Vegans...

[SWScorch]

Yeah, you can be a vegetarian and still be healthy; actually, the four-time Western States 100-miler winner is a vegan, and he's insanely fit and healthy. He says his health improved tenfold once he went vegan. However, to stay healthy while avoiding meat is hard; you have to eat a lot of nuts and soy and other stuff that I generally don't care for. So, I'm not saying that vegans are unhealthy; just that I generally prefer meat to the alternatives. I like meat quite a bit, and while sometimes I think about trying being vegetarian for a while, I'd rather stay with meat.

And red meat is very good for runners, but yes, it does have risks as well. Medium-rare steak is a great source of protein and other stuff that I forget, but it also has a high percentage of carcinogens, I believe. Or maybe the more well-done it is, the more carcinogens... I forget. Fish is also very good, protein, Omega 3 fatty acids, etc, but I can't stand the taste of fish (save tuna and sardines). From runnersworld.com:

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Meat/poultry
28. Lean roast beef: With an abundance of vitamin B, iron, and zinc (which aids in healing and sexual function), lean roast beef is the most nutrient-dense red meat, says Clark. As with bread and lettuce, the darker the meat, the more nutrients it contains.

29. Top-round ground beef: The top cuts of beef and sirloin are the leanest and provide needed protein. Try using this as an accompaniment--not the main dish--so your portion is smaller. Or put it in a stir fry or burrito, suggests Applegate.

30. Chicken: For good lean protein--though with not as much iron as red meat--eat chicken baked, grilled, or broiled, but not fried (too fatty).

31. Lamb: There's plenty of protein, iron, and zinc in a lamb roast. Just make sure you trim away the fat after cooking.
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Maybe it is easier on my conscience to think that only some animals are treated unfairly. And I don't know why it sometimes seems pointless to me to treat them well; I am something of an animal lover (not to PETA extremes by any means, but when you grow up with 40+ pets, you learn to appreciate them.) To tell you the truth, upon further reflection, I don't think that's really what I meant to say in the first place. It's not right to keep animals cooped up under horrible conditions; I think I wanted to reply to people who say it's wrong for us to kill animals for food. A human killing a cow to make hamburgers is no different than a cheetah killing a gazelle. It bothers me when people say that's wrong to kill a cow or a chicken for food, because that's how animals survive, and guess what? We're animals.

 

[GroundZero]

ok all you tree hugging granola head freaks,
here is the way of the world:
check out your teeth sometime, if your dumbass has any teeth left.
hmmm, the teeth of an omnivore...canines , inscisors and molars...
i am an equal opportunity chow hound. give me your cows, pigs, birds,rabbits, deer, elk, bear, lambs, etc... and i will kill it and eat it. pull them roots out, pluck that fruit, rip their heads off...i will kill it and eat it. i was made to eat anything i can catch, kill, or grow. so i do. all you animal loving fools can kiss my rosy red one. hell i get hungry enough, i'll kill your tree-hugger ass and bbq you up for dinner. no regrets no shame.
in short there is nothing better than a big thick juicy hunk of beef cooked up rare with a nice shimp louie, baked potato with the works including pig bits, sauted mushrooms, oyster shooters, and a cold mug of beer.
all i have to say is when you are whining about me being a murderer of meat is:
WHAT ABOUT THE WHEAT DUDE? DAMN GRASS KILLER! WHAT ABOUT THOSE CARROTS FEELINGS?
there are way more important things in life to worry about than some dumbass cow that was bred and raised for my eating enjoyment.

 

[waggy]

I remember reading a story about a family that was vegan.

they had a 2 year old child that was taken away because it was way underwaight. They were NOT giving the child either breast milk or cow milk. When DCFS came to get the kid they thought it was a newborn because of its size.

wish i had the link to the story. but while cases like this are extreme i still cant see how it is healthy not having milk, cheese, or meat.

I love all 3. heck i have cheese with almost every meal and meat almost every day. hmm all this talk about meat has made me hungry. think i will go hit McDonalds!

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio
What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

We're not talking about euthanasia. We are talking about the striking down of an otherwise healthy animal in its prime. How is that fair, humane or just regardless of who kills it or by what means?

