Venezuela, more deadly than Iraq, debates why

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
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What was once a decent country has gone bad in every way imaginable. Is it because of socialism or just bad government?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/americas/23venez.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=venezuela&st=cse

Venezuela, More Deadly Than Iraq, Wonders Why
By SIMON ROMERO

CARACAS, Venezuela — Some here joke that they might be safer if they lived in Baghdad. The numbers bear them out.
In Iraq, a country with about the same population as Venezuela, there were 4,644 civilian deaths from violence in 2009, according to Iraq Body Count; in Venezuela that year, the number of murders climbed above 16,000.
Even Mexico’s infamous drug war has claimed fewer lives.
Venezuelans have absorbed such grim statistics for years. Those with means have hidden their homes behind walls and hired foreign security experts to advise them on how to avoid kidnappings and killings. And rich and poor alike have resigned themselves to living with a murder rate that the opposition says remains low on the list of the government’s priorities.
Then a front-page photograph in a leading independent newspaper — and the government’s reaction — shocked the nation, and rekindled public debate over violent crime.
The photo in the paper, El Nacional, is unquestionably gory. It shows a dozen homicide victims strewn about the city’s largest morgue, just a sample of an unusually anarchic two-day stretch in this already perilous place.
While many Venezuelans saw the picture as a sober reminder of their vulnerability and a chance to effect change, the government took a different stand.
A court ordered the paper to stop publishing images of violence, as if that would quiet growing questions about why the government — despite proclaiming a revolution that heralds socialist values — has been unable to close the dangerous gap between rich and poor and make the country’s streets safer.
“Forget the hundreds of children who die from stray bullets, or the kids who go through the horror of seeing their parents or older siblings killed before their eyes,” said Teodoro Petkoff, the editor of another newspaper here, mocking the court’s decision in a front-page editorial. “Their problem is the photograph.”
Venezuela is struggling with a decade-long surge in homicides, with about 118,541 since President Hugo Chávez took office in 1999, according to the Venezuelan Violence Observatory, a group that compiles figures based on police files. (The government has stopped publicly releasing its own detailed homicide statistics, but has not disputed the group’s numbers, and news reports citing unreleased government figures suggest human rights groups may actually be undercounting murders).
There have been 43,792 homicides in Venezuela since 2007, according to the violence observatory, compared with about 28,000 deaths from drug-related violence in Mexico since that country’s assault on cartels began in late 2006.
Caracas itself is almost unrivaled among large cities in the Americas for its homicide rate, which currently stands at around 200 per 100,000 inhabitants, according to Roberto Briceño-León, the sociologist at the Central University of Venezuela who directs the violence observatory.
That compares with recent measures of 22.7 per 100,000 people in Bogotá, Colombia’s capital, and 14 per 100,000 in São Paulo, Brazil’s largest city. As Mr. Chávez’s government often points out, Venezuela’s crime problem did not emerge overnight, and the concern over murders preceded his rise to power.
But scholars here describe the climb in homicides in the past decade as unprecedented in Venezuelan history; the number of homicides last year was more than three times higher than when Mr. Chávez was elected in 1998.
Reasons for the surge are complex and varied, experts say. While many Latin American economies are growing fast, Venezuela’s has continued to shrink. The gap between rich and poor remains wide, despite spending on anti-poverty programs, fueling resentment. Adding to that, the nation is awash in millions of illegal firearms.
Police salaries remain low, sapping motivation. And in a country with the highest inflation rate in the hemisphere, more than 30 percent a year, some officers have turned to supplementing their incomes with crimes like kidnappings.
But some crime specialists say another factor has to be considered: Mr. Chávez’s government itself. The judicial system has grown increasingly politicized, losing independent judges and aligning itself more closely with Mr. Chávez’s political movement. Many experienced state employees have had to leave public service, or even the country.
More than 90 percent of murders go unsolved, without a single arrest, Mr. Briceño-León said. But cases against Mr. Chavez’s critics — including judges, dissident generals and media executives — are increasingly common.
Henrique Capriles, the governor of Miranda, a state encompassing parts of Caracas, told reporters last week that Mr. Chávez had worsened the homicide problem by cutting money for state and city governments led by political opponents and then removing thousands of guns from their police forces after losing regional elections.
But the government says it is trying to address the problem. It recently created a security force, the Bolivarian National Police, and a new Experimental Security University where police recruits get training from advisers from Cuba and Nicaragua, two allies that have historically maintained murder rates among Latin America’s lowest.
The national police’s overriding priority, said Víctor Díaz, a senior official on the force and an administrator at the new university, is “unrestricted respect for human rights.”
“I’m not saying we’ll be weak,” he said, “but the idea is to use dialogue and dissuasion as methods of verbal control when approaching problems.”
Senior officials in Mr. Chávez’s government say the deployment of the national police, whose ranks number fewer than 2,500, has succeeded in reducing homicides in at least one violent area of Caracas where they began patrolling this year.
Still, human rights groups suggest the new policing efforts have been far too timid. Incosec, a research group here that focuses on security issues, counted 5,962 homicides in just 10 of Venezuela’s 23 states in the first half of this year.
Meanwhile, the debate over the morgue photograph published by El Nacional is intensifying, evolving into a broader discussion over the government’s efforts to clamp down on the news outlets it does not control.
The government says the photograph was meant to undermine it, not to inform the public. The authorities are also threatening an inquiry into “Rotten Town,” a video by a Venezuelan reggae singer that shows an innocent child struck down by a stray bullet. For all the government’s protests, the video has spread rapidly across the Internet since its release here this month.
Given the government’s stance in these cases, many here worry it is focusing on the messenger, not the underlying message.
Hector Olivares, 47, waited outside the morgue early one morning this month to recover the body of his son, also named Hector, 21. He said his son was at a party in the slum of El Cercado, on the outskirts of Caracas, when a gunman opened fire.
Mr. Olivares said Hector was the second son he had lost in a senseless murder, after another son was killed four years ago at the age of 22. He said he did not blame Mr. Chávez for the killings, but he pleaded with the president to make combating crime a higher priority.
“We elected him to crack down on the problems we face,” he said. “But there’s no control of criminals on the street, no control of anything.”

