Video apparently showing american getting beheaded

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hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
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I don?t have a problem with anything you excerpted from the Geneva convention except:

?(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; ?

Outrages upon personal dignity? Self-esteem is not in my category of things that must be maintained when our people?s LIVES are on the line.

1) Initial reports of abuse mentioned no details. That doesn't make for good news. For all we knew, a couple of prisoners were roughed up a bit.

?That doesn?t make good news.?

Indeed!!! I couldn?t have summed it up any better myself. In other words, there wasn?t a chance for those in the media to turn it into a yellow dog to sell more ad space.

I'm glad that so many of you have a copy of the Geneva convention in your back pocket. I'm sure thats only when it suits your anti-Bush agenda.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: hokiezilla

I'm glad that so many of you have a copy of the Geneva convention in your back pocket. I'm sure thats only when it suits your anti-Bush agenda.

Actually I have fairly extensive professional training on it, at both the AF JAG School and in a 2-week Law of War Workshop at the Army JAG School, and have given at least a dozen briefings to GIs in garrison and deployed environments about the Law of War and the Code of Conduct.

As such, I know damned well what these GIs were trained, and it was, in short, that any torture or humiliation of PWs is a war crime and will lead to their prosecution. They are also trained that they have a duty to report it up the chain of command, and if that is unsuccessful, then to a JAG or the Inspector General.

Speaking only for myself, I have no anti-Bush agenda, and have tried to be supportive of him in the post-9/11 environment. IMO, though, Operation Iraqi Freedom is probably the most egregious foreign-policy error in American history, and the most poorly-planned major military operation.

Interestingly, the closest analogues that come to mind are the ill-fated Bay of Pigs (which was similar in philosophy but not in scope), and the war in Vietnam (which was arguably more justifiable from a foreign-policy standpoint), both of which were the products of the JFK administration (though Vietnam's escalation and ultimate scope were substantially Johnson's baby), so poor foreign-policy choices are not by any means exclusively a Republican phenomenon.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: hokiezilla
I don?t have a problem with anything you excerpted from the Geneva convention except:

?(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; ?

Outrages upon personal dignity? Self-esteem is not in my category of things that must be maintained when our people?s LIVES are on the line.

1) Initial reports of abuse mentioned no details. That doesn't make for good news. For all we knew, a couple of prisoners were roughed up a bit.

?That doesn?t make good news.?

Indeed!!! I couldn?t have summed it up any better myself. In other words, there wasn?t a chance for those in the media to turn it into a yellow dog to sell more ad space.

I'm glad that so many of you have a copy of the Geneva convention in your back pocket. I'm sure thats only when it suits your anti-Bush agenda.

Well, it's a good thing people like you aren't in charge.


Oh wait...people like you *are* in charge and now look at the mess we're in!!
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
181
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Originally posted by: katka
I must object when you disrespect Sen McCain. He WAS a POW for about 7years if I remember correctly. He taught me in college and is a very nice man. I objected that he thought that the war was necessary in the first place, especially after his ordeal. But then maybe he has friends who need financial opportunities as well. I could better accept a war from him, but with as much respect as I have for the guy there is NO and was NO justification for the INVASION of Iraq. PERIOD.

I saw the video and you can't alway believe what you see. He is obviously dead but IF that is the actual killing and those are ACTUALLY terrorist it can never be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Could have been special forces so that the video would counter the abuse scandal that was certainly know when all of the these people were "kidnapped". In addition, by killing this guy and making the "low quality" video people would become riled and unfocused on the prisoner abuse scandal. If you think that the government doesn't work that way think again. ex. President Kennedy, Senator Kennedy whom you still don't know the whole truth about.



Food for thought:

Did any of you every wonder why video tapes from the 1920 are crystal clear but yet Al Quaeda with its millions of dollars can't manage a clear shot or video? If you think the things presented to you are that simple you are mistaken.



OOOOOOkkkkkkaaaaaay then. :roll:

Maybe you should go back to chasing little green men with the rest of the black helicopter crowd. They're running around in sheets and living in caves. I doubt they made a point to differentiate between MiniDV and VHS when they obtained it.
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
181
0
0
Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Originally posted by: hokiezilla

I'm glad that so many of you have a copy of the Geneva convention in your back pocket. I'm sure thats only when it suits your anti-Bush agenda.


