Vegans...

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: Eli

You need MUCH MUCH more seeds, nuts, grains and greens in there. You should become much more healthy if you eat correctly..

Well, that was kind of a bad example. I did eat quite a bit of vegetables, like stir fry and sometimes raw, plus I ate things like granola and high-fiber cereals. It was the same thing my roomates ate. I felt fine, but I broke out like mad and started losing weight. When I left my roomates in October, that's when the weight came off because I couldn't get the same kinds of food in my hometown.

 

[Palek]

The sad fact of the matter is that, since we're not all filthy rich, we cannot all afford meat coming from real farms where animals are treated properly. People like meat, even poor people, and if somebody gives it to them for an affordable price, they will get it, without ever giving a thought to WHERE the meat came from. Most people cannot afford having a bad conscience about such things. Conversely, if someone can make a profit selling the meat of animals raised in a crate, they will do it. Our overpopulated planet and capitalism at their worst.
While I am not a big meat eater, I do like having some ham or a nice steak every now and then. But, like I said, I am not rich enough to get "properly treated" meat, and I am nowhere near convinced that a fully vegetarian diet is actually good for you...

 

[bigalt]

i heard that vegan flesh tastes far better than that of people that eat meat.

 

[Jzero]

Frankly, I think this kind of "political veganism" is despicable. Killing animals is killing animals. If you are against the killing of another living creature, then that's fine, I support that. Stop eating them. But to claim that an animal killed by a hunter or fisherman is somehow more acceptable than an animal killed by a farmer just doesn't make any sense. If you want to improve an industry's practices, then use the political process to try to do so. Think Upton Sinclair.

But killing is killing. Either you are against killing animals for food, or you are ok with it. If you are ok with it, you're not a vegan. I know a guy who claims to be vegan and then he comes in with a venison steak, and he uses the same excuse you do. News flash: You are not a vegan.

Anyway, I support eating a lto of vegetarian/vegan food for health purposes. I eat mostly vegetarian myself, but there is a place in our diet for meats that I won't ignore. And I won't use a logically shaky reason to avoid them.

 

[TheShiz]

Whatever you eat it was at one time a living organism. Believe it or not, we all are descended from one living thing, every blade of grass, cow, ant, and human. We have evolved in a way that we survive by eating living things, plants and animals. I saw an interesting program on animals and how they compare to us. One example they gave was a chicken, they gave the chicken the choice of eating the crap it would get at a chicken farm or cabbage, the chicken chose the cabbage every time. Is it wrong to deny the chicken this pleasure? It enjoyed cabbage, just like say, we enjoy meat. Our body sends out pleasurable sensations when we eat things we like, most likely because they are beneficial to eat. One reason more and more people are getting fat is because we really haven't evolved much in the past couple thousand years, yet we have created, at least in this country, an incredible abundance of food, and our bodies tell us to eat too much expecting the surplus not to last.

So are we doing wrong by caging up and farming chickens, forcing them to lead pretty crappy lives so we can enjoy the way they taste? What if some super intelligent alien species found earth and decided humans were tasty, would that be ok? Animals may seem dumb but they do have pretty amazing abilities, even tiny insects like termites, how in the hell do they coordinate building those huge mounds? Definitely a question for the ages, I'd rather eat something I was not related to, but I also like living. With animals over plants we are just eating something that is more closely related to us. It is hard to determine how wrong or right this is because I think we still understand so little.

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: TheShiz
Whatever you eat it was at one time a living organism. Believe it or not, we all are descended from one living thing, every blade of grass, cow, ant, and human. We have evolved in a way that we survive by eating living things, plants and animals. I saw an interesting program on animals and how they compare to us. One example they gave was a chicken, they gave the chicken the choice of eating the crap it would get at a chicken farm or cabbage, the chicken chose the cabbage every time. Is it wrong to deny the chicken this pleasure? It enjoyed cabbage, just like say, we enjoy meat. Our body sends out pleasurable sensations when we eat things we like, most likely because they are beneficial to eat. One reason more and more people are getting fat is because we really haven't evolved much in the past couple thousand years, yet we have created, at least in this country, an incredible abundance of food, and our bodies tell us to eat too much expecting the surplus not to last.

