Very scary time for young men in America

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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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A girl on my ukulele group

Not a statement you hear everyday

So all anyone needs is an allegation brought against them and that can kick start a formal hearing? No evidence is needed to substantiate the claim made just the allegation that it happened is enough? Damn it is a scary time in America if that's the case.

"Very scary time for young men in America", the OP claims.

This page suggests that at absolutely worst, the false rape allegation stat is 10%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Which means for every one of these people who gets falsely accused, there's at least nine (most likely women) who actually did get raped, and that's setting aside the fact that not all rapes get reported. And yet it is "a very scary time for men in America".

Jesus. You guys need to pull your heads out of your asses.

You two are making the mistake of thinking these are similar to criminal cases. They are not so any references or comparisons to that system will throw off your expectations. Title IX has very few guidelines on how to actually handles complaints so Universities are left to their own devices to figure it out. There is the added pressure that the Federal Government will intervene if they think you are not in compliance with their fuzzy rules. For Title IX there are no juries, the accused is not entitled to hear all the evidence against them, the accused is not entitled to be present for any discussions of of the punishment or appeal, the accused can be immediately barred from classes, dorms, and campus activities before the accused is even talked to let alone an official hearing is held to review the legitimacy of the claim. They may not be allowed a lawyer. If they are allowed a lawyer the lawyer may not be allowed to participate in the process. And the investigators can choose to disregard the supposed victim's own statements. So while some Universities are covering things up you have others that go the other direction:

The Title IX investigation began, Steigerwalt said, after a neighbor witnessed Boermeester and Katz roughhousing. The neighbor told his roommate, who told a coach in USC's athletic department that Boermeester was abusing Katz. The coach then reported the incident to the Title IX office.

Someone told someone else who told a third person that something bad might have happened. The University investigates. The girlfriend completely and 100% denies the claims and fully supports her boyfriend - going so far as to release a public two page statement in support of him. The University expels him and bars him from approaching within 100 yards of campus. Meanwhile the police find no evidence of any crime so he is never charged.

Or this case

A former football player is suing the university and the the U.S. Department of Education. Grant Neal said in his lawsuit that the university suspended him despite the woman involved explicitly telling the director of athletic training “I’m fine and I wasn’t raped.” Neal was suspended for as long as the woman remained at the university.

It's gotten to the point where you can face serious repercussions for looking like someone else who lives thousands of miles away:

I recently assisted a young man who was subjected by administrators at his small liberal arts university in Oregon to a month-long investigation into all his campus relationships, seeking information about his possible sexual misconduct in them (an immense invasion of his and his friends’ privacy), and who was ordered to stay away from a fellow student (cutting him off from his housing, his campus job, and educational opportunity) — all because he reminded her of the man who had raped her months before and thousands of miles away. He was found to be completely innocent of any sexual misconduct and was informed of the basis of the complaint against him only by accident and off-hand. But the stay-away order remained in place, and was so broadly drawn up that he was at constant risk of violating it and coming under discipline for that.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't take allegations seriously just that there is a serious problem with how Title IX is written and how many Universities are handling accusations.

https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/02/trading-the-megaphone-for-the-gavel-in-title-ix-enforcement-2/
https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...rtable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/
http://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/l...-unfairly-girlfriend-says-20170730-story.html
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Title-IX-Due-Process/239282
 
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highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,936
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So you've never assumed anything was true, ever? How about the story in the OP?
For me, when I assume or jump to conclusions, I end up needing to apologize to someone. But I am assuming that that astronomy/science is correct and the earth is round. I've never been in outer space though.

Scary for young men? Meh, possibly but I would be more concerned if I had a daughter. Also, proven false allegations should have the same jail time as the crime, any crime....Duke lacrosse/Nifong for example.

I do think the metoo will affect women in the workplace. Male managers/supervisors/corporate types will be very leery of working alone with a female. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's a greater possibility now.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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As a 40 year old guy sort of of on the cusp of some very large culture changes between generations I've got to think this is going to get worse before it gets better. Basic communication between two humans is being continuously broken down. We keep devolving our communication. We used to write letters. Then we got phones. Then we got email. Then text messages took over. Now we are down to memes and a string of emojis to explain our intent. As young adults continue to bury themselves in electronic bursts of transactional chat we move further away from actual human to human interaction.

This sets up for a very dangerous situation when it comes to something as emotional, complicated and physical as sex/sexual advances. If a girl is flirting or sexting over a phone it's a very different situation once she is in person with a male. The guy often lacks the maturity or compassion to read queues of distress and we just end up in a very ugly situation of what expectations were.

