have put in for nam and worked on F102's and 106's and not flew them, Just 2 cents from a Nam vet
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