María Eugenia Díaz contributed reporting.
 

dfuze

Lifer
Feb 15, 2006
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I think you have to blame it on the gov there. They seem more interested in international posturing than their own national problems. If they were interested they would have more than 2500 member police force.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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513
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I do find it amazing how many murders happen in these countries. This drug war across the border. Some pisshole town had 3500 of them last year. Even our worst cities with tens of millions never get close to that. And close to 30,000 people killed in the last couple of years in northern mexico. That is a god damn warzone.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Sociawism...baaaaaad!!!

*Cue Libertarians smashing Ayn Rand books together repeatedly in a desperate attempt to create a spark of brain power.*
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
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I think you have to blame it on the gov there. They seem more interested in international posturing than their own national problems. If they were interested they would have more than 2500 member police force.

Sounds like an Administration I know.. hmm... who could it be?
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
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You believe Sweden is socialism? Problem #1.


Yet, Sweden has gov't funded universal health care services.

And universal child care ...

And a universal pension system indexed to GDP ...

And tuition at higher education institutions is free-of-charge for those who qualify ...

And a universal unemployment insurance system providing up to 80 % of normal income ...

And as part of the **Scandinavian Welfare Model** maintains the highest of GDPs per capita in the world ...


And yet, Obama is a Socialist - LOL




--
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Yet, Sweden has gov't funded universal health care services.

And universal child care ...

And a universal pension system indexed to GDP ...

And tuition at higher education institutions is free-of-charge for those who qualify ...

And a universal unemployment insurance system providing up to 80 % of normal income ...

And as part of the **Scandinavian Welfare Model** maintains the highest of GDPs per capita in the world ...


And yet, Obama is a Socialist - LOL




--

Are you under some impression I believe Obama is a socialist?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
It is amazing that this country is in such bad trouble.

And just think, if Obama had its way Honduras would be following that path too.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,221
654
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Yet, Sweden has gov't funded universal health care services.

And universal child care ...

And a universal pension system indexed to GDP ...

And tuition at higher education institutions is free-of-charge for those who qualify ...

And a universal unemployment insurance system providing up to 80 % of normal income ...

And as part of the **Scandinavian Welfare Model** maintains the highest of GDPs per capita in the world ...


And yet, Obama is a Socialist - LOL




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But but but I was told Obama is a commie socialist muslim!!!111
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
You believe Sweden is socialism? Problem #1.

Nope, but it fits one of the right wing descriptions of socialism. Universal Health Care, Environmental Regulation, free college, and what not. You know, a country where they pay taxes for the common good rather than the good of Big Business and their Lobbyists.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
What was once a decent country has gone bad in every way imaginable. Is it because of socialism or just bad government?

The Venezuelan Observatory of Violence (OVV), whose data is widely followed in the absence of official statistics, said the South American nation has one of the highest crime rates on the continent, with 54 homicides per 100,000 citizens in 2009.

