Valve head talks digital ownership

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Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
It's amazing how many people think they NEED something physical if they spend a full $60. I guess I thought we were further past that point mentally than we really are...

And the "have to authenticate online" haters need to get over it. It's 2012. Everyone that cares has the internet, and when's the last time your internet went down and you couldn't play a game? If my power goes out I have bigger problems than "dammit, now I can't play Half Life."

Steam is among the least intrusive software I've ever used. The ONLY negative I have is old games aren't marked down (Mass Effect 1 for $20? wtf), and isn't that controlled by the publishers anyway?
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
I have been buying computer games since 1995. Keeping up with boxes gets old. Yea that are nice to look at, but they take up so much space for nothing.

When steam came out, I pretty much stopped buying boxed games. Even though I bought fewer boxed games after November 2004, I still have boxes full of game boxes. It got to the point where I wrote down the cd key on a piece of paper, put the disk into a cd case, and threw the boxes away.

I bought left 4 dead from Best Buy when it went on sale.

Bought my son Black Ops from walmart because it was $5 cheaper at walmart then steam.

Bought Quake 4 on disk from Frys when it came out.

And that has been pretty much it for the boxed games.
 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
It's amazing how many people think they NEED something physical if they spend a full $60. I guess I thought we were further past that point mentally than we really are...

And the "have to authenticate online" haters need to get over it. It's 2012. Everyone that cares has the internet, and when's the last time your internet went down and you couldn't play a game? If my power goes out I have bigger problems than "dammit, now I can't play Half Life."


Never said we "needed" a physical copy - it is more reliable and faster to install though, and it doesn't impact Internet usage caps.

I have digital games, but I have the option of having them backed up on my Computer to install at my leisure without being "Nannied" or "Supervised" when I play.

Online authentication is highly questionable when it's the means to complete your game purchase (.exe file anyone?).


Steam is among the least intrusive software I've ever used. The ONLY negative I have is old games aren't marked down (Mass Effect 1 for $20? wtf), and isn't that controlled by the publishers anyway?

GOG, Humble Indie Bundles, and the now extinct D2D were the least intrusive, there may be others, I don't know.

Steam is a step down from Ubisoft's always online DRM, but it is still DRM Adware/Spyware.


People say we only "License" it, to which I say, as long as I've paid for it I'll run it any damn time I want to - that is MY right.
If this isn't doable then I don't buy it - simple.


.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
I guess your d/l is faster if you stick to those 5 meg indie titles. Otherwise your smocking the crack pipe as with the standard large sized games I can go to tthe store, brring it home, and install from disc quicker than steam installs.

I'm sorry you have such crappy internet service where you live.

Not having to deal with physical media is a total win for me. Not having to deal with the masses of human cattle at the typical retail store is a double win.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,787
10,086
136
Your computer won't be compatible with your game long before lack of physical copy matters. KOTOR, for example, is unplayable for me.
 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
Hyperbole much? Adware / Spyware...yeah right.

Seems I've read on here before that Steam will serve/pop Ads when logging in so - Adware = fact.

Steam monitors usage so - Spyware = fact.


Actually, maybe I should add Malware since it's running while I don't want it too.

.
 
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Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
Seems I've read on here before that Steam will serve/pop Ads when logging in so - Adware = fact.

Steam monitors usage so - Spyware = fact.


Actually, maybe I should add Malware since it's running while I don't want it too.

.

It doesn't "serve" anything. There is a popup upon logging in that will show you news etc, and you can TURN IT OFF.

Monitors what usage? How long I play a game for? Good. It's an interesting stat I check out from time to time and means NOTHING.

I assume you mean it runs while you play games from it. You seriously care about this one? It takes no system resources and even pauses downloads when you have a game open.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
6
81
Seems I've read on here before that Steam will serve/pop Ads when logging in so - Adware = fact.

Steam monitors usage so - Spyware = fact.


Actually, maybe I should add Malware since it's running while I don't want it too.

.

