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Vatican defends pope condoms stand, criticism mounts

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ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,082
188
106
You definitely knew where bush and ragon stood on the issues. I don't have a problem with anyone and their church as long as you don't let it get in the way of politics and decision making. When I here Obama make such statements as were gonna take politics out of science and let science do it's job. I know Obama goes to church and is religious but it makes me happy to hear that.

Obama declared that his administration would "make scientific decisions based on facts, not ideology."

?Today, more than ever before, science holds the key to our survival as a planet and our security and prosperity as a nation,? Obama said in his radio address. ?It?s time we once again put science at the top of our agenda and worked to restore America?s place as the world leader in science and technology.?

Obama said history has shown that the greatest scientific discoveries ? from landing on the moon to inventing the Internet ? didn?t happen without support from the government and its leaders.

Taking a veiled jab at Bush, Obama said the scientific process is about evidence and facts that ?are never twisted or obscured by politics or ideology.?

?It?s about listening to what our scientists have to say, even when it?s inconvenient ? especially when it?s inconvenient,? Obama said. ?Because the highest purpose of science is the search for knowledge, truth and a greater understanding of the world around us. That will be my goal as president of the United States ? and I could not have a better team to guide me in this work.?
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
the church believes that sex should be reserved for the procreation of children within a marriage, thus, condoms are antithetical to that... but if you're a member of the church and actually following its rules, you wouldn't need condoms with a clean partner because you'd only ever be having sex to make babies.

I guess his argument is going to be that condoms provide a false illusion of 100% safety and encourage promiscuous behavior.
Yep, but using the church's argument we shouldn't use seat belts or air bags. They provide a false sense of security! The solution - don't drive! I wonder how they feel when something that's prayed for turns out for the worst? Oh wait, that's gods will. Keep praying, and most importantly, keep paying! :p
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
0
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Phokus
"My reaction is that this represents a major step backwards in terms of global health education, is entirely counter-productive, and is likely to lead to increases in HIV infection in Africa and elsewhere," said Prof Quentin Sattentau, Professor of Immunology at Britain's Oxford University.

"There is a large body of published evidence demonstrating that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection, but does not lead to increased sexual activity," he said.
PFFT, science is just fairy tales, vote republican and donate more money to the church!
Sorry to break it to you, but (D) does not mean athiest. Simply taking the % of Americans that are religious shows that there is no way this is absorbed by the Republican party.

Yes, the fundies are more likely to be Republican, but you dont need to be a fundie to donate money to the Church and believe in God.

Sadly, your normal everyday religious folk support the fundies through donation.
One needs only look to the current (D) president and his fundie/whacky preacher! (And I support Obama)
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: brandonb
Originally posted by: Mani
Can someone explain to me why contraception is considered a sin to these folks? I assume it is because sex is intended only for procreation, so does that mean "pulling out" is also a sin? Or that having sex while the woman is pregnant/ not fertile is a sin? Sorry, but this stuff just seems completely ridiculous.
Because women have billions of eggs and men have millions of sperm. It was God's wishes making it so easy for us to reproduce that we are supposed to be doing that. To use contraceptive means you are going against God's will, and thats why its a sin.
God gave us feet designed to make it easy to walk on, is walking on your hands a sin?
I don't know about that one.

Maybe!
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: loki8481
the church believes that sex should be reserved for the procreation of children within a marriage, thus, condoms are antithetical to that... but if you're a member of the church and actually following its rules, you wouldn't need condoms with a clean partner because you'd only ever be having sex to make babies.

I guess his argument is going to be that condoms provide a false illusion of 100% safety and encourage promiscuous behavior.
Yep, but using the church's argument we shouldn't use seat belts or air bags. They provide a false sense of security! The solution - don't drive! I wonder how they feel when something that's prayed for turns out for the worst? Oh wait, that's gods will. Keep praying, and most importantly, keep paying! :p
I feel like I now completely understand where the amish are coming from.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
0
Originally posted by: brandonb
This must be the weekly anti catholic post.

The Pope is partially right. If people think Condoms = No AIDS in a population that is like 33% AIDS plagued. What do you think is going to happen? We are talking about Africa here, the birth place and highest infection rate of AIDS. The only thing that can help these people is complete abstainence with those who have AIDS. If you go there and say "Condoms = No AIDS"... That will increase sexual relations with those that don't have AIDS and those with AIDS... Granted Condoms help in those cases but that is not the answer to the problem, just a bandaid.

Why is that so hard to understand?
Since abstinence doesn't work, why not provide education and condoms instead?