We are moving away from teenagers quite literally "feeling" these things out in those awkward makeout sessions and learning boundaries that way. Now it's a situation of misunderstood expectations and the lack of physical and emotional maturity to understand how things should feel.

I dunno...I'm just sort of scared for where we are going. We are retreating emotionally to electronic devices that blunt our feelings to other humans and taking away from the real world practice of face to face interactions with other people.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
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As a 40 year old guy sort of of on the cusp of some very large culture changes between changes I've got to think this is going to get worse before it gets better. Basic communication between two humans is being continuously broken down. We keep devolving our communication. We used to write letters. Then we got phones. Then we got email. Then text messages took over. Now we are down to memes and a string of emojis to explain our intent. As young adults continue to bury themselves in electronic bursts of transactional chat we move further away from actual human to human interaction.

This sets up for a very dangerous situation when it comes to something as emotional, complicated and physical as sex/sexual advances. If a girl is flirting or sexting over a phone it's a very different situation once she is in person with a male. The guy often lacks the maturity or compassion to read queues of distress and we just end up in a very ugly situation of what expectations were.

We are moving away from teenagers quite literally "feeling" these things out in those awkward makeout sessions and learning boundaries that way. Now it's a situation of misunderstood expectations and the lack of physical and emotional maturity to understand how things should feel.

I dunno...I'm just sort of scared for where we are going. We are retreating emotionally to electronic devices that blunt our feelings to other humans and taking away from the real world practice of face to face interactions with other people.
Perfectly said. I am in the same boat as you. 40 years old and witnessed the devolution of communication. Even among people our age.
 

JoeBleed

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2000
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Might need a lawyer in the room during as well.

Yea, that contract is missing a notary or witness signature line. Suppose you have to step outside and yell, "WITNESSSSSS MMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and hope someone responds that doesn't creep you out.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,568
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A girl on my ukulele group just recorded this a couple days ago, it's amazing:

That was an awesome song! But this below captures my take on the shaky nature of this "transitional" phase.

Women have had the shite end of the stick for far too long, but criminalizing everything is a clumsy overreaction. :(

Hopefully, the "pendulum" will eventually come to rest in some fair and sane place in the middle.


As a 40 year old guy sort of of on the cusp of some very large culture changes between changes I've got to think this is going to get worse before it gets better. Basic communication between two humans is being continuously broken down. We keep devolving our communication. We used to write letters. Then we got phones. Then we got email. Then text messages took over. Now we are down to memes and a string of emojis to explain our intent. As young adults continue to bury themselves in electronic bursts of transactional chat we move further away from actual human to human interaction.

This sets up for a very dangerous situation when it comes to something as emotional, complicated and physical as sex/sexual advances. If a girl is flirting or sexting over a phone it's a very different situation once she is in person with a male. The guy often lacks the maturity or compassion to read queues of distress and we just end up in a very ugly situation of what expectations were.

We are moving away from teenagers quite literally "feeling" these things out in those awkward makeout sessions and learning boundaries that way. Now it's a situation of misunderstood expectations and the lack of physical and emotional maturity to understand how things should feel.

I dunno...I'm just sort of scared for where we are going. We are retreating emotionally to electronic devices that blunt our feelings to other humans and taking away from the real world practice of face to face interactions with other people.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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Jesus, it's diversions all the way down with you isn't it. Do you want to actually engage with my original point?
He's not wrong. Assuming guilt means you have to prove innocence, not guilt. Which is the opposite of how our system is supposed to work. Lying is not exactly low on the human nature scale, thus why it needs to be innocent until proven guilty. If you just assume everyone is telling the truth, then anyone anywhere could accuse/frame anyone of anything. There are plenty of corrupt people out there, and people in power that would use this to their advantage. That leads to a very full jail system of innocent people. And to further the point - what is your determination on who you believe is telling the truth? My guess is personal beliefs or more likely stereotypes. Meaning you would be more inclined to believe people of certain cultures, ethnicity, etc...with more in common with you, or maybe even something as simple as a bad looking mug shot would make you think that person is guilty. It is a rabbit hole.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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As a 40 year old guy sort of of on the cusp of some very large culture changes between generations I've got to think this is going to get worse before it gets better. Basic communication between two humans is being continuously broken down. We keep devolving our communication. We used to write letters. Then we got phones. Then we got email. Then text messages took over. Now we are down to memes and a string of emojis to explain our intent. As young adults continue to bury themselves in electronic bursts of transactional chat we move further away from actual human to human interaction.