You severly lacking experience with Steam = fact.
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
With the ubiquitous nature of pirate material online I don't think anyone should really be concerned with digital distribution, paying for media these days through steam is more or less just a formality, I know many friends who are still paying for releases through steam, but also downloading the pirate version of the same game because it's better for some reason, either it was released earlier or has some other benefit like not wasting an activation, having bloatware like GFWL hacked out, and stuff like that.

In the same way that I know people who pay for TV subscriptions but then just download the episodes from the internet, if there's still some benefit to downloading it (no adverts, being able to seek through content, pause at will etc) then people are just going to do that instead and actually paying for that content through a distribution partner is merely a formality. Distribution of legit media is tending slowly towards the same quality as pirated material which is good because quite frankly pirated material is unquestionably better in most circumstances, but I think as that happens the lines people draw between consuming their media and actually paying for it will become more and more blurry.

I agree with this. I think Steve Jobs said it best.

“If you want to stop piracy, the way to stop it is by competing with it.”

— Steve Jobs
 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
You severly lacking experience with Steam = fact.

. . . and I intend to keep that way under the current implementation.

I've read enough to know there are issues that shouldn't be there - ever - period.
It's just a "man in the middle" that doesn't need to be there.

It boils down to rights and DRM.
I prefer my rights, others on here obviously don't care and are willing to forfeit them, I'm not.
I don't want even more crap (thank you M$) running on my System than I need too, and I don't want it fouling around with other things (DRM).


Gabe Newell may be the greatest guy around, but he's a Business man and a Politician wrapped into one - you take from that what you will.



.
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
0
0
You must not ever play any games ever with those rules.

Edit: I guess humble bundles are fine.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
6
81
. . . and I intend to keep that way under the current implementation.

I've read enough to know there are issues that shouldn't be there - ever - period.
It's just a "man in the middle" that doesn't need to be there.

It boils down to rights and DRM.
I prefer my rights, others on here obviously don't care and are willing to forfeit them, I'm not.
I don't want even more crap (thank you M$) running on my System than I need too, and I don't want it fouling around with other things (DRM).


Gabe Newell may be the greatest guy around, but he's a Business man and a Politician wrapped into one - you take from that what you will.



.

It sounds like you just refuse to deal with any digital media then. Or most media in general I guess.

Go enjoy Linux and your open source games.
 

wanderer27

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2005
2,173
15
81
You must not ever play any games ever with those rules.

Edit: I guess humble bundles are fine.

Actually, I've got an enormous backlog, and not just Indie Bundles.

I do heavily support various Indie developers though, they're putting out some pretty good stuff these days, some of it better than many AAA titles.

.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
So OK. To start off with, I am no lawyer. Nor do I have any legal formal training to speak of. And I absolutely don’t work for Valve or any other gaming or game distribution company. However, I do have some background which I think might be relevant here. Let me be clear that what follows is merely my speculation and not supported by any insider information on Valve’s inner workings.

After reading the Rock, Paper, Shotgun article, it got me to thinking about a former life in which I worked for the fraud department of a bank. Understand that people are always finding ways “Around” the rules and laws and are always trying to undermine security procedures in order to commit fraud against banking and steal money. The same probably exists for the Software and gaming arenas.

In defense against this, most banks implement ‘fraud detection’ protocols which are intended to detect this type of activity. Usually these protocols are modeled on previous proven fraudulent activity and used as a predictive model to identify potential ‘would be’ fraud perpetrators. One pattern that was proven to be a good indicator of potential fraud is that someone attempts to purchases $1 of gas on a credit card is usually trying to prove that their stolen account is active before going to town on it. How many people do you know that buy $1 dollar in gas? Probably none. And so it is one factor (among many) that the fraud unit looks at as part of their predictive model. It is by no means the only factor as it is possible to be legitimate, and so they look at that AND other factors to make a profile. It doesn’t always catch the bad guys, but it works in pointing the way to looking for other activity, which might lead to catching some.

So how is any of this relevant? In reading the RPS article, we have several facts. The first is that ‘the impacted user purchases a lot of games. This is not a bad thing and most gaming companies may enjoy this as it puts profit into their hands. Additionally s/he, by their own admission, ‘Gifts’ games to other people. The RPS article states that this cannot be known by Valve, yet it can. Digital rights management has existed for a long time and when a license key is activated at a different IP address than it was initially issued, this is seen and monitored by Valve, particularly on games and software that requires an active online connection. Activating on a different IP isn’t ‘illegal’ per say and so doing once or twice is not really that big a deal. However, considering the volume of games that are indicated in the article, we can surmise that that user did this more than once or twice.