Still can't grasp it huh? The euthanasia reference just clearly demonstrates that there are humane and inhumane ways of killing animals. Even convicted murderers are put to death in humane ways, and other prisoners are kept in cells that meet some standard that is not cruel and unusual punishment.

There's no reason livestock has to be tortured and kept in disgusting conditions for their entire lives.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: waggy
i still cant see how it is healthy not having milk, cheese, or meat.

I love all 3. heck i have cheese with almost every meal and meat almost every day. hmm all this talk about meat has made me hungry. think i will go hit McDonalds!

Going to McDonald's and eating cheese with every meal? You clearly have a grasp on healthy eating...lol.

 

[TechnoKid]

Originally posted by: waggy
I remember reading a story about a family that was vegan.

they had a 2 year old child that was taken away because it was way underwaight. They were NOT giving the child either breast milk or cow milk. When DCFS came to get the kid they thought it was a newborn because of its size.

wish i had the link to the story. but while cases like this are extreme i still cant see how it is healthy not having milk, cheese, or meat.

I love all 3. heck i have cheese with almost every meal and meat almost every day. hmm all this talk about meat has made me hungry. think i will go hit McDonalds!

Breast milk from the mother has been shown to be one of the best things to feed a newborn through 6mos or older. And excluding this in a vegan diet is silly, IMO.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: TechnoKid

Originally posted by: waggy
I remember reading a story about a family that was vegan.

they had a 2 year old child that was taken away because it was way underwaight. They were NOT giving the child either breast milk or cow milk. When DCFS came to get the kid they thought it was a newborn because of its size.

wish i had the link to the story. but while cases like this are extreme i still cant see how it is healthy not having milk, cheese, or meat.

I love all 3. heck i have cheese with almost every meal and meat almost every day. hmm all this talk about meat has made me hungry. think i will go hit McDonalds!

Breast milk from the mother has been shown to be one of the best things to feed a newborn through 6mos or older. And excluding this in a vegan diet is silly, IMO.

I don't think that mother's milk is normally excluded from vegan diets.

 

[Konigin]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Best post evar

I would like to add that its really disgusting that someone couldn't "bring" themselves to kill a cow, its food! Its not some random person you decide to take out because you're hungry, it was made to feed you, thats its job in life.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Konigin

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Best post evar

I would like to add that its really disgusting that someone couldn't "bring" themselves to kill a cow, its food! Its not some random person you decide to take out because you're hungry, it was made to feed you, thats its job in life.

Actually, that is far from the best post ever. Its actually quite awful. He was pretty much completely wrong about me. And, this is great, you think its disgusting that someone couldn't bring themselves to kill a cow.

Let me ask you, out of all of the meat eaters in the US, how many of them do you think would kill a cow by themselves? Id bet more than half wouldn't be able to. Many just aren't natural born killers. Maybe you are, thats fine, but most people have their blinders on. They'd rather not know what really goes on.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: GroundZero
ok all you tree hugging granola head freaks,
here is the way of the world:
check out your teeth sometime, if your dumbass has any teeth left.
hmmm, the teeth of an omnivore...canines , inscisors and molars...
i am an equal opportunity chow hound. give me your cows, pigs, birds,rabbits, deer, elk, bear, lambs, etc... and i will kill it and eat it. pull them roots out, pluck that fruit, rip their heads off...i will kill it and eat it. i was made to eat anything i can catch, kill, or grow. so i do. all you animal loving fools can kiss my rosy red one. hell i get hungry enough, i'll kill your tree-hugger ass and bbq you up for dinner. no regrets no shame.
in short there is nothing better than a big thick juicy hunk of beef cooked up rare with a nice shimp louie, baked potato with the works including pig bits, sauted mushrooms, oyster shooters, and a cold mug of beer.
all i have to say is when you are whining about me being a murderer of meat is:
WHAT ABOUT THE WHEAT DUDE? DAMN GRASS KILLER! WHAT ABOUT THOSE CARROTS FEELINGS?
there are way more important things in life to worry about than some dumbass cow that was bred and raised for my eating enjoyment.