So are we doing wrong by caging up and farming chickens, forcing them to lead pretty crappy lives so we can enjoy the way they taste? What if some super intelligent alien species found earth and decided humans were tasty, would that be ok? Animals may seem dumb but they do have pretty amazing abilities, even tiny insects like termites, how in the hell do they coordinate building those huge mounds? Definitely a question for the ages, I'd rather eat something I was not related to, but I also like living. With animals over plants we are just eating something that is more closely related to us. It is hard to determine how wrong or right this is because I think we still understand so little.

Cliff Notes

Ants and termites are amazing
Chickens like cabbage
Humans are related to grass
Aliens are going to eat the humans
:Q

He has me worried....

 

[TheShiz]

Cliff Notes

1) Ants and termites are amazing
2) Chickens like cabbage
3) Humans are related to grass
4) Aliens are going to eat the humans
:Q

He has me worried....

1) if you don't think so you should watch some of david attenborough's documentaries
2) indeed it seems that way
3) genetically, yes we are, you want to debate that?
4) that was hypothetical, obviously

 

[PatboyX]

now, i met some very nice vegans and really, to each his own. i knew a girl who (i think) single-handedly tried to ruin everyone's opinions of vegans by attempting to push her belief system on to every single person she met (she onced keyed the car of a girl who ate chicken nuggets) and getting very self-rightous about the political and personal agenda of being vegan. very much one of those high and mighty types. generally speaking, if a person labels themselves *anything* to me within the first five minutes of conversation, a red flag goes up.
so: sane vegans, im all for
nutso conversionists: im against...or at least i avoid them if possible.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: deerslayer

Originally posted by: MichaelD
*no personal offense intended, just my observations and personal experiences*


Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are a college age person. You are active in the community. You feel you can make a difference. You see sooooo many things wrong with the world and you think you can fix every last one, or at least contribute to the cause...you feel guilty if you don't "do something." You wear Birkenstocks. <--maybe reaching w/that one

You feel that "what we do to those poor animals" is wrong, as it's not what nature intended. You feel that to make deer season a fair fight, the deer should have rifles too.

Well, there is a reason why we are at the top of the food chain; superior intelligence. From the moment that first knuckle dragging, ape-like ancestor picked up a stick and clubbed that animal into submission, our rise to the top began.

If you want to have a "personally clean conscience and soul" that is nobody's business but yours. IOW, please don't come back here, soapbox in hand and tell me how evil I am b/c I eat red, bleeding, still moving meat. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, but the second you try and force your ideals on me, I'll be all over you like a bad suit.

Are we clear?

Peachy.

Can I use this next time someone tells me that deer should have rifles?

I can never come up with anything that good!

Give them all the rifles they can carry... I'd like to get a free rifle or two every time I bag a deer. You can give a deer a rifle, but unless you give him opposable thumbs, nothing is going to happen.

EDIT: and if you did somehow graft on some opposable thumbs, the hippies will b!tch and moan. D@mned if you do, d@mned if you dont

 

[n0cmonkey]

I understand doind it for possible health reasons, feeling sorry for meat isn't something I understand.

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: hjo3
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there more to being vegan than just not eating meat? Aren't they forbidden from using leather, eating eggs & cheese and stuff like that? Otherwise, I think you're just a vegetarian.

Correct, but I don't eat eggs or cheese (havent had an egg in a long time anyway).

How big were you before you started all of this?

 

[SWScorch]

more power to you. I agree that the living conditions of livestock are horrible. However, as an athlete, I recognize the importance of eating meat, and I am not going to give up food that I love because some animals are treated badly. And, you can debate the health risks and benefits till the cows come home (heh!), but meat is a great source of protein and red meat is very good for you. I highly doubt all or even most livestock are in such inhumane conditions. Do I wish the ones that are would be treated better? Yes, in a sense. But it also seems silly to treat animals so well that are just going to slaughtered for food anyway. Is that enough for me to stop eating them? No.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: SWScorch
more power to you. I agree that the living conditions of livestock are horrible. However, as an athlete, I recognize the importance of eating meat, and I am not going to give up food that I love because some animals are treated badly. And, you can debate the health risks and benefits till the cows come home (heh!), but meat is a great source of protein and red meat is very good for you. I highly doubt all or even most livestock are in such inhumane conditions. Do I wish the ones that are would be treated better? Yes, in a sense. But it also seems silly to treat animals so well that are just going to slaughtered for food anyway. Is that enough for me to stop eating them? No.