So now we have a pattern. High purchases and a significant number of those purchases are spread across multiple IP addresses. This isn’t conclusive proof of anything in and of itself, but I could absolutely see Valve being interested in this behavior. I would bet that, considering the geographic location involved (Russia) is an area of depressed economy where games are routinely sold for lower price than other markets, and is therefore ripe for resale at a profit on the internet and into markets not intended for those lower prices, Valve has every right to be more than a little concerned. Given just this information, I could easily see them choosing to investigate further. Not take action, but investigate.

Now here is where the black box exists. We don’t know for sure what additional information was uncovered in the investigation, and Valve isn’t going to tell. But what if they uncovered the fact that “Most” or all of the games purchased by this user were showing up on other IP addresses. And that several of the “Gifted” license keys were from far across the globe? Ok, again not concrete proof of wrong doing but it would be some additional factors. Now let’s suppose that one or more of the license keys showed up on an IP address where several other “Gifted” license keys from completely separate sources were also showing up. After all, someone who is in the habit of purchasing “cheaper” games on the internet isn’t going to be loyal to one distributor. We don’t have proof here, but there is beginning to be a picture here that any reasonable fraud detection unit might be very uncomfortable with. Now let’s suppose that one of these “Other distributors” was in fact a confirmed fraudulent distributor. So we have a gifted license showing up being used by someone who has a habit of buying from fraudulent sources. This is all speculation, but if anything like it is true can you see how it is reasonable to assume the worst?

I would guess that Value has yet more information that they are not disclosing. And I would also guess that they have reasonable suspicion as to what this user is either doing or considering doing and that Valve’s actions are an attempt to keep the user legal.

I also note that the user didn't bring legal action against Valve. could it be that they know they are doing wrong and are trying to sway things through public opinion, that a court of law wouldn't find favorable? We don't know. Maybe not, but then again, maybe. Certainly if I felt I was robbed of the kind of money the user was claiming they lost out on, I would at least try the legal recourse.

As for Valve’s silence on the matter, I can see how they may not wish to go into detail on how they “Caught” the activity. Would you want to publish all of your secrets on how you catch fraud? I can also see them not wanting to give out anything more than “The company line” in an email, quite probably on advice from the Valve legal team. Why run the risk of opening themselves up to a law suit through loose wording in a publishable document?

And I can see them, when pushed into a corner by public opinion, restoring some functionality to the impacted customer. After all, their message got across.

Point is, crucifying Valve based only some of the facts, and primarily on the information provided by the potentially guilty party member is not really any better than the very attitudes that Valve is being accused of. We don’t know all of the facts. And the facts that we do know, ‘COULD’ paint just as bad a picture for the ‘Offended’ user.

Again, this is merely supposition based on what was presented in the article. I have no knowledge if any of it is fact, and have tried to keep my suppositions within the realm of reason based on facts presented by RPS.
 
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maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
So how is any of this relevant? In reading the RPS article, we have several facts. The first is that ‘the impacted user purchases a lot of games. This is not a bad thing and most gaming companies may enjoy this as it puts profit into their hands. Additionally s/he, by their own admission, ‘Gifts’ games to other people. The RPS article states that this cannot be known by Valve, yet it can. Digital rights management has existed for a long time and when a license key is activated at a different IP address than it was initially issued, this is seen and monitored by Valve, particularly on games and software that requires an active online connection. Activating on a different IP isn’t ‘illegal’ per say and so doing once or twice is not really that big a deal. However, considering the volume of games that are indicated in the article, we can surmise that that user did this more than once or twice.

I was under the impression that what he thought Valve couldn't possibly have known was that he got paid separately for gifting it.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Scenario:

You are at location A your disks are at location B. You want to install and play your game at location A.

Steam 1, Physical Media 0

Scenario: 5 of my last 7 trips I would have been unable to access steam content on a computer with steam and related games installed unless I had went through the process of preloading and making offline settings beforehand and did not want to d/l any new material.