This sets up for a very dangerous situation when it comes to something as emotional, complicated and physical as sex/sexual advances. If a girl is flirting or sexting over a phone it's a very different situation once she is in person with a male. The guy often lacks the maturity or compassion to read queues of distress and we just end up in a very ugly situation of what expectations were.

We are moving away from teenagers quite literally "feeling" these things out in those awkward makeout sessions and learning boundaries that way. Now it's a situation of misunderstood expectations and the lack of physical and emotional maturity to understand how things should feel.

I dunno...I'm just sort of scared for where we are going. We are retreating emotionally to electronic devices that blunt our feelings to other humans and taking away from the real world practice of face to face interactions with other people.

Except one big hole here is that the stuff coming out now, is WAY WAY WAY before everything you say is wrong with the world today. It isn't technology, it is humans. Followed by sensational biased looking for money media. If you haven't noticed everything is an epidemic these days, even though many of the numbers (ratios) are no different than they were years ago. We have become a world of fear mongering where everything can kill you or in this case every man wants to rape you and will so don't go outside.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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A girl on my ukulele group just recorded this a couple days ago, it's amazing:

I sent this awesome performance to some friends. The wife of one replied that she'd already seen it on AssFaceBook! :eek:
 
Mar 11, 2004
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My Nephew has several hidden cameras in his room and he records the whole thing and keeps archives, they all connect to a Synology box running Surveillance Station. He is smart because the cameras records audio and he makes sure the conversation shows consent and during the sex act.

My recommendation for anyone is to do the same thing he does, be smart don't be stupid and show it to people or post it, keep it private and keep indefinite archives as well. The reason for that is what if 40 years later that person claims rape? With the video and audio you have your get out of jail card.

Does he inform them of the cameras and get consent for being recorded? Because if not, pretty sure that's not legal and wouldn't be admissable in court. Plus, it'd actually make him look like a fucking creep (see Dennis from Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia) and likely work against him in any case where he tried to use that to clear himself. Most women I know would probably decide they'd rather go home than continue if he informed them of cameras/recordings that she would have no control over.

Oh, and uh, if any of that "evidence" ends up in the public domain, he'd be opening himself up to revenge porn laws. That's if the evidence doesn't end up being used to blackmail him after his network gets compromised.

In other words, have fun with all that. You may have just incriminated your nephew!
 
Mar 11, 2004
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If this stuff keep up, there are going to be a lot of lonely women out there living with 20 cats.

I think they'd take that over the rampant sexual assault. That you're viewing it that way and not the inverse is telling and frankly laughable. Pretty sure guys are gonna have more problems with lack of vaginas to stick their dicks in than the inverse.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
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Except one big hole here is that the stuff coming out now, is WAY WAY WAY before everything you say is wrong with the world today. It isn't technology, it is humans. Followed by sensational biased looking for money media. If you haven't noticed everything is an epidemic these days, even though many of the numbers (ratios) are no different than they were years ago. We have become a world of fear mongering where everything can kill you or in this case every man wants to rape you and will so don't go outside.

No, the big hole is the ones you people keep trying to shove stuff you don't like hearing in. Humans are the same as they ever were. That you don't like hearing that guys have gotten away with a ridiculous amount of bullshit, well who exactly is the one living in fear here? JHumeC, you're in a thread with a bunch of guys worrying that they'll be unfairly accused of rape. Not because, you know, there's statistically a good chance that several of them have assaulted women, but that well women be crazy yo and they'll just make shit up cause they decide they wish they didn't have sex with you. Or they find out you have money, or keep inserting various fears that men trot out like crazy.

That you think everything is fine because the ratios are likely the same, and not going "you know, sexual assault is a problem, how about we work on reducing those ratios?", well again who is the one pushing unfounded fear?