I feel sorry for you, I really do. I didn't think anyone nearly as dumb as you would post in this thread. I should have known better.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Jzero
Frankly, I think this kind of "political veganism" is despicable. Killing animals is killing animals. If you are against the killing of another living creature, then that's fine, I support that. Stop eating them. But to claim that an animal killed by a hunter or fisherman is somehow more acceptable than an animal killed by a farmer just doesn't make any sense. If you want to improve an industry's practices, then use the political process to try to do so. Think Upton Sinclair.

But killing is killing. Either you are against killing animals for food, or you are ok with it. If you are ok with it, you're not a vegan. I know a guy who claims to be vegan and then he comes in with a venison steak, and he uses the same excuse you do. News flash: You are not a vegan.

Anyway, I support eating a lto of vegetarian/vegan food for health purposes. I eat mostly vegetarian myself, but there is a place in our diet for meats that I won't ignore. And I won't use a logically shaky reason to avoid them.

I can't belive you don't find it more acceptable. Newsflash: It isn't a "farmer" who does the killing anymore. They don't go take a cow from the pasture, take it around back behind the barn, and kill it.

You're playing word games. These people raise (read: FARM) animals. They are farmers. No, they aren't slackjawed southerners with a straw in their teeth, they are modern business men with efficient, mechanical means of slaughtering many many animals in one shot.
Call them what you will, we are talking about the same people.

You fail to see I am not trying to improve an industry's practice, because I know that myself alone changing to a meatless diet won't change the industry.

Then what is your point?
If you're doing it because you don't believe in killing, then OK.
If you're doing it because you think it's healthy, then OK.
If you're doing it because you're an animal lover, then OK.
But if you're doing it to protest the mistreatment of some of the animals knowing full well that it won't help any of them, what is the point? Wouldn't your time and efforts be better spent lobbying for change?

About the hunting thing, see, I don't hunt. I never have, nor will I ever. I am not your friend who comes in with a venison steak.

How is my reason logically shaky? Do you think the conditions animals are raised in, are acceptable? I hope not. Fact is, I don't eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, eggs, or dairy products of any kind. I also refrain from milk, honey, leather, silk, wool, down, pearls, or any other animal product.

Well that contradicts your earlier statement that you would be willing to eat fish or game if you killed it yourself.

I was merely saying out of the two different ways of killing animals, I find the hunting way better, but that doesn't mean I SUPPORT it.

It is logically shaky because it stands on the same sort of moral relativism people use to justify stealing from Wal-Mart when they wouldn't steal from the local general store. "There's two types of stealing, and I think it's OK to steal from a large corporation because they can afford the loss."
You're saying "There's two types of killing, and I think it's OK to kill animals in a way that I feel is acceptable."

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

You even further proved my point. Yes, these are large companies, whose only intent is on making more money. That means killing as many animals as possible, the fastest, regardless of how the animals are treated. Understand? If they treated the animals better, would they make more money? Of course not, so obviously it wouldn't be cost effective for them.

Who said I had a fvcking point? I decided to be vegan after finding out the practices of factory farming. Simple as that, I guess its just too complicated for you to understand. How is what I am doing a protest? If I wanted to protest Id join PETA. Im suprised it doesn't make sense to you, its not difficult to understand. One animal is free from brith, lives its life the way it wants to, the other is horribly mistreated, misfed, injected with hormones, and destined to be killed for meat and consumed by thousands who have no clue or even care how the meat came to them. My "beef" ( no pun intended) is with the ignorant who don't bother to think about the industry that supports their craving for meat. Everyone who eats meat should see how the animals are treated, killed, and processed.

 

[Konigin]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Konigin

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Best post evar

I would like to add that its really disgusting that someone couldn't "bring" themselves to kill a cow, its food! Its not some random person you decide to take out because you're hungry, it was made to feed you, thats its job in life.

Actually, that is far from the best post ever. Its actually quite awful. He was pretty much completely wrong about me. And, this is great, you think its disgusting that someone couldn't bring themselves to kill a cow.

Let me ask you, out of all of the meat eaters in the US, how many of them do you think would kill a cow by themselves? Id bet more than half wouldn't be able to. Many just aren't natural born killers. Maybe you are, thats fine, but most people have their blinders on. They'd rather not know what really goes on.