As such, I know damned well what these GIs were trained, and it was, in short, that any torture or humiliation of PWs is a war crime and will lead to their prosecution. They are also trained that they have a duty to report it up the chain of command, and if that is unsuccessful, then to a JAG or the Inspector General.


I'm not talking about how the GI's were trained. I'm talking about how so many of the people on this board who will feign disgust about prisoner abuse just to trot out their anti-Bush propaganda.

Like I said, outside of the reported incidents with the broomstick, instances of rape, murder, or REAL physical harm; I find the notion of insulting someone's self-esteem as being torture to be both ridiculous and over wrought with bureaucratic pencil-pushing zeal.

I'm not talking about starving, beating, or bringing physical harm. I also do not agree with humiliation for humiliation's sake either. But if it is utilized in the process of gaining valuable information then so be it.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: burnedout
In related news, Arab Media Play Down, Ignore Beheading

Did you read the actual article, or just the headline? On the whole it describes a sensitive handling of the whole matter by most media outlets, not some kind of whitewash.

As an Egyptian journalism professor notes in the article, Middle Eastern media outlets have a tough job in deciding how to report stories like this, out of fear they will just encourage more terrorism and lawlessness. I have no idea whether the article, an AP wire piece, is accurate, but if it is, I don't find it especially discouraging.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: hokiezilla

I'm not talking about how the GI's were trained. I'm talking about how so many of the people on this board who will feign disgust about prisoner abuse just to trot out their anti-Bush propaganda.

Like I said, outside of the reported incidents with the broomstick, instances of rape, murder, or REAL physical harm; I find the notion of insulting someone's self-esteem as being torture to be both ridiculous and over wrought with bureaucratic pencil-pushing zeal.

I'm not talking about starving, beating, or bringing physical harm. I also do not agree with humiliation for humiliation's sake either. But if it is utilized in the process of gaining valuable information then so be it.


At this point we have no idea whether this humiliation and torture garnered any information, much less "valuable information." Research has shown that intel produced through torture is frequently unreliable anyway.

You are entitled to your opinion, but IMO if we are going to violently overthrow another country's government (which is generally a Bad Thing To Do in my observation), based substantially on the notion that its leader is abusive (which he clearly was - he was an evil despot by any standard), we absolutely have to be lily-white in our own behavior. We have, through our actions, assumed the role of Morality Police, and a responsibility to act as paragons of decency and humanity. Otherwise we appear as nothing more than hypocrits and bullies. Winning the war was (relatively) easy, but we can't win the peace by cutting corners in the standards for our own behavior toward the enemy.

EDIT: Here are some comments by John McCain on this subject:

McCain asked three Army officials whether the Geneva Conventions, which dictate the terms for humane treatment of prisoners, were a burden on U.S. military activities. All three said the conventions were needed to protect U.S. soldiers in conflicts and to demonstrate the United States' moral integrity.

McCain said ``if somehow we convey the impression that we've got to do whatever is necessary and humanitarian do-gooders have no place in this arena - which I believe the International Red Cross has an important role to play - then I think we're setting ourselves up for some very serious consequences for American fighting men and women in conflicts in the future.''
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
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Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Originally posted by: burnedout
In related news, Arab Media Play Down, Ignore Beheading

Did you read the actual article, or just the headline? On the whole it describes a sensitive handling of the whole matter by most media outlets, not some kind of whitewash.

As an Egyptian journalism professor notes in the article, Middle Eastern media outlets have a tough job in deciding how to report stories like this, out of fear they will just encourage more terrorism and lawlessness. I have no idea whether the article, an AP wire piece, is accurate, but if it is, I don't find it especially discouraging.
Yes, did you?

Mustafa Bakri, editor of Al-Osboa weekly newspaper in Egypt, said Berg's death will only hurt efforts to expose American offenses against Iraqis.

"Such revenge is rejected," Bakri said of the execution. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."(note Abu Ghraib hearings in D.C. still continue today, if I'm not mistaken. Additionally, the U.S. media has lost little momentum in dealing with the abuse scandal.)

[...]

Egypt's leading daily, Al-Ahram, ignored the beheading Wednesday.