But, you should tell women exactly all of that. Seriously, tell women that they're overreacting and shouldn't be so concerned with sexual assault. You clearly have not actually listened to women much if you'd take such a dismissive attitude. And definitely try to dismiss the trauma of a such an experience, so you dismiss mental health issues at the same time. That will definitely go over well.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,239
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Except one big hole here is that the stuff coming out now, is WAY WAY WAY before everything you say is wrong with the world today. It isn't technology, it is humans. Followed by sensational biased looking for money media. If you haven't noticed everything is an epidemic these days, even though many of the numbers (ratios) are no different than they were years ago. We have become a world of fear mongering where everything can kill you or in this case every man wants to rape you and will so don't go outside.
Even before the MeToo movement, I was already aware of an alarming number of female acquaintances that have been raped in the past... that fear seems more well-founded than this "very scary time".
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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No, the big hole is the ones you people keep trying to shove stuff you don't like hearing in. Humans are the same as they ever were. That you don't like hearing that guys have gotten away with a ridiculous amount of bullshit, well who exactly is the one living in fear here? JHumeC, you're in a thread with a bunch of guys worrying that they'll be unfairly accused of rape. Not because, you know, there's statistically a good chance that several of them have assaulted women, but that well women be crazy yo and they'll just make shit up cause they decide they wish they didn't have sex with you. Or they find out you have money, or keep inserting various fears that men trot out like crazy.

That you think everything is fine because the ratios are likely the same, and not going "you know, sexual assault is a problem, how about we work on reducing those ratios?", well again who is the one pushing unfounded fear?

But, you should tell women exactly all of that. Seriously, tell women that they're overreacting and shouldn't be so concerned with sexual assault. You clearly have not actually listened to women much if you'd take such a dismissive attitude. And definitely try to dismiss the trauma of a such an experience, so you dismiss mental health issues at the same time. That will definitely go over well.

Your ranting is misdirected. I was saying that his thought that this will get worse because of technology is flawed. It was always there because the problem isn't technology. If nothing else, technology helped it come out into the open. In general however, ratios of 'bad things happening' in the world is no more than it has ever been, we are just more exposed to it. This sudden influx of "i was assaulted" claims is not due to recent advances in technology or changes in communications (in the sense that they just happened now because people are disassociated). They happened because humans are flawed and they have always happened.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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False claims are a bit overblown. Somewhere between 2-8% of reported cases are false. When it happens the consequences are great but the likelihood is not high.

Even before the MeToo movement, I was already aware of an alarming number of female acquaintances that have been raped in the past... that fear seems more well-founded than this "very scary time".

Title IX cases do not require that the victim report the occurrence. All they require is that someone heard something from someone else who heard from their room mate that the roommate saw something that might be suspicious. And if they question the supposed victim and the victim adamantly says they are fine the University can still go ahead with their investigation and discount the testimony if they so choose. In the meantime the accused is typically barred from campus.

This is very different from false rape claims
 

lytalbayre2

Member
Nov 3, 2009
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81
As an almost 40 year old white male with a moderate perspective, living and working in very liberal bay area california, this is an interesting discussion to me.

I'm happily married with kids, and don't have any fear of being accused of abuse towards women. But because of my moderate view point, I do constantly worry that I can't express my political view point without someone being offended.

I also think that I rationalize my "fear" by blaming others for not understanding and accepting my perspective. But, honestly, I think it's also a combination of fear of change and a fear of being challenged.

Women's and minorities' positions in society are changing and hopefully equalizing. That means my position is also changing. Change is complicated and on such a large scale is chaotic.

I do believe media sensationalizes everything, and social media filters/dilutes/clouds everything, and I do believe many people in our society have lost the will to think critically and logically about so many issues and are allowing themselves to be directed by the above.

Honestly, I have a lot of fear that our country is experiencing an irreversible downward spiral and I fear for my children's future.

I don't know that I have much value to add other than we should try to see people as people first and not as a political party or race or color or sex. We shouldn't generalize, but understand that our peers in society have as much right to love, happiness and freedom as we do. That they are someone's family and have a rich an unique life of their own.

And, I also think we should be realistic in our understanding of how culture and gender affect our behaviors. There is a lot of culture clash and gender based behavior that is being demonized and people act like it means we are not all equal, but there has to be some latitude to let people follow their natures and be people. A male is going to be aggressive and pursue women. He should do so as considerately as possible, but if you deny him the ability to pursue women, which is part of his human nature, you are fighting against natural law in a losing battle. This doesn't mean he's a bad guy or misogynistic, it might just mean he's a normal hormonal guy. And the same goes for women and their gender roles in the whole flirtatious dance of courtship. Just cause she flirts, or dresses nice, or leads you on doesn't mean shes a slut or is giving up her right to make decisions about her body or to fair and considerate treatment....

It just gets so convoluted and the spectrum of normal behavior is so broad it's hard and unfair to try to simplify and categorize it.