Originally posted by: brandonb
Because women have billions of eggs and men have millions of sperm. It was God's wishes making it so easy for us to reproduce that we are supposed to be doing that. To use contraceptive means you are going against God's will, and thats why its a sin.
Maybe it's a sin to you and your god. I think you're batshit crazy if you actually believe that.
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
Arguing that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS - with no data to back that up, indeed with reams of data the other way - is manifestly NOT hugely effective in the prevention of AIDS. If the Catholic Church cannot in good faith support an imperfect solution, fine; but they have an obligation to not become part of the fucking problem.

It would seem sensible to me that reducing the risk of self destructive behavior would be considered a good by a church with a culture of life, even if it doesn't eliminate the behavior it views as bad. Back in my Church going days, (silly me) I remember being taught that our body was a temple, and that we should preserve that temple for God in good condition. Is this not shared by the RC Church? If it is shared, isn't less "destructive" behavior morally preferable to more "destructive" behavior?

This is not about telling the Church what doctrine to believe, it's about the Church's stance on the lesser of two evils.

The Church knows that people will sin, even when they know it's wrong. Happens all the time, particularly where sex is concerned. That's why the Church has the whole confession-repentance-forgiveness thing in place, so that sinners have an opportunity to change course. They seem to view contraception as an "extra" sin on top of the extramarital sex. It could be argued that the use of contraception is a greater evil than the exposure to potentially deadly diseases. I can't fathom it as an argument, but it is possible.

In the US, where more than half the population are Christian, and perhaps one-fifth are Catholic, it might seem nearly reasonable for the Pope to say that the answer to AIDS is to become a Catholic, and sexually behave like a loyal Catholic. He says that here, despite the fact that more than half of US Catholics don't follow his orders about sex.

In most of Africa, where most people have no idea what good Catholic sexual behavior is, and many people don't know what a Pope is, it makes no sense at all to jet in, wearing peculiar clothing and tell people that condom use is wrong, and isn't the answer. The Western concepts of fidelity and no sex until marriage are strange to most Africans. This German holy man with the fishmouth hat says the answer to AIDS is to obey him.

 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
18,324
10,187
136
Arguing that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS - with no data to back that up, indeed with reams of data the other way - is manifestly NOT hugely effective in the prevention of AIDS. If the Catholic Church cannot in good faith support an imperfect solution, fine; but they have an obligation to not become part of the fucking problem.
Since we don't have an applause emoticon, you sir get :thumbsup: :thumbsup:




Religious dogma! Fvcking homo sapiens since ~5000BCE!!


 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
774
126
Originally posted by: brandonb
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: brandonb
This must be the weekly anti catholic post.

The Pope is partially right. If people think Condoms = No AIDS in a population that is like 33% AIDS plagued. What do you think is going to happen? We are talking about Africa here, the birth place and highest infection rate of AIDS. The only thing that can help these people is complete abstainence with those who have AIDS. If you go there and say "Condoms = No AIDS"... That will increase sexual relations with those that don't have AIDS and those with AIDS... Granted Condoms help in those cases but that is not the answer to the problem, just a bandaid.

Why is that so hard to understand?
Who the hell teaches Condoms = NO AIDS? Catholics :roll:
:roll: Sounds like to me that no matter what the Pope would say one way another you'd still disagree and :roll: your eyes. So whats the point of of having a discussion?
The pope pretty much said the opposite of what sound science tells us, of course i'm going to :roll:

I think his pope hat is wrapped a bit too tight against his noggin. Crazy old bastard.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
Originally posted by: brandonb
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: brandonb
This must be the weekly anti catholic post.

The Pope is partially right. If people think Condoms = No AIDS in a population that is like 33% AIDS plagued. What do you think is going to happen? We are talking about Africa here, the birth place and highest infection rate of AIDS. The only thing that can help these people is complete abstainence with those who have AIDS. If you go there and say "Condoms = No AIDS"... That will increase sexual relations with those that don't have AIDS and those with AIDS... Granted Condoms help in those cases but that is not the answer to the problem, just a bandaid.

Why is that so hard to understand?
Who the hell teaches Condoms = NO AIDS? Catholics :roll:
:roll: Sounds like to me that no matter what the Pope would say one way another you'd still disagree and :roll: your eyes. So whats the point of of having a discussion?

K, you have to be a troll.

No one can take the Pope making a statement like "Condoms promotes AIDS" and then say that is a perfectly logical statement and anyone arguing with that point must hate the pope.


 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
11,996
1,967
126
:music:

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

:music:
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,010
1
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: ericlp
There is a large body of published evidence demonstrating that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection and other STD's.
Peddle your lies elsewhere. Definitive scientific proof condoms don't work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaZBSZ0xbfk
I wish I could say I was surprised by that, but religious people in general have lowered the bar so much that I expect nothing less than completely and utterly devastating stupidity to come from the mouths and keyboards of believers in god.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,501
1
81
Originally posted by: ericlp
http://www.reuters.com/article...s/idUSLI43220920090318


One reason why religion needs to be kept out of politics!

Thank GOD bush is out of office or he would have backed this up 100%!

How stupid can you be?

Benedict, arriving in Africa, said on Tuesday that condoms "increase the problem" of AIDS. The comment, made to reporters aboard his plane, caused a worldwide firestorm of criticism.

There is a large body of published evidence demonstrating that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection and other STD's.

Duh!
The previous pope, John Paul II said that procreation was the only acceptable purpose for sexual intercourse. So with that in mind, maybe one could work out that the only reason you would have condoms is to have sex and HIV is a STD. If you did not have condoms you would have less sex which means less HIV.
 
Oct 27, 2007
17,010
1
0
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: ericlp
http://www.reuters.com/article...s/idUSLI43220920090318


One reason why religion needs to be kept out of politics!

Thank GOD bush is out of office or he would have backed this up 100%!

How stupid can you be?

Benedict, arriving in Africa, said on Tuesday that condoms "increase the problem" of AIDS. The comment, made to reporters aboard his plane, caused a worldwide firestorm of criticism.

There is a large body of published evidence demonstrating that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection and other STD's.

Duh!
The previous pope, John Paul II said that procreation was the only acceptable purpose for sexual intercourse. So with that in mind, maybe one could work out that the only reason you would have condoms is to have sex and HIV is a STD. If you did not have condoms you would have less sex which means less HIV.
Right. Except that goes against human nature. Every male over the age of about 14 realises this when they start feeling the urge to screw virtually every girl they come across. People will fuck. Silly superstitious beliefs simply are not strong enough to override millions of years of evolution. Ask the all of those Catholic child molesters what happens when you repress your natural human sexual urges.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
It is the norm of almost any religion to preach about the sanctity of marriage and preach against having sex out of wedlock.

Beyond that, there is no biblical basis for the Pope's extreme stand against condom's, birth control, and stem cell research.

A brilliant simply brilliant stance that is making Catholicism an increasingly smaller and more irrelevant part of the world, everywhere but Africa.

And since the Pope also preaches absence of sex for the unwed, as long as the individual in question did not aids from their parents, its a Catholic formula for survival, no condoms needed.
And when one such virgin meets another such virgin of the opposite sex and get married, again no condoms needed. And its a strategy that may well work, because at the rate things are going
in Africa, everyone else will die of aids. As God will strike all sinners dead. And plenty of new children will be needed to repopulate the continent.

Of course one day, some new pope will grow a brain and realize how out of place these Catholic beliefs on birth control and condoms are in the modern world, and change the church stance.
And there will go the argument that we do this because we have always done it.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Yeah, it's time for the weekly bigotry thread and most of the hot runners have already posted in it at that.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
0
Originally posted by: lupi
Yeah, it's time for the weekly bigotry thread and most of the hot runners have already posted in it at that.
Since when is it bigotry to point out stupidity? Sheez...
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: lupi
Yeah, it's time for the weekly bigotry thread and most of the hot runners have already posted in it at that.
Yeah, criticizing the Catholic Church for basically lying about AIDs and proposing a solution that clearly doesn't work is clearly bigotry.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Originally posted by: ericlp
http://www.reuters.com/article...s/idUSLI43220920090318


One reason why religion needs to be kept out of politics!

Thank GOD bush is out of office or he would have backed this up 100%!

How stupid can you be?

Benedict, arriving in Africa, said on Tuesday that condoms "increase the problem" of AIDS. The comment, made to reporters aboard his plane, caused a worldwide firestorm of criticism.

There is a large body of published evidence demonstrating that condom use reduces the risk of acquiring HIV infection and other STD's.

Duh!
The previous pope, John Paul II said that procreation was the only acceptable purpose for sexual intercourse. So with that in mind, maybe one could work out that the only reason you would have condoms is to have sex and HIV is a STD. If you did not have condoms you would have less sex which means less HIV.
Nope. People have sex regardless of the presence of condoms. How the hell do you think HIV became such a big problem in Africa? I'll give you a hint -- it isn't because there were mountains of condoms lying around.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
If you don't like the label then don't do the actions; of which the op is one of the worst.

Besides, I'm only going by the merriam webster definition,
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
8,984
84
91
Hooray! Another Catholicism pile-on!

...oh....wait.... this is a rational discussion about a position that the Vatican is on the wrong side of instead of the usual tripe. False alarm.

Carry on. :)
 

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