[VC]AMD Radeon R9 390X WCE Speculation Thread

[ShintaiDK]

http://videocardz.com/55146/amd-radeon-r9-390x-possible-specifications-and-performance-leaked
50-65% faster than 290x

If we are to believe those slides, no DX12 support for 290X.

 

[Techhog]

If we are to believe those slides, no DX12 support for 290X.

That's true, but Vesku does bring up a good point. If this is a fake, it's one of the better ones.

 

[Techhog]

700+ for 390x
700 for 390
No way AMD ever gain marker share if thats true.

If that turns out to be true, we should all make sure to thank Nvidia for ruining the market. My guess is that this is for WCE and AIB models will be a bit cheaper but not as fast. Also, no over clocking headroom on WCE.

 

[Paul98]

If we are to believe those slides, no DX12 support for 290X.

So no DX12 support for 970 and 980 also.

 

[Vesku]

Not sure they'd try to distinguish what partial DX12 support 290X will end up with in a slide touting the 390X's new features. Would point to the 390X having a new version of GCN cores, 1.3?

 

[FatherMurphy]

So no DX12 support for 970 and 980 also.

You arrived at that conclusion by looking at a potentially (likely?) fake slide about the 290x's API compatibility?

I think Shintai's point is that these slides are fake because AMD is not likely to say that the 290x lacks Direct X 12 compatibility. In fact, I think AMD has said its 200 series is Direct X 12 compatible.

 

[Hitman928]

Where did people get that the 290(x) doesn't have any dx12 support from those slides? They say that the 390(x) will be the first gpu with full dx12 tier 3 implementation. What does that mean for 290x? I don't know. Doesn't scream fake to me though. Not saying it's real for sure, but that's not something that would stick out as a reason for being fake to me.

 

[FatherMurphy]

Where did people get that the 290(x) doesn't have any dx12 support from those slides? They say that the 390(x) will be the first gpu with full dx12 tier 3 implementation. What does that mean for 290x? I don't know. Doesn't scream fake to me though. Not saying it's real for sure, but that's not something that would stick out as a reason for being fake to me.

The first slide lists a comparison table between the 390x and 290x. At the bottom, under "API support," its lists the 390x as "Direct X 12", and it lists the 290x as "Direct X 11.2."

 

[metalliax]

700+ for 390x
700 for 390
No way AMD ever gain marker share if thats true.

heise.de is a German site and electronics usually cost a good 20-30% more in Europe due to additional distribution and taxes, especially upon first launch.

Let's assume 700$ for Europe (euro and dollar are very close since the euro fell quite a bit in the past 3 months). If that was ~25% uplift, then expect the 390 to cost around $549 in the US upon launch. This seems to be the expected price anyway. Then let's assume the 390x version is $699 / $749, that would put it at ~$875 / ~$949 in Europe.

 

[Stuka87]

The first slide lists a comparison table between the 390x and 290x. At the bottom, under "API support," its lists the 390x as "Direct X 12", and it lists the 290x as "Direct X 11.2."

That doesn't mean there is no DX12 support, it means there isn't full DX12 support. Anandtech has already run DX12 tests with several AMD and nVidia chips. Many chips out now have partial support, but no released chip has full Tier 3 support yet.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The first slide lists a comparison table between the 390x and 290x. At the bottom, under "API support," its lists the 390x as "Direct X 12", and it lists the 290x as "Direct X 11.2."

Yep.

Another oddity is the memory speed. 1.25Ghz. Hynix still only sells 1Ghz. While 1.25Ghz could be in the works, why put it on the card besides for the halo effect.

1Ghz=512GB/sec. 1.25Ghz=640GB/sec To compare a 290X is 320GB/sec. And the 290X isnt exactly lacking bandwidth.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

700+ for 390x
700 for 390
No way AMD ever gain marker share if thats true.