Man.... So depressing. I'm actually glad I'm almost 40 with a wife and kids and a house and an ok career. I guess I'll just keep my head down and keeping on going....

Good luck to all of us!
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,239
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Title IX cases do not require that the victim report the occurrence. All they require is that someone heard something from someone else who heard from their room mate that the roommate saw something that might be suspicious. And if they question the supposed victim and the victim adamantly says they are fine the University can still go ahead with their investigation and discount the testimony if they so choose. In the meantime the accused is typically barred from campus.

This is very different from false rape claims
I'm guessing that number is still lower than the incident of rape, if you're trying to refute my post about the fear of being raped being more well-founded than the fear of a false Title IX investigation.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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I'm guessing that number is still lower than the incident of rape, if you're trying to refute my post about the fear of being raped being more well-founded than the fear of a false Title IX investigation.

I think the issue is that the only piece of that us males can really personalize is the threat of a false accusation and the difficulties that remain after such thing. We've seen it for years in TV and movies. Is it unfounded? Most likely, but again, it is the only thing most of us can personalize. We can't fathom the threat of being raped/assaulted in normal every day life....maybe if you were in prison for years perhaps, but otherwise. Now obviously this would mostly apply to people who actually respect women, which well..many men simply do not, but that does not mean all men should be assumed guilty, and all women should be assumed telling the truth. Women are just as capable of being manipulative, emotional, and lying as a man and if social media has shown us anything, some are very much into getting attention by any means necessary (as are the men).
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,604
11,304
136
You two are making the mistake of thinking these are similar to criminal cases. They are not so any references or comparisons to that system will throw off your expectations. Title IX has very few guidelines on how to actually handles complaints so Universities are left to their own devices to figure it out. There is the added pressure that the Federal Government will intervene if they think you are not in compliance with their fuzzy rules. For Title IX there are no juries, the accused is not entitled to hear all the evidence against them, the accused is not entitled to be present for any discussions of of the punishment or appeal, the accused can be immediately barred from classes, dorms, and campus activities before the accused is even talked to let alone an official hearing is held to review the legitimacy of the claim. They may not be allowed a lawyer. If they are allowed a lawyer the lawyer may not be allowed to participate in the process. And the investigators can choose to disregard the supposed victim's own statements. So while some Universities are covering things up you have others that go the other direction:

Someone told someone else who told a third person that something bad might have happened. The University investigates. The girlfriend completely and 100% denies the claims and fully supports her boyfriend - going so far as to release a public two page statement in support of him. The University expels him and bars him from approaching within 100 yards of campus. Meanwhile the police find no evidence of any crime so he is never charged.

Or this case

It's gotten to the point where you can face serious repercussions for looking like someone else who lives thousands of miles away:

This isn't to say that we shouldn't take allegations seriously just that there is a serious problem with how Title IX is written and how many Universities are handling accusations.

https://harvardlawreview.org/2015/02/trading-the-megaphone-for-the-gavel-in-title-ix-enforcement-2/
https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...rtable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/
http://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/l...-unfairly-girlfriend-says-20170730-story.html
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Title-IX-Due-Process/239282

So what you're saying is that Title IX is stupid and should be reviewed. Based on what you're saying I'm inclined to agree, without the whole pearl-clutching bit. Though my original point had nothing to do with what kind of case it was; whatever Jeebus's reasons were for attempting to conflate what I was saying to have some kind of legal context, were his own.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,604
11,304
136
He's not wrong. Assuming guilt means you have to prove innocence, not guilt. Which is the opposite of how our system is supposed to work. Lying is not exactly low on the human nature scale, thus why it needs to be innocent until proven guilty. If you just assume everyone is telling the truth, then anyone anywhere could accuse/frame anyone of anything. There are plenty of corrupt people out there, and people in power that would use this to their advantage. That leads to a very full jail system of innocent people. And to further the point - what is your determination on who you believe is telling the truth? My guess is personal beliefs or more likely stereotypes. Meaning you would be more inclined to believe people of certain cultures, ethnicity, etc...with more in common with you, or maybe even something as simple as a bad looking mug shot would make you think that person is guilty. It is a rabbit hole.

You're also incorrect because you're making the same mistake he did. My assumption is as a random person whose opinion makes jack shit difference to anything. As a juror my role would be entirely different because as a juror I would have a responsibility to the participants and my notion of ideal justice in a civilised country to come to as informed, logical and unemotional decision based on the available evidence as I can.