Venezuela, more deadly than Iraq, debates why

[thebomb]

That is funny. I have many right winged friends and they typically look at the Soviet Union, NK, and other despot regimes where true socialism is practiced as their examples. It seems only the socialist\lefty types in this country point towards Sweden as an example of socialism. I suspect it is an attempt to redefine the ideology so it can be sold to the avg person.

The Soviet Union and NK were never socialist. Socialism entails the public ownership of the means of production...this did not happen in the SU or NK.

 

[Genx87]

The Soviet Union and NK were never socialist. Socialism entails the public ownership of the means of production...this did not happen in the SU or NK.

Oh really? Then who owned the means of production in these two countries? They have a private owned economy we didnt or dont know about?

 

[EagleKeeper]

The Soviet Union and NK were never socialist. Socialism entails the public ownership of the means of production...this did not happen in the SU or NK.

Are you saying that public does not mean the same as government controlled/owned/dictated

 

[piasabird]

So what is the Sweden Tax Rate I wander?

 

[thebomb]

Oh really? Then who owned the means of production in these two countries? They have a private owned economy we didnt or dont know about?

The Communist Party.

Are you saying that public does not mean the same as government controlled/owned/dictated

No. By public I mean the people working in the factories and shops that produce goods. This is what socialism is all about. If I work at a factory, I own it and have a say in how things are run. Decisions are made collectively through worker's councils. None of this exists/existed in the SU or NK.

 

[BurnItDwn]

"socialism" = the economic system, NOT the political system.
The promlems in Venezuela are not caused by a flawed political system, they are caused by an evil political system.

 

[Genx87]

The Communist Party.



No. By public I mean the people working in the factories and shops that produce goods. This is what socialism is all about. If I work at a factory, I own it and have a say in how things are run. Decisions are made collectively through worker's councils. None of this exists/existed in the SU or NK.

Because the socialist\communist paradise is an unattainable dream. What you see\saw in NK and SU is what socialism looks like in real life. A one party dictatorship where the govt(public) owns and runs production. While the workers really have little say in how it is run and what is produced.

What we see\saw in those two countries is socialism.

 

[Generator]

Looks like a Republican wet dream down there. A country where there really is a lawless mob in the streets that legitimizes the paranoia of some brown horde trying to invade a Republican's gates.

Socialism, capitalism...irrelevant. Four more years of Bush Republicanism will have this country on its knees debased into cannibalism like Venezuela.

 

[1prophet]

The question

What was once a decent country has gone bad in every way imaginable. Is it because of socialism or just bad government?

The answer is not socialism , communism, capitalism , etc. or bad government. The problem is Hugo Chávez and his relentless lust for absolute power under the guise of socialism.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/hugo_chavez/index.html?inline=nyt-per

Hugo Chávez is a Venezuelan soldier-turned-politician who harnessed soaring oil revenues and simmering class resentments to make himself the hub of anti-American sentiment in Latin America. As a colonel, Mr. Chávez led a failed coup in 1992 against the government, which had traditionally represented the interests of the country's moneyed elite. He was pardoned after two years in prison, and emerged as one of Venezuela's most popular figures.
In 1998, he won election as president and announced he would seek sweeping changes to benefit the poor. Instead he proceeded cautiously and succeeded in lowering chronically high inflation. His policies, including the firing of the management of the state-owned oil company that is the source of most of the government's wealth, angered members of the middle class, and in April 2002, he was briefly ousted in a failed coup.
Mr. Chávez blamed the administration of President George W. Bush for the incident, and his rhetoric became steadily stronger, especially after he survived a recall election in 2004. In a speech to the United Nations in September 2006, Mr. Chávez, speaking the day after Mr. Bush had addressed the General Assembly, declared that the room stank of sulphur because "the devil" had been there.

In 2006, Mr. Chávez handily won re-election and announced a more radical turn. He nationalized electrical companies, asserted government control over oil projects in the Orinoco forests and withdrew from the International Monetary Fund. He also cracked down on television stations that had been critical of him, and proposed a referendum on constitutional changes that would centralize power in the presidency and remove term limits for the post. That referendum was rejected by voters in December 2007. It was Mr. Chavez's first major electoral defeat in the nine years of his presidency.
In state and municipal elections in November 2008, Mr. Chávez's supporters suffered defeat in several important races, with the opposition retaining power in oil-rich Zulia, the country’s most populous state, and winning a crucial contest in Caracas, the capital. Despite the inroads made by the opposition, followers of Mr. Chávez still control the Supreme Court, the National Assembly, the federal bureaucracy and every state company.
Mr. Chávez signaled that he might move to handpick new regional authorities, effectively diminishing the power of opponents elected elsewhere by voters.
In January 2009, buffeted by falling oil prices that threatened to damage his efforts to establish a Socialist-inspired state, Mr. Chavez began quietly courting Western oil companies again. His olive branch to these oil companies came after he nationalized their oil fields in 2007. Their willingness to even consider investing in Venezuela reflected the scarcity of projects open to foreign companies in other top oil nations, particularly in the Middle East.
But the shift also showed how the global financial crisis is hampering Mr. Chávez’s ideological agenda and demanding his pragmatic side. At stake are no less than Venezuela’s economic stability and the sustainability of his rule.
In February 2009, Mr. Chávez handily won a referendum ending presidential term limits, allowing him to run for re-election indefinitely and injecting fresh vibrancy into his socialist-inspired revolution. The results pointed to his resilience after a decade in power, as well as to the fragmentation of his opposition. Mr. Chávez's term expires in 2013.
Mr. Chávez said in April 2010 that China had agreed to extend $20 billion in loans to Venezuela, pointing to deepening ties between the two countries as China seeks to secure oil supplies there. China's ties with Venezuela have grown increasingly warm in recent years, marked by rising Venezuelan oil exports to China, the Chinese launching of a satellite for Venezuela and the sale of Chinese military aircraft to Venezuela.
The loans could give Mr. Chávez a much-needed cash infusion. Some financial analysts said that Venezuela could soon face a cash crunch as it grapples with low oil revenues and a dearth of foreign investment.
Mr. Chávez has shown an adeptness at nimbly consolidating power as crisis swirls around him. Even as he struggles with public ire over electricity shortages and an economy in recession, he is using tactics like secret-police raids and expropriations of some of his most powerful supporters' businesses. Several magnates loyal to him have been jailed, and Mr. Chávez is relying on a dwindling number of military loyalists to carry out his orders.

 

[xj0hnx]

So what is the Sweden Tax Rate I wander?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Corporate 26.3%, Individual 28.89-59.09%, Payroll 31.42%

 

[Orignal Earl]

The US has a murder rate, three times as high as the Socialist Utopia of Canada
Is this because of Capitalism or just bad government?

 

[xj0hnx]

The US has a murder rate, three times as high as the Socialist Utopia of Canada
Is this because of Capitalism or just bad government?

Could be liberal social experiments, and the unending cycle of dependency they have created ...could be.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Could be liberal social experiments, and the unending cycle of dependency they have created ...could be.

Could be, but I'm pretty sure Canada is at least even with the US in liberal social experiments, and more likely way ahead.

 

[xj0hnx]

Could be, but I'm pretty sure Canada is at least even with the US in liberal social experiments, and more likely way ahead.

Well hell, than it must be those hateful conservatives, and all their greedy capitalism.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Well hell, than it must be those hateful conservatives, and all their greedy capitalism.

Or just could be the heat. Who knows?