Irrelevant. This bit is where the market gain can actually occur

The Radeon R9 380X will cost $ 400, according to our information, the R9 380 is given as $ 330. Both cards are to be faster than the Radeon Radeon R9 R9 290.

Depending on how much faster both cards are, we're looking at a potential 980 competitor for 150-200$ less.

 

[ShintaiDK]

That doesn't mean there is no DX12 support, it means there isn't full DX12 support. Anandtech has already run DX12 tests with several AMD and nVidia chips. Many chips out now have partial support, but no released chip has full Tier 3 support yet.

Tier 3 means absolutely nothing with Windows 10 and DX11.3, 12.0 and 12.1. To brand one of your previous flagship cards that got DX12 support as DX11.2 only is shooting yourself in the foot. And I dont think AMD would do that.
Not to mention AMD brands iit as DX12 on their own site:
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/r9#

OpenGL is only listed as 4.3 on AMDs site as well.

 

[zlatan]

Not sure they'd try to distinguish what partial DX12 support 290X will end up with in a slide touting the 390X's new features. Would point to the 390X having a new version of GCN cores, 1.3?

The 290X can run every D3D12 sample. It has full support for ROVs, conservative rasterization, typed UAV loads, Texture3D for TR, SAD4, dedicated atomics. Even an HD7970 can do it. This is certainly not partial support for D3D12. I don't understand why is this shocking. Microsoft designed the whole API for Xbox One, which is based on GCN. Every new feature can be used on Xbox (and even more with two command processor).
Fiji will intruduce some new features, but none of these will be accessible from D3D12. There will be a new Mantle for this.

 

[Vesku]

Tier 3 means absolutely nothing with Windows 10 and DX11.3, 12.0 and 12.1. To brand one of your previous flagship cards that got DX12 support as DX11.2 only is shooting yourself in the foot. And I dont think AMD would do that.
Not to mention AMD brands iit as DX12 on their own site:
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/r9#

OpenGL is only listed as 4.3 on AMDs site as well.

These slides are supposedly for an internal 390X pep rally for AMD's AIB partners. "Partial DX 12 support" wouldn't fit very well in that column format and it's not even describing the card they are trying to get their AIBs excited about.

 

[sontin]

Can you give at least a source for this?
Right now there is no way to enable ROV or CR on a current AMD card through a API call.
There are no papers about it from AMD.

 

[metalliax]

The first slide lists a comparison table between the 390x and 290x. At the bottom, under "API support," its lists the 390x as "Direct X 12", and it lists the 290x as "Direct X 11.2."

My guess is that this is for "on the box" marketing. Are 290x sold in retail with DirectX 12 support labeled on the box? I think the claim is that the 390x will be marketed as a DX12 card with full Tier 3 support, on the box. Didn't anyone watch Tommy Boy where the guy is worried about the Guarantee that is listed on the box? That's most likely what this is. This presentation is geared for the AIB partners.

 

[zlatan]

That doesn't mean there is no DX12 support, it means there isn't full DX12 support. Anandtech has already run DX12 tests with several AMD and nVidia chips. Many chips out now have partial support, but no released chip has full Tier 3 support yet.

Actually there is. With GCN the resource descriptors are manually fetched by the scalar ALUs. This means the descriptors are been held in the scalar registers, so it won't use the samplers, and this is what's needed to support RBTier 3. All GCN-based Radeon can support this tier level.

 

[nvgpu]

AMD can't support feature level 12_1, Conservative Rasterization or Rasterizer Ordered Views on any current GCN. Maxwell fully supports both.

https://developer.nvidia.com/content/dont-be-conservative-conservative-rasterization

https://developer.nvidia.com/content/maxwell-gm204-opengl-extensions

 

[ShintaiDK]

These slides are supposedly for an internal 390X pep rally for AMD's AIB partners. "Partial DX 12 support" wouldn't fit very well in that column format and it's not even describing the card they are trying to get their AIBs excited about.