Did you know that Carl Lewis, the Olympic gold medalist is a vegetarian?

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: hjo3
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there more to being vegan than just not eating meat? Aren't they forbidden from using leather, eating eggs & cheese and stuff like that? Otherwise, I think you're just a vegetarian.

Correct, but I don't eat eggs or cheese (havent had an egg in a long time anyway).

How big were you before you started all of this?

Weight or age? I am 17.

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I understand doind it for possible health reasons, feeling sorry for meat isn't something I understand.

i think its about feeling sympathetic to the animals that become the meat, rather than simply feeling pity for a steak.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Jzero
Frankly, I think this kind of "political veganism" is despicable. Killing animals is killing animals. If you are against the killing of another living creature, then that's fine, I support that. Stop eating them. But to claim that an animal killed by a hunter or fisherman is somehow more acceptable than an animal killed by a farmer just doesn't make any sense. If you want to improve an industry's practices, then use the political process to try to do so. Think Upton Sinclair.

But killing is killing. Either you are against killing animals for food, or you are ok with it. If you are ok with it, you're not a vegan. I know a guy who claims to be vegan and then he comes in with a venison steak, and he uses the same excuse you do. News flash: You are not a vegan.

Anyway, I support eating a lto of vegetarian/vegan food for health purposes. I eat mostly vegetarian myself, but there is a place in our diet for meats that I won't ignore. And I won't use a logically shaky reason to avoid them.

I can't belive you don't find it more acceptable. Newsflash: It isn't a "farmer" who does the killing anymore. They don't go take a cow from the pasture, take it around back behind the barn, and kill it. You fail to see I am not trying to improve an industry's practice, because I know that myself alone changing to a meatless diet won't change the industry. About the hunting thing, see, I don't hunt. I never have, nor will I ever. I am not your friend who comes in with a venison steak.

How is my reason logically shaky? Do you think the conditions animals are raised in, are acceptable? I hope not. Fact is, I don't eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, eggs, or dairy products of any kind. I also refrain from milk, honey, leather, silk, wool, down, pearls, or any other animal product.
. I was merely saying out of the two different ways of killing animals, I find the hunting way better, but that doesn't mean I SUPPORT it.

 

[OutHouse]

Let me guess, you watched that stupid a$$ film/documentary by John Robbins. I had watch it for a class I took and I have never felt such a strong urge to slap the taste out of somebodys mouth before, if that dumb a$$ was anywhere near me i would have.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Citrix
Let me guess, you watched that stupid a$$ film/documentary by John Robbins. I had watch it for a class I took and I have never felt such a strong urge to slap the taste out of somebodys mouth before, if that dumb a$$ was anywhere near me i would have.

No, I haven't seen one film/documentary on veganism or vegetarianism at all.

 

[amcdonald]

I have plenty of vegan friends, and its just as easy to get fat/maintain weight as it is on a normal diet, sometimes even harder.
vegetarians/vegans tend to overcompensate with high-calorie foods like pastas and nuts to stay get full.
I know a few slightly overweight vegans and most of the incredibly skinny ones are predisposed to that body-type anyway.
Another thing... anyone who knows vegans has probably noticed that their "leavings" are especially foul.
My friends and I use the term "vegan crap"
Have fun being vegan, I myself think stupid animals belong in my stomach.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Jzero
Frankly, I think this kind of "political veganism" is despicable. Killing animals is killing animals. If you are against the killing of another living creature, then that's fine, I support that. Stop eating them. But to claim that an animal killed by a hunter or fisherman is somehow more acceptable than an animal killed by a farmer just doesn't make any sense. If you want to improve an industry's practices, then use the political process to try to do so. Think Upton Sinclair.

But killing is killing. Either you are against killing animals for food, or you are ok with it. If you are ok with it, you're not a vegan. I know a guy who claims to be vegan and then he comes in with a venison steak, and he uses the same excuse you do. News flash: You are not a vegan.

