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Venezuela's president admits economy has failed...kinda

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UglyCasanova said:
No, they are capitalist countries with generous welfare paid for by taxes collected in a market based economy. That’s not socialism.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist
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This is common tactic by people on the left. They have now taken over traditional collectivist activities like infrastructure, the military, things a state is supposed to do and called it socialism. Even the healthcare in some EU countries is not socialist(state owns means of production). They have private health markets with some form of public payment. EU countries have a very robust private capitalist markets that pays for their social spending. Not socialist spending. afaik the UK is the only EU member to have total state control of the health care services market. They also have one of the worst outcomes for cancer in the entire EU. And in the mid 1990s people resorted to pulling out their own teeth due to horrible conditions\wait times in their dental markets.
 
Genx87 said:
This is common tactic by people on the left. They have now taken over traditional collectivist activities like infrastructure, the military, things a state is supposed to do and called it socialism. Even the healthcare in some EU countries is not socialist(state owns means of production). They have private health markets with some form of public payment. EU countries have a very robust private capitalist markets that pays for their social spending. Not socialist spending. afaik the UK is the only EU member to have total state control of the health care services market. They also have one of the worst outcomes for cancer in the entire EU. And in the mid 1990s people resorted to pulling out their own teeth due to horrible conditions\wait times in their dental markets.
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This is actually a game most commonly played by people on the right and whatever you want to claim a state is 'supposed to do' is entirely irrelevant as to what is socialism and what is not. They decry Democratic policies as 'socialism' when they are trying to make policies look bad and then when pointed to successful countries that have implemented policies FAR to the left of the things they claim are 'socialism' here they claim it's because they aren't socialist.

Again, socialism and capitalism are not an either/or. It is a sliding scale where the only question is HOW MUCH socialism you want, not if you want it at all as everyone wants some socialism.
 
What influence has US sanctions and policies along with efforts manipulating trade, economic cooperation and development between Venezuela and other nations had on Venezuela's current state of affairs?

We've been messing with Venezuela for a long time and doing tons of crap to keep them from adapting and integrating into global economy.
 
Ichinisan said:
Well, at some point it will be impossible for it to get any worse. They need a full reset.
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Yeah, but that point is essentially when Venezuela is a smoking crater rather than an actual country. Until it reaches that point it can get a lot worse and it's going to get a lot worse soon. Maduro now has his back to the wall and you can never underestimate what a desperate dictator might do to a country to hang onto power. He's going to fear his own military turning on him and might do something desperate. What happens if he hires China to run Venezuela's oil industry and invites them to bring in some military assets to "protect our oil infrastructure from capitalist saboteurs...." when he wants China's military to protect him from Venezuela's military? As big a shit show as that place is now will seem like Disneyland compared to what it could be. Some foreign army is going to be in there in 6 months either to "stabilize the situation" (code for "steal the oil") or "protect the legally elected government" (code for "steal the oil") or "protect the natural resources that belong to the Venezuelan people" (code for "steal the oil"), Whatever code they use, that place is likely to become a war zone when some foreign power goes in for ostensibly humanitarian reasons (code for "steal the oil") and somebody else goes in to stop them from stealing the oil so they steal it for themselves instead.
 
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Amused said:
Sigh, Venezuela took control of the means of production. They are an autocratic communist country. Not a European style socialist democracy.

Why is it neo-conservatives have problems telling the difference between European style socialism and autocratic communism???

I mean, I know the propaganda intentionally tries to conflate the two, but anyone with half a fucking brain can see the difference.

I guess the OP lacks that half Sigh...
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Really? You're worried that someone might misinterpret the the form of ignorance that brought on this disaster? Take a shot at neo-conservatives (whatever the hell that is) and call it good?
 
UglyCasanova said:
Well shit
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He also blames the outstanding followers of Trump in Miami, Florida. Of being terrorists and part of the far-right. Which is close enough to 100% to be considered truth, without citations to back it up.

Pretty sure the Miami connection will be tied up directly to the President somehow.

Venezuelans -> Colombia -> Florida -> Right-wing funding -> Attacks back in Venezuela.
Seems pretty clear cut.
The next day, Aug. 11 [2017], Trump alarmed friends and foes alike with talk of a "military option" to remove Maduro from power. The public remarks were initially dismissed in U.S. policy circles as the sort of martial bluster people have come to expect from the reality TV star turned commander in chief.
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If I can't get the Military to do it! Then, I'll have the far-right do it!
But shortly afterward, he raised the issue with Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos, according to the U.S. official. Two high-ranking Colombian officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to avoid antagonizing Trump confirmed the report.