[...]

Newspapers in Syria, where the government controls the press tightly, did not report it at all.

[...]

Jordanian newspapers, state television and radio reported Berg's killing, but without commentary.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
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Don_Vito
I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to see a reasoned argument presented with intelligence and grace, with supporting evidence no less! It's such a marked contrast to the hyena-like antics usually displayed in here. *thumbs up*
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
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after seeing that beheading, I like my buddy's solution

No weapons on the streets..if so..shot. No one out after nightfall...if so..shot. Celebrate around a burned up vehicle..shot. drag dead bodies thru the streets..shot

how long is it before we really take off the gloves. we pussy-foot around to much.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
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Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Originally posted by: burnedout
In related news, Arab Media Play Down, Ignore Beheading

Did you read the actual article, or just the headline? On the whole it describes a sensitive handling of the whole matter by most media outlets, not some kind of whitewash.

You'll have to understand his nickname comes from an overdose of the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity.
Hey, idiotstick, FOR THE RECORD, I've listened to Rush Limbaugh ONE time in my life and never even heard of Hannity until people mentioned him on this board.

You may now resume your usual cocaine snorting, as well as your false perceptions, already in progress.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: burnedout
Yes, did you?

Way to take things out of context! It's easy to make a point when you only quote the snippets that are consistent with your perspective. I don't really even have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but you are clearly misrepresenting the article, and that bothers me intellectually.

Here is the entire article, with select portions highlighted:

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Arab media reacted cautiously Wednesday to the videotaped beheading of an American civilian by Islamic militants in Iraq (news - web sites), with some newspapers conspicuously playing it down or even ignoring it.

The biggest pan-Arab satellite television channels broadcast an edited version of the gruesome video, not showing the actual killing of Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb. The businessman was abducted in April.

In one of the most explicit displays, Kuwait's Al-Siyassah daily ran a photo of a masked militant holding up Berg's severed head.

The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it. The killing, attributed to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's group, appalled many Arabs.

Some opinion-makers condemned the killing.

"This shows how base and vile those who wear the robe of Islam have become," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist.

Some said it surpassed the American military's abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison, which has been the top story for the past 10 days in the Middle East.

"We were winning international sympathy because of what happened at Abu Ghraib, but they come and waste it all," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist, said of the Islamic militants responsible.


In the video, the masked militants said they were taking revenge on Berg because of the abuses at the Baghdad prison.

Mustafa Bakri, editor of Al-Osboa weekly newspaper in Egypt, said Berg's death will only hurt efforts to expose American offenses against Iraqis.

"Such revenge is rejected," Bakri said of the execution. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."

Bakri spoke as he took part in a Cairo demonstration by about 50 Egyptian journalists and lawyers against American human rights abuses in Iraq.

Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, the big two satellite networks, aired carefully edited versions of the video. In Al-Arabiya's edit, a militant is seen drawing a knife and jerking Berg's body to one side. The rest is not shown.

"The news story itself is strong enough," said Jihad Ballout, spokesman for Qatar-based Al-Jazeera. "To show the actual beheading is out of the realm of decency."

Lebanon's private Al Hayat-LBC station led its bulletins Wednesday with the video. Its news presenter said: "We apologize to our viewers for not showing the entire tape because of the ugliness of the scene."


Kuwait state television broadcast the news of the execution late Tuesday but not the video.

Iraqi newspapers reported nothing about the killing, although it may have broken to late for them.

Egypt's leading daily, Al-Ahram, ignored the beheading Wednesday. Two other major pro-government newspapers ran news agency reports on their inside pages, without photos.

An Al-Ahram editor, Ahmed Reda, said the news came too late Tuesday night for the paper to confirm the video's authenticity with the U.S. government.

Newspapers in Syria, where the government controls the press tightly, did not report it at all.

A professor of journalism at the American University in Cairo, Hussein Amin, said the handling of the story by Egypt's pro-government papers was political and appropriate.

"I think that the government does not want to show this on the front page as a main item because it shows a very poor ? poor is not the proper word; disgusting maybe is the better word ? example of revenge," Amin said. "There is also the threat that it could be happening to other Americans. If they put it on the front page, (it could be seen as) they are favoring this kind of action."