Probably not too many would kill a cow, but I would. I do know what goes on, I still eat meat, I like it too. But I respect your choice to not eat meat if you don't want to, what you do doesn't matter to me. I do think you should respect the fact that a lot of people know what goes on and just don't care enough to not eat meat.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Konigin

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Konigin

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Best post evar

I would like to add that its really disgusting that someone couldn't "bring" themselves to kill a cow, its food! Its not some random person you decide to take out because you're hungry, it was made to feed you, thats its job in life.

Actually, that is far from the best post ever. Its actually quite awful. He was pretty much completely wrong about me. And, this is great, you think its disgusting that someone couldn't bring themselves to kill a cow.

Let me ask you, out of all of the meat eaters in the US, how many of them do you think would kill a cow by themselves? Id bet more than half wouldn't be able to. Many just aren't natural born killers. Maybe you are, thats fine, but most people have their blinders on. They'd rather not know what really goes on.

Probably not too many would kill a cow, but I would. I do know what goes on, I still eat meat, I like it too. But I respect your choice to not eat meat if you don't want to, what you do doesn't matter to me. I do think you should respect the fact that a lot of people know what goes on and just don't care enough to not eat meat.

Well that is my point, not many would kill a cow, so they let someone else do the dirty work and forget that an animal died so they could eat that meat. I am glad you know what goes on, that is great. I would respect that fact, if it was true, but what do you consider a lot of people? 5%? If I asked everyone at my school how animals are processed for meat they'd just look at me funny, except for just a few.

 

[thomsbrain]

even with that rational, i'd still drink milk and eat cheese, but only from specific local brands. in NorCal, there's a company called Clover that not only makes great stuff, but the animals it comes from live in good conditions. i know, because i've personally toured some of the facilities where they get their milk. but i have to admit that when i have to buy safeway milk or whatever, it disturbs me to know that it didn't come from "happy cows," no matter what the commercials say.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
even with that rational, i'd still drink milk and eat cheese, but only from specific local brands. in NorCal, there's a company called Clover that not only makes great stuff, but the animals it comes from live in good conditions. i know, because i've personally toured some of the facilities where they get their milk. but i have to admit that when i have to buy safeway milk or whatever, it disturbs me to know that it didn't come from "happy cows," no matter what the commercials say.

Good for you, seriously. You understand how bad factory farming is and support your local brand.

 

[Konigin]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Konigin

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Konigin

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Best post evar

I would like to add that its really disgusting that someone couldn't "bring" themselves to kill a cow, its food! Its not some random person you decide to take out because you're hungry, it was made to feed you, thats its job in life.

Actually, that is far from the best post ever. Its actually quite awful. He was pretty much completely wrong about me. And, this is great, you think its disgusting that someone couldn't bring themselves to kill a cow.

Let me ask you, out of all of the meat eaters in the US, how many of them do you think would kill a cow by themselves? Id bet more than half wouldn't be able to. Many just aren't natural born killers. Maybe you are, thats fine, but most people have their blinders on. They'd rather not know what really goes on.

Probably not too many would kill a cow, but I would. I do know what goes on, I still eat meat, I like it too. But I respect your choice to not eat meat if you don't want to, what you do doesn't matter to me. I do think you should respect the fact that a lot of people know what goes on and just don't care enough to not eat meat.

Well that is my point, not many would kill a cow, so they let someone else do the dirty work and forget that an animal died so they could eat that meat. I am glad you know what goes on, that is great. I would respect that fact, if it was true, but what do you consider a lot of people? 5%? If I asked everyone at my school how animals are processed for meat they'd just look at me funny, except for just a few.

There is a lot of information about how meat is processed, not as though its a big dark secret. Even if everyone knew, do you actually think you could get them to not eat meat? PITA does a great job, most people know who they are and what their cause is, but the majority of Americans still don't care.

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: hjo3
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there more to being vegan than just not eating meat? Aren't they forbidden from using leather, eating eggs & cheese and stuff like that? Otherwise, I think you're just a vegetarian.

Correct, but I don't eat eggs or cheese (havent had an egg in a long time anyway).

How big were you before you started all of this?

Weight or age? I am 17.

weight and height

 

[deerslayer]

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: deerslayer

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Can I use this next time someone tells me that deer should have rifles?