Then in September, on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly, Trump discussed it again, this time at greater length, in a private dinner with leaders from four Latin American allies that included Santos, the same three people said and Politico reported in February.
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The hilarious duplicity of hard core right wingers is even too much for this old conservative to take.

Apparently, when the US government pays for healthcare, it is socialism. (Obamacare was regarded as socialist)

But when nordic countries do it, it is not. Because they are capitalist countries.

Mmmmkay...

What.
The
Actual
Fuck

You guys are seriously fucked in the head.
 
Amused said:
The hilarious duplicity of hard core right wingers is even too much for this old conservative to take.

Apparently, when the US government pays for healthcare, it is socialism. (Obamacare was regarded as socialist)

But when nordic countries do it, it is not. Because they are capitalist countries.

Mmmmkay...

What.
The
Actual
Fuck

You guys are seriously fucked in the head.
Click to expand...

Socialized healthcare isn't quite the same as an entire economy.
 
People should take note of what John Bolton said Sunday.....
Asked if the American government was involved in the assassination attempt, naturally Bolton said NO.
REALLY?
Does ANYONE believe that, or trust John Bolton?
Or would anyone not believe that Donald Trump was fully engaged in this attempt?
THIS is how John Bolton thinks. How he operates. He is old school.
Bolton believes in assignations and overthrow and American involvement within foreign affairs through the CIA, the military, and all means available.

One day soon and not that far in the future, evidence will emerge proving crystal clear that the Trump administration lead by the ideology of John Bolton did in fact orchestrate this assassination attempt, which failed.
And while Americans can be fooled, and believe their government can do no wrong, the Venezuelan people are not nearly as sheltered as are Americans.
Americans know nothing, absolutely nothing when it comes to foreign affairs and foreign governments. How they function.
We are totally sheltered and clueless. And our leaders make sure of that.

Americans believe that all Muslims are terrorist and that all immigrants are murderers and rapist.
Why?
Because our government tells us so.
And Donald Trump tells us so.
So, Americans believes that.

I hope the Trump administration is happy.
Ran by the likes of John Bolton who we should never trust, Donald Trump and John Bolton have chimed in an entire new generation of terrorist dead set on attacking Americans. Revenge aimed inside our boarders, and outside. Wherever Americans can be targeted.
This is the 1960's and 1970's happening all over again.
And John Bolton has just made sure we will repeat the dark side of our history, once again.

Now, because of what Donald Trump and Bolton have done, our children will face a new batch of terrorist threats during their entire lifetime. Just as our generation has endured from crap pulled during Nixon, Carter, and senior Bush administrations.
Our people can be fooled and kept in the dark, but people over in other countries know exactly what is going on. They experience the ideology of John Bolton first hand.
They know how Trump and Bolton operate better than most Americans.
There is a reason why they hate us so. Because we insist on screwing with their governments.
Our leaders never learn and those targeted never forget.
And now, John Bolton is right there once again leading America back to the future.
Because... that is how he thinks.
And Donald Trump never thinks at all.
 
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When Chavez took over and instituted his "socialism" he was the darling of the white liberal left and as long as the oil money flowed due to the historic high prices he could do no wrong,

as soon as the oil prices dropped and the "socialist" policies he enacted began to crumble all around him our white liberal leftists threw him under the bus claiming he wasn't a true socialist like those lily white European countries they like to hold as an example of true socialism.

https://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/hugo_chavezs_economic_miracle/

Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle
The Venezuelan leader was often marginalized as a radical. But his brand of socialism achieved real economic gains
 
1prophet said:
When Chavez took over and instituted his "socialism" he was the darling of the white liberal left and as long as the oil money flowed due to the historic high prices he could do no wrong,

as soon as the oil prices dropped and the "socialist" policies he enacted began to crumble all around him our white liberal leftists threw him under the bus claiming he wasn't a true socialist like those lily white European countries they like to hold as an example of true socialism.

https://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/hugo_chavezs_economic_miracle/

Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle
The Venezuelan leader was often marginalized as a radical. But his brand of socialism achieved real economic gains
Click to expand...

I'll admit Chavez is the darling of the white liberal left as soon as you admit Nazis are the darling of the white conservative right.
 
Shitty how things have gone. Perfectly shows problems in how they managed things (basically converting to oil as your de facto good, when you can't control the price of it), and the problems of running sham governments.