Jordanian newspapers, state television and radio reported Berg's killing, but without commentary.

Most Lebanese newspapers, such as the left-wing As-Safir, published the report and a photograph of Berg sitting in front of the militants. As-Safir ran the headline: "Al-Zarqawi slaughters an American to avenge Iraqi prisoners."


In many Arab newspapers, the beheading received less display than the news of America's imposing sanctions on Syria and the killing of six Israeli soldiers in Gaza City.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
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Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Originally posted by: burnedout
Yes, did you?

Way to take things out of context! It's easy to make a point when you only quote the snippets that are consistent with your perspective. I don't really even have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but you are clearly misrepresenting the article, and that bothers me intellectually.
I don't have "a dog in this fight" either. YOU asked about the headline. I provided supporting information as to perhaps WHY that particular headline was chosen.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Originally posted by: burnedout
Yes, did you?

Way to take things out of context! It's easy to make a point when you only quote the snippets that are consistent with your perspective. I don't really even have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but you are clearly misrepresenting the article, and that bothers me intellectually.

The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it.

That's a very key point that many of the neocons and non-thinking sheep, like burnedout, fail to comprehend. I mean, come on! Don't those Arab newspapers know they were supposed to wake at 3am, recall all of their papers, and reprint them with scathing remarks of the beheading??
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: conjur

That's a very key point that many of the neocons and non-thinking sheep, like burnedout, fail to comprehend. I mean, come on! Don't those Arab newspapers know they were supposed to wake at 3am, recall all of their papers, and reprint them with scathing remarks of the beheading??
Ah yes, another sorry-assed attempt at the dialectic by our resident urbanized drug addict.

Where was my commentary with the link that reinforces your idiotic assertion?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: conjur

That's a very key point that many of the neocons and non-thinking sheep, like burnedout, fail to comprehend. I mean, come on! Don't those Arab newspapers know they were supposed to wake at 3am, recall all of their papers, and reprint them with scathing remarks of the beheading??
Ah yes, another sorry-assed attempt at the dialectic by our resident urbanized drug addict.

Where was my commentary with the link that reinforces your idiotic assertion?

Thanks for proving my point. Resorting to such banal comments is the sign of a feeble mind.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: conjur

That's a very key point that many of the neocons and non-thinking sheep, like burnedout, fail to comprehend. I mean, come on! Don't those Arab newspapers know they were supposed to wake at 3am, recall all of their papers, and reprint them with scathing remarks of the beheading??
Ah yes, another sorry-assed attempt at the dialectic by our resident urbanized drug addict.

Where was my commentary with the link that reinforces your idiotic assertion?

Thanks for proving my point. Resorting to such banal comments is the sign of a feeble mind.
Well, aren't we suddenly making another lame attempt at sophistry. Must I also mention your pathetic jump onto a disconnected bandwagon in the spirit of malicious animosity? No, no, of course not.
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
181
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0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: hokiezilla
I don?t have a problem with anything you excerpted from the Geneva convention except:

?(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; ?

Outrages upon personal dignity? Self-esteem is not in my category of things that must be maintained when our people?s LIVES are on the line.

1) Initial reports of abuse mentioned no details. That doesn't make for good news. For all we knew, a couple of prisoners were roughed up a bit.

?That doesn?t make good news.?

Indeed!!! I couldn?t have summed it up any better myself. In other words, there wasn?t a chance for those in the media to turn it into a yellow dog to sell more ad space.

I'm glad that so many of you have a copy of the Geneva convention in your back pocket. I'm sure thats only when it suits your anti-Bush agenda.

Well, it's a good thing people like you aren't in charge.


Oh wait...people like you *are* in charge and now look at the mess we're in!!



Haha, that?s a laugh. I could say the same thing about you. Let me offer a few examples of messes that "people like you" failed to act on:

The 1993 WTC bombing- six killed, 1000 injured

The 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia- killed five U.S. military personnel

The 1996 Khobar Towers bombing- killed 19, and injured 200 U.S. military personnel

The 1996 offer by the Sudanese to hand over bin Laden refused by the Clinton administration because of ?no legal means of trying him?.