I can never come up with anything that good!

Give them all the rifles they can carry... I'd like to get a free rifle or two every time I bag a deer. You can give a deer a rifle, but unless you give him opposable thumbs, nothing is going to happen.

EDIT: and if you did somehow graft on some opposable thumbs, the hippies will b!tch and moan. D@mned if you do, d@mned if you dont

A fellow deer hunter? :beer:

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio
What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

We're not talking about euthanasia. We are talking about the striking down of an otherwise healthy animal in its prime. How is that fair, humane or just regardless of who kills it or by what means?

Still can't grasp it huh? The euthanasia reference just clearly demonstrates that there are humane and inhumane ways of killing animals. Even convicted murderers are put to death in humane ways, and other prisoners are kept in cells that meet some standard that is not cruel and unusual punishment.

There's no reason livestock has to be tortured and kept in disgusting conditions for their entire lives.

Go back and reread my post. I'm not debating whether you think one way of killing is more humane, I'm debating whether killing is humane AT ALL.
So it's "humane" to blow a deer's head off just because it was living freely while it's not OK to shoot a steer because it lived its life in captivity or in a poorly managed meat plant?
So it's OK to shoot an American because he lived freely while it's not OK to shoot an Afghan because he lived a squalid, oppressed life? See how backwards this mentality is?
Not all "food" livestock live in these extreme conditions, either. Become a political vegan just to spite a few bad apples? Hey, if it makes you feel good, it's your issue.

But I'm going to stand here and say "WTF?"
Either you eat meat, or you don't. I'm not buying into this "Well, actually I will eat it if I happen to agree with the way that it lived and died."

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Jzero


Go back and reread my post. I'm not debating whether you think one way of killing is more humane, I'm debating whether killing is humane AT ALL.

It can be. There are humane ways of treating and killing people, pets, livestock and there are inhumane ways of treating and killing things.

So it's "humane" to blow a deer's head off just because it was living freely while it's not OK to shoot a steer because it lived its life in captivity or in a poorly managed meat plant?

No, it's humane to let a deer live in the wild. It's inhumane to to keep animals immobilized for the bulk of their lives like this.

So it's OK to shoot an American because he lived freely while it's not OK to shoot an Afghan because he lived a squalid, oppressed life? See how backwards this mentality is?

Since the American and the Afghan are both going to die are you saying it shouldn't matter if we toture them both for their entire lives? See how backwards this mentality is?

Not all "food" livestock live in these extreme conditions, either. Become a political vegan just to spite a few bad apples?

No. The average factory farm is the problem. If you eat meat the thing to do is buy from a source that does employ the inhumane methods. It's increasingly easy to spot with the certifications being used by the industry just the same as you can now find organic produce more abundantly.

But I'm going to stand here and say "WTF?"
Either you eat meat, or you don't. I'm not buying into this "Well, actually I will eat it if I happen to agree with the way that it lived and died."

If you just can't understand why people don't want to encourage animal torture then I don't know what else to tell you. Limiting meat intake also has health and environmental benefits as well so there's actually a few reasons why people lean this direction.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: deerslayer

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: deerslayer

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Can I use this next time someone tells me that deer should have rifles?

I can never come up with anything that good!

Give them all the rifles they can carry... I'd like to get a free rifle or two every time I bag a deer. You can give a deer a rifle, but unless you give him opposable thumbs, nothing is going to happen.

EDIT: and if you did somehow graft on some opposable thumbs, the hippies will b!tch and moan. D@mned if you do, d@mned if you dont

A fellow deer hunter? :beer:

Id like to reiterate that my best friend is a deer hunter.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio
What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

We're not talking about euthanasia. We are talking about the striking down of an otherwise healthy animal in its prime. How is that fair, humane or just regardless of who kills it or by what means?

Still can't grasp it huh? The euthanasia reference just clearly demonstrates that there are humane and inhumane ways of killing animals. Even convicted murderers are put to death in humane ways, and other prisoners are kept in cells that meet some standard that is not cruel and unusual punishment.

There's no reason livestock has to be tortured and kept in disgusting conditions for their entire lives.