New Orleans is 63.6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

St. Louis 46.9
Detroit 37.4
Baltimore 36.9
Washington 31.4

Also the second link says this
2009 has seen a number of significant improvements in levels of armed and non-state terrorist violence in Iraq. However, even taking into account worsening conditions elsewhere in the world, such violence still afflicts Iraq's population more than any other.

Also this wiki link shows Venezuela with a 49.2 in 2000, that don't work with the quadrupled number being claimed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide
 
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Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,272
103
106
New Orleans is 63.6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

St. Louis 46.9
Detroit 37.4
Baltimore 36.9
Washington 31.4

Also the second link says this


Also this wiki link shows Venezuela with a 49.2 in 2000, that don't work with the quadrupled number being claimed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

If you're going to compare, you need to compare apples to apples. You're listing homicide rates for individual cities (like New Orleans), not the country (US) as a whole. To compare cities:
Caracas itself is almost unrivaled among large cities in the Americas for its homicide rate, which currently stands at around 200 per 100,000 inhabitants

Yowser. 200 per 100k, that's absolutely incredible, it makes New Orleans and DC and places like that seem like crime free safe havens. There might be some other places that are worse, but not many, and not major cities with millions of inhabitants.

I don't see anything about quadruple, the article posted says the homicide rate more than tripled since 1998. According to the reuters link:
When Chavez came to power in 1999 there were 4,550 homicides whereas in 2009 there were 16,047, the OVV said.

That supports the "more than tripling" claim (at least in absolute numbers), I'm not sure where the wiki numbers come from, but it's probably from the "official" Venezuelan government reports, which I'm sure are laughable in terms of accuracy.
 

Toastedlightly

Diamond Member
Aug 7, 2004
7,213
6
81
Yet, Sweden has gov't funded universal health care services.

And universal child care ...

And a universal pension system indexed to GDP ...

And tuition at higher education institutions is free-of-charge for those who qualify ...

And a universal unemployment insurance system providing up to 80 % of normal income ...

And as part of the **Scandinavian Welfare Model** maintains the highest of GDPs per capita in the world ...


And yet, Obama is a Socialist - LOL




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Now, not to burst your bubble, but from this wiki page:

http://forums.anandtech.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=30349635

The evil capitalist United States has a higher GDP per capita than Sweden by three different measures (~10k on a 45k scale).

Now granted, we do have similar things here in the United States. Those who qualify (read: are poor) are able to get a heavily discounted education. Also, those who are most capable can find scholarships to reduce the cost of education.

We also seem to have this system of unemployment as well. It supplies what, 2 years worth?

As per Wiki:

"The maximum unemployment benefit is (as of July 2007) SEK 680 per day (SEK 14,960 per month). During the first 200 days the unemployed will receive 80 percent of his or her normal income during the last 12 months. From day 201-300 this goes down to 70 percent and from day 301-450 the insurance covers 65 percent of the normal income (only available for parents to children under the age of 18). In Sweden tax is paid on unemployment benefits, so the unemployed will get a maximum of about SEK 10,000 per month during the first 100 days (depending on the municipality tax rate). In other currencies this means a maximum of approximately £730, $1,650, or €1,100, each month after tax. Private insurance is also available, mainly through professional organizations, to provide income related compensation that otherwise exceeds the ceiling of the scheme. The comprehensive scheme is funded by tax."

So their average unemployment "payout" is about equal to what can be expected (perhaps less) from the US system. Interesting.

To conclude, both systems have problems, but both seem viable enough to me. Government can solve problems with your/other people's money and you can solve problems with your money. *shrug*
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
If you're going to compare, you need to compare apples to apples.

I was just trying to go with the whole *what was once a decent country has gone bad in every way imaginable* thing
Just seemed somewhat hypocritical

I got the quadrupled, from the "decade-long surge in homicides," link in the article.

Venezuela murder-rate quadrupled under Chavez: NGO

So I guess the guys links contradict each other.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
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Nope, but it fits one of the right wing descriptions of socialism. Universal Health Care, Environmental Regulation, free college, and what not. You know, a country where they pay taxes for the common good rather than the good of Big Business and their Lobbyists.

That is funny. I have many right winged friends and they typically look at the Soviet Union, NK, and other despot regimes where true socialism is practiced as their examples. It seems only the socialist\lefty types in this countrypoint towards Sweden as an example of socialism. I suspect it is an attempt to redefine the ideology so it can be sold to the avg person.