290X supports DX12.0, it doesnt support DX12.1.

AMD also list it as DX12 on their own site. AIBs list its as DX12.

The slide funny enough list the 290X as OpenGL 4.4, while it only supports OpenGL 4.3.

If it was at AIBs only and the 390X supported DX12.1, they would note it.

 

[AnandThenMan]

The 290X can run every D3D12 sample. It has full support for ROVs, conservative rasterization, typed UAV loads, Texture3D for TR, SAD4, dedicated atomics. Even an HD7970 can do it. This is certainly not partial support for D3D12. I don't understand why is this shocking. Microsoft designed the whole API for Xbox One, which is based on GCN. Every new feature can be used on Xbox (and even more with two command processor).
Fiji will intruduce some new features, but none of these will be accessible from D3D12. There will be a new Mantle for this.

This is what I had long suspected would happen, thanks for all the great info.

 

[zlatan]

Can you give at least a source for this?

For Fiji I won't give out anything. Sorry.

There are no papers about it from AMD.

There are many documents from AMD. Here you go: GCN1, GCN2, GCN3, GCN prog guide, GCN1 regref, GCN2 regref. More than 1500 pages about GCN.

If you don't understand it than here is an oversimplified version:
CR: this is an easy target because it is basically a rasterization form but with different interpolation. Most GPUs uses dedicated units for interpolation, but not GCN. The interpolation is already emulated in this architecture, so the only thing is needed is a new compiler unroll routine. Nothing more, nothing less. This is also possible with other architectures, but these are not designed for manual interpolation, so the other IHVs needs some new dedicated units. For example Maxwellv2 has new SFU blocks for this.
ROVs: this is just a memory view ordering option. On GCN the GPU can wait for GDS changes preventing the further shader execution until it will be safe. AMD already support this in OpenGL with GL_INTEL_fragment_shader_ordering. ROVs will be the same.

 

[Hitman928]

Zlatan, you mentioned further exploitation of gcn abilities through a new mantle. I know AMD said that they would continue mantle on more of a partner by partner basis, but it's hard for me to imagine many, if any, developers using it after dx12 and vulkan come out. Do you think this is a path certain developers will take or is it possible the new mantle gets rolled into vulkan in an extension like program as well?

 

[DownTheSky]

Get on with it.
The slides are most likely real.
The 8GB ver will most likely cost $799 because of the larger interposer and more HBM adding costs. They had their hand pushed by nVidia to release this and it's most likely the reason for the launch delay.
The 4GB ver will probably be $649.

If you think AMD will price a much larger and much more complex watercooled GPU, up to 50% faster than a GTX 980, at the same or close price, then you are dreaming.

I like how for nvidia is ok to price Titan @ 999-1300USD (I don't know exactly how much it will cost) but you expect AMD to release a higher performing part with new memory tech at half the price.

Most likely 380X will be GTX 980 competitor and slightly cheaper.

I'm calling it now:

AMD Radeon R9 390X 8GB WCE - $ 799
AMD Radeon R9 390X 4GB WCE? - $ 649
AMD Radeon R9 390 4GB - $ 549 (~ Cut down GM200 perf)
AMD Radeon R9 380X ?GB - $ 449 (~980 perf)
AMD Radeon R9 380 ?GB - $ 349 ( 290X/970 perf)
AMD Radeon R9 370X ?GB - $ 259 (290 perf )
AMD Radeon R9 370 ?GB - $ 199 (280X perf)

Those prices are my lowest estimates.

 

[csbin]

290X supports DX12.0, it doesnt support DX12.1.

AMD also list it as DX12 on their own site. AIBs list its as DX12.

The slide funny enough list the 290X as OpenGL 4.4, while it only supports OpenGL 4.3.

If it was at AIBs only and the 390X supported DX12.1, they would note it.

AMD Catalyst 14.4 Brings Full OpenGL 4.4 Support To Linux
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY2OTY