Go back and reread my post. I'm not debating whether you think one way of killing is more humane, I'm debating whether killing is humane AT ALL.
So it's "humane" to blow a deer's head off just because it was living freely while it's not OK to shoot a steer because it lived its life in captivity or in a poorly managed meat plant?
So it's OK to shoot an American because he lived freely while it's not OK to shoot an Afghan because he lived a squalid, oppressed life? See how backwards this mentality is?
Not all "food" livestock live in these extreme conditions, either. Become a political vegan just to spite a few bad apples? Hey, if it makes you feel good, it's your issue.

But I'm going to stand here and say "WTF?"
Either you eat meat, or you don't. I'm not buying into this "Well, actually I will eat it if I happen to agree with the way that it lived and died."

You fvcking idiot. You don't get it. I DON'T EAT MEAT. How many times do I have te tell you that?! I love the "spite a few bad apples" part. Yep, out of all the cows that die a day, only a few lived in inhumane conditions. Sure.

 

[Eli]

People, like I said in my earlier posts.. for me at least, it is not about killing the animal. It is not wrong to kill an animal for food. That is just stupidity.

My gripe is the way the animals live until their humane death.

Another big problem for me is what the animals are fed. It is absolutely not okay in my book to feed herbivores waste meat and other garbage. That is just disgusting and wrong. It really does effect the taste and quality of the meat. Go buy some local ground beef that came from a free roaming grain-fed cow. Then go buy your local supermarket garbage. I guarentee you will be amazed.

Yet another thing I find disgusting is the hormones they pump the animals full of to get them to produce more.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio
What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

We're not talking about euthanasia. We are talking about the striking down of an otherwise healthy animal in its prime. How is that fair, humane or just regardless of who kills it or by what means?

Still can't grasp it huh? The euthanasia reference just clearly demonstrates that there are humane and inhumane ways of killing animals. Even convicted murderers are put to death in humane ways, and other prisoners are kept in cells that meet some standard that is not cruel and unusual punishment.

There's no reason livestock has to be tortured and kept in disgusting conditions for their entire lives.

Go back and reread my post. I'm not debating whether you think one way of killing is more humane, I'm debating whether killing is humane AT ALL.
So it's "humane" to blow a deer's head off just because it was living freely while it's not OK to shoot a steer because it lived its life in captivity or in a poorly managed meat plant?
So it's OK to shoot an American because he lived freely while it's not OK to shoot an Afghan because he lived a squalid, oppressed life? See how backwards this mentality is?
Not all "food" livestock live in these extreme conditions, either. Become a political vegan just to spite a few bad apples? Hey, if it makes you feel good, it's your issue.

But I'm going to stand here and say "WTF?"
Either you eat meat, or you don't. I'm not buying into this "Well, actually I will eat it if I happen to agree with the way that it lived and died."

You fvcking idiot. You don't get it. I DON'T EAT MEAT. How many times do I have te tell you that?! I love the "spite a few bad apples" part. Yep, out of all the cows that die a day, only a few lived in inhumane conditions. Sure.

OK, you hypocritical tool.
You SPECIFICALLY STATED in your first few posts to this thread that the reason you are becoming a vegan is because you are upset about poor treatment of animals on farms.
You also SPECIFICALLY STATED that you would be willing to eat fish/dear if you caught it or felt that it had been killed in an acceptable manner.
Your words:

would still eat, say, a fish if I caught it myself

If I hunted the deer myself, if I pulled the trigger and shot the deer, yes I would eat it. It lived freely, and I killed it as quickly as possible, humanely IMO.

You and Flavio in your haughty "I'm a vegan" smarminess both seem to want to ingnore these statements, but that is the crux of my questioning of you. Why is it ok to kill the animals at all?

I'm through discussing with any punk kid who can't handle debate and has to lash out with expletives and personal insults.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Jzero

You and Flavio in your haughty "I'm a vegan" smarminess both seem to want to ingnore these statements, but that is the crux of my questioning of you. Why is it ok to kill the animals at all?

I'm through discussing with any punk kid who can't handle debate and has to lash out with expletives and personal insults.

I'm not a vegan or even a vegetarian, I just don't eat meat very much. I did respond to every one of your points in my last post. I don't think it is wrong to kill animals for food, it is wrong to torture them though.