GagHalfrunt said:
Yeah, but that point is essentially when Venezuela is a smoking crater rather than an actual country. Until it reaches that point it can get a lot worse and it's going to get a lot worse soon. Maduro now has his back to the wall and you can never underestimate what a desperate dictator might do to a country to hang onto power. He's going to fear his own military turning on him and might do something desperate. What happens if he hires China to run Venezuela's oil industry and invites them to bring in some military assets to "protect our oil infrastructure from capitalist saboteurs...." when he wants China's military to protect him from Venezuela's military? As big a shit show as that place is now will seem like Disneyland compared to what it could be. Some foreign army is going to be in there in 6 months either to "stabilize the situation" (code for "steal the oil") or "protect the legally elected government" (code for "steal the oil") or "protect the natural resources that belong to the Venezuelan people" (code for "steal the oil"), Whatever code they use, that place is likely to become a war zone when some foreign power goes in for ostensibly humanitarian reasons (code for "steal the oil") and somebody else goes in to stop them from stealing the oil so they steal it for themselves instead.
Click to expand...

What happens is that China probably starts paying and/or importing goods for the Venezuelan people in return for that, which will greatly ease their current problems. Pretty much the only country that would go running in willy nilly like that is the US under its current administration.

I'm truly baffled why you think Venezuela turns into a war zone via some outside country. I think the US is the only one that has even suggested doing something like that (and it was just some offhand buffoon idiocy from Turmp). And China has been pretty keen on not totally fucking over the countries they get involved with, as they see that both can benefit from it and it makes China look a hell of a lot better internationally.

Ichinisan said:
Socialized healthcare isn't quite the same as an entire economy.
Click to expand...

Captina Obvious, there you are! Can you please explain this to conservatives, or rather call them out when they choose to be willfully stupid in order to push their idiotic agenda?

1prophet said:
When Chavez took over and instituted his "socialism" he was the darling of the white liberal left and as long as the oil money flowed due to the historic high prices he could do no wrong,

as soon as the oil prices dropped and the "socialist" policies he enacted began to crumble all around him our white liberal leftists threw him under the bus claiming he wasn't a true socialist like those lily white European countries they like to hold as an example of true socialism.

https://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/hugo_chavezs_economic_miracle/

Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle
The Venezuelan leader was often marginalized as a radical. But his brand of socialism achieved real economic gains
Click to expand...

So...you didn't actually read the article? It openly points out flaws in how Chavez went about it and that Chavez himself was not a terribly great guy. Also, have to love how you cite this article from 5 fucking years ago, which surprisingly didn't have the things that have happened since that kinda alter how things have gone (like how the US opened up its fossil fuel production, in part to deliberately screw with other countries economically, Russia, Iran, and Venezuela being 3 key ones). Point is, that's hardly lionizing him, and it even actually specifically says that its a question that needs to be talked about with regards to governance. You can get screwed both directions (privatize or nationalized). The article ends pointing out exactly the stupidity in your post. That just mentioning Chavez is meant to nullify any and all discussion of socialism. That he's trotted out as a boogeyman by conservatives to end all discussion. Nevermind the lesson should be "don't let a fucking dictator run your country, regardless of what -ism you allege to follow", as that always leads to the worst fucking situation.
 
Hey!! Just thought I'd say with a lot of despair and sadness that this was all foreseeable. To bad it took hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans starving to death, dying because of lack of medicine, dying due to political violence enacted by neo-marxists Chavistas murderers, etc for reality to sink in and the truth to be revealed.

Oh and lets not forget the OP's cited article that describes the economic collapse of Venezuela that anyone a few years ago who had a clear and objectively grounded understanding of history, economics and human nature could of spotted from a mile away.

Venezuela - Escape from a Failed State | DW Documentary



P.S. This madness is now being repeated in Nicaragua where Maduro's buddy, the Sandinista human trash named Daniel Ortega is following his lead and killing the people there trying to resist his drive toward a leftist tyranny and its eventual murderous cult of personality. The result will be the same if not worse sadly before the lesson is learned by those who care to learn it. 🙁
 
So is it safe to assume that Russian influence on Venezuela has been a well-tread topic of conversation in this thread?

Oh, it's not?

Hmm.
 
fskimospy said:
We are running into a definitions problem again. Capitalism and socialism are not an either/or proposition. It is a sliding scale.

I have seen no evidence that AOC wants a planned economy so I’m suspect she would see Venezuela and say ‘so what?’. Her policies are more in line with highly successful Nordic economies that you appear to venerate.
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You're trying to talk to people who would rather put their dick in a blender than have an intellectually honest conversation about this topic.
 
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