The 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa- killed 224, injured 5,000

The 2000 bombing of the USS Cole- killed 17, and injured 39 U.S. sailors


That's roughly seven years of playing Johnny Diplomat and seeking legal remedies. What did it get us? More of the same.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I doubt those affected by the collapse of the WTC towers would've minded very much if Clinton had just invented some reason to detain him and any other known thug we might've rounded up.

OTOH, if Clinton HAD detained bin Laden, we?d have pie-in-the-sky?ers like you Conjur trumpeting his release because we would?ve been holding him ?illegally?.

The problem is, people like you, Bill Clinton, and John Kerry want to play cops-and-robbers with individuals who are utterly barbaric.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Don_Vito
Originally posted by: burnedout
Yes, did you?

Way to take things out of context! It's easy to make a point when you only quote the snippets that are consistent with your perspective. I don't really even have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but you are clearly misrepresenting the article, and that bothers me intellectually.

The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it.

That's a very key point that many of the neocons and non-thinking sheep, like burnedout, fail to comprehend. I mean, come on! Don't those Arab newspapers know they were supposed to wake at 3am, recall all of their papers, and reprint them with scathing remarks of the beheading??

Can you shut the fvck up with the name calling.. you are trashing on the wrong dude.. burnedout is not one you need to pick a fight with.. GROW UP And realize who your real enemies are.. he is not one of them.. You are doing a better job of making an enemy than you are of listening... geezus..
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
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"Such revenge is rejected," Bakri said of the execution. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."

As sick as that sounds it is VERY true..

Arabs have the right to be outraged over the abuses at that Prison.. and the US WILL - intelligently - use the beheading to distract people from focusing on

-- Breaking chemical lights and pouring phosphoric liquid on detainees;

-- Beating detainees with a broom handle and chair;

-- Threatening male detainees with rape;

-- Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps with a broomstick."

-- A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee; THIS IS CALLED RAPE

-- Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

-- Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

-- Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
 

katka

Senior member
Jun 19, 2001
708
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thats right, it must a creation of the mousad right?

holocaust denial...9/11 denial... its not hard to deny anything it seems.

i guess in your twisted little world you have to love nazi's to love germans.

Kennedy Murders X 2

I addressed you because I think that you are confused.

These acts apparently happened, but the issues is WHO was really behind the events. NEWS FLASH the Government tells lies and keeps secrets. They showed the UN fuzzy pictures of Sadams WMD's. Remember. The reality is that they don't exist. This example supports my position and if your were honest with yourself you would admit it. 9/11 we know if terrorist were on that plane that they got in the US and on the plane thorough the Immigrations Office. Which means that the Government let them in. Also, hunting people down would be unnecessary if Immigrations had performed its job properly and the people responsible were kill while performing the deed. The focus should be on improving the process. The WTC is gone, there is nothing that can be done but for Immigrations to do its job properly and prevent it from happening again.

Also, watch the video as best you can. The guys heart had to be beating like a drum, but when his carotid artery was cut the blood didn't squirt out did it? It should have.
 

hokiezilla

Member
Mar 9, 2003
181
0
0
Originally posted by: Don_Vito

At this point we have no idea whether this humiliation and torture garnered any information, much less "valuable information." Research has shown that intel produced through torture is frequently unreliable anyway.

Exactly, we don't know. Yet, so many on this board are making proclamations of this and that without having all of the facts upon which to base an opinion of the wide-sweeping variety offered by many here.

I thought I deliniated my opinion adequately. I do not consider humiliation for the sake of gaining valuable intel to be "torture". But that's just my opinion.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: conjur
That's a very key point that many of the neocons and non-thinking sheep, like burnedout, fail to comprehend. I mean, come on! Don't those Arab newspapers know they were supposed to wake at 3am, recall all of their papers, and reprint them with scathing remarks of the beheading??

Can you shut the fvck up with the name calling.. you are trashing on the wrong dude.. burnedout is not one you need to pick a fight with.. GROW UP And realize who your real enemies are.. he is not one of them.. You are doing a better job of making an enemy than you are of listening... geezus..

You fail to understand the simple mind of burnedout and his jealousy of my living in a "big city". He's been personally attacking me for days...much more severely than I have done above. You have a bone to pick, direct it toward him to "grow up".