Anyway, I support eating a lto of vegetarian/vegan food for health purposes. I eat mostly vegetarian myself, but there is a place in our diet for meats that I won't ignore. And I won't use a logically shaky reason to avoid them.

I can't belive you don't find it more acceptable. Newsflash: It isn't a "farmer" who does the killing anymore. They don't go take a cow from the pasture, take it around back behind the barn, and kill it.

You're playing word games. These people raise (read: FARM) animals. They are farmers. No, they aren't slackjawed southerners with a straw in their teeth, they are modern business men with efficient, mechanical means of slaughtering many many animals in one shot.
Call them what you will, we are talking about the same people.

You fail to see I am not trying to improve an industry's practice, because I know that myself alone changing to a meatless diet won't change the industry.

Then what is your point?
If you're doing it because you don't believe in killing, then OK.
If you're doing it because you think it's healthy, then OK.
If you're doing it because you're an animal lover, then OK.
But if you're doing it to protest the mistreatment of some of the animals knowing full well that it won't help any of them, what is the point? Wouldn't your time and efforts be better spent lobbying for change?

About the hunting thing, see, I don't hunt. I never have, nor will I ever. I am not your friend who comes in with a venison steak.

How is my reason logically shaky? Do you think the conditions animals are raised in, are acceptable? I hope not. Fact is, I don't eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, eggs, or dairy products of any kind. I also refrain from milk, honey, leather, silk, wool, down, pearls, or any other animal product.

Well that contradicts your earlier statement that you would be willing to eat fish or game if you killed it yourself.

I was merely saying out of the two different ways of killing animals, I find the hunting way better, but that doesn't mean I SUPPORT it.

It is logically shaky because it stands on the same sort of moral relativism people use to justify stealing from Wal-Mart when they wouldn't steal from the local general store. "There's two types of stealing, and I think it's OK to steal from a large corporation because they can afford the loss."
You're saying "There's two types of killing, and I think it's OK to kill animals in a way that I feel is acceptable."

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: SWScorch
more power to you. I agree that the living conditions of livestock are horrible. However, as an athlete, I recognize the importance of eating meat, and I am not going to give up food that I love because some animals are treated badly. And, you can debate the health risks and benefits till the cows come home (heh!), but meat is a great source of protein and red meat is very good for you. I highly doubt all or even most livestock are in such inhumane conditions. Do I wish the ones that are would be treated better? Yes, in a sense. But it also seems silly to treat animals so well that are just going to slaughtered for food anyway. Is that enough for me to stop eating them? No.

Actually I don't know who told you red meat is very good for you, but it's not really the case. Red meat is associated with many health risks and there are better sources of protein.

What makes you doubt that most livestock is subjected to inhumane conditions? Is it simply easier on your conscience that way?

If you don't think it's reasonable to treat animals well that will be slaughtered then why treat other humans well since they are all going to die someday anyway?

A diet that includes meat is not necessarily unhealthy but meat is way too overused in the US and similar cultures. It is much healthier to use it sparingly.

It's much more environmentally responsible to limit your meat intake as well.

 

[nakedfrog]

Dammit, now there's that much more meat I have to eat to make up for you.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Jzero


It is logically shaky because it stands on the same sort of moral relativism people use to justify stealing from Wal-Mart when they wouldn't steal from the local general store. "There's two types of stealing, and I think it's OK to steal from a large corporation because they can afford the loss."
You're saying "There's two types of killing, and I think it's OK to kill animals in a way that I feel is acceptable."

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: flavio
What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

We're not talking about euthanasia. We are talking about the striking down of an otherwise healthy animal in its prime. How is that fair, humane or just regardless of who kills it or by what means?

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: flavio
What's so hard to understand? There's humane treatment and then there's inhumane treatment.

Imagine you had a dog that got deathly ill. Would you be able to see any difference between having it put to sleep by the vet with an injection and say....dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire?

We're not talking about euthanasia. We are talking about the striking down of an otherwise healthy animal in its prime. How is that fair, humane or just regardless of who kills it or by what means?

Bah, who gives a crap when someone shoots bambi? Go protest nature, not farms. From a spider flooding an insect with neurotoxins, to a cheetah tearing into a weak/baby gazelle, nature is all about being unfair and brutal. Get over it and quit feeling sorry for animals that could care less about your existence.