Physical media worked 7 of. 7 times.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
And just to really piss off the fanboi club, almost all of my steam branded games I own via hardcopy so I have shorter install times.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
Physical media worked 7 of. 7 times.

I presume you're referring to standalone physical media, as many games shipped on physical media today are in fact merely vessels for transporting what ultimately is a digital distributed game..i.e Steamworks, Origin, etc. Even when digital distribution services don't apply, activation still plays an important role....early EA, Ubisoft, etc.

Unfortunately standalone physical media, as in media that doesn't ship with the requirement to connect to the internet in any way, is already an endangered species unless your playing on a console. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but when your looking at AAA titles your options are severely limited.
 
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Dankk

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2008
5,558
25
91
Seems I've read on here before that Steam will serve/pop Ads when logging in so - Adware = fact.

Steam monitors usage so - Spyware = fact.


Actually, maybe I should add Malware since it's running while I don't want it too.

.

lol

  1. The pop ups that appear with Steam are merely promotional ads for new games or sales. They can be turned off.
  2. Steam only examines your computer if you tell it to. They do regular hardware surveys, and they'll ask if you want to upload your computer's info to their database. Simply opt out of it.
  3. Steam doesn't have to auto-start with your computer. There's a setting for this too, just like everything else.

While I understand people's reservations with Steam, I have to agree with gothamhunter here. It's become increasingly apparent that the people who complain about Steam are the same ones who fail at using it.
 

thespyder

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2006
1,979
0
0
I was under the impression that what he thought Valve couldn't possibly have known was that he got paid separately for gifting it.

That might very well be the case. And the fact that they can track the digital rights via IP is merely a factor in used to track where the licenses are going.

but lets be reasonable about it. it is "Possible" that s/he is some rich philanthropist who hands out lots of games for free after purchasing them. but if it is the bulk majority of their purchases, how reasonable is that given all the other (hypothetical) facts? And even if it is reasonable, there are other factors in my argument above which make it less reasonable (at least).

"Yes, your Honor. I was found over the body holding the knife. I had blood all over my clothes, And I had a grudge against the victim. Yes i threatened to kill him in front of witnesses and we were the only two in the locked room at the time of the murder. But I didn't kill him."

the scenario I painted above is totally hypothetical on my part and I am not saying anything other than the facts presented in the RPS article are true. merely that given the facts, reasonable explanations can be made to support Valve's postion. and since we don't know all of the facts, should we judge?
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,784
6,343
126
How would you feel if EVERYTHING was subscription based where you would rent the songs, movies, console games, etc even if you bought a hard copy of the item at the store? That's honestly what STEAM is - a rental system.

If STEAM truly wants to offer the best customer service, then we should be allowed to have a DRM Free off line version of the game as we're allowed to have offline versions of songs, movies, etc.


uhh, no.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
6
81
lol

  1. The pop ups that appear with Steam are merely promotional ads for new games or sales. They can be turned off.
  2. Steam only examines your computer if you tell it to. They do regular hardware surveys, and they'll ask if you want to upload your computer's info to their database. Simply opt out of it.
  3. Steam doesn't have to auto-start with your computer. There's a setting for this too, just like everything else.
While I understand people's reservations with Steam, I have to agree with gothamhunter here. It's become increasingly apparent that the people who complain about Steam are the same ones who fail at using it.

Purdy much.
 

gothamhunter

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2010
4,464
6
81
Scenario: 5 of my last 7 trips I would have been unable to access steam content on a computer with steam and related games installed unless I had went through the process of preloading and making offline settings beforehand and did not want to d/l any new material.

Physical media worked 7 of. 7 times.

And the percentage of trips you go on that you bring physical game discs with in the off chance that you decide to install a game that you already do not have installed is....?

What's that? 0%? That's what I figured.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
They seem to be a satellite internet provider. I seriously doubt you're getting download speeds faster than 21 megabytes per second. Do you mean megabits?

They are satellite. Latency is crap but I get pretty good bandwidth most of the time. Here's when I first had it installed:
